Woven vs molded linings for cast iron drums

[mhsprecher]

There have been discussions on this topic earlier, but they are a bit dated. The consensus was that molded linings were better for cast iron drums than the woven linings. Of the major parts vendors, only one appears to carry molded linings, so it had me wondering what the current thinking on this topic is?

Fwiw, I am putting cast iron drums on the roadster in my avatar. The TS in the back already has them.

[arnhemmer]

I'm using the molded linings with the cast iron drums. Before they went to disc brakes all modern cars had molded linings with their cast iron drums.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Order the brake shoes with molded linings arched to match new cast iron drums from Randy Gross in California. These linings give a firm pedal feel, while woven linings result in a softer, mushier pedal. I have both and much prefer the molded linings from Randy. Either send in your shoes as exchange cores or pay a little extra and buy the shoes with linings molded in place. Randy arches the shoes so that the brake material makes 100% contact against the brake drum right away instead of seating itself gradually as woven linings require.
Marshall

[Aretino]

Randy restored my rear brakes to include emergency brake components. Randy does excellent work.

[nkaminar]

Which stop better?

My friend in Santa Clara says the woven ones squeak. Has that been the experience of the Barners?

[mhsprecher]

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I have had the drums for a few years. I had the hubs installed and the drums turned. I realize that the shoes need to be arched to the drums. As with most projects, it is more complicated than originally thought.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

I have had the drums for a few years. I had the hubs installed and the drums turned. I realize that the shoes need to be arched to the drums. As with most projects, it is more complicated than originally thought.

Milford, you are very correct. As research towards accurate or authentic restorations have been done over the past decade or so, it is realized just how good original Model-A brakes truly were when they are as they came from the factory. To correctly restore a set of brakes to make them "as good as original" is definitely more complicated than most hobbyists thought, -or think. It honestly requires more jigs, fixtures, and tooling to restore them correctly than most hobbyists have access to.

[Bob Bidonde]

I tried molded linings, but I am going back to woven linings. The molded linings produce too much brake dust that shows on my Tacoma Cream wheels. Moreover, I find that the woven linings give better panic stopping with my cast iron drums.

[Dick Carne]

I have had both on our Town Sedan with cast drums. After the first thousand miles the woven linings had essentially glazed over making stopping a real challenge. I’ve since converted to the molded shoes and no longer have issues. Hope this helps.

[P.S.]

This is a topic in this coming Saturday's video.

The bonded shoes have a lot more grip against the cast iron drums than woven, and I kinda talk about that and show it.

Bonded shoes on stock steel drums don't seem to work as well, so woven appears to be the way to go on steel drums.

[nkaminar]

Paul, I am looking forward to your video. I get conflicting reports on the two types of shoe linings. Right now I have the molded shoes but I am always interested in alternatives. Some actual engineering quantities, like a coefficient of friction for the two for both new and used, would be nice. But that may be asking too much.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Paul, I am looking forward to your video. I get conflicting reports on the two types of shoe linings. Right now I have the molded shoes but I am always interested in alternatives. Some actual engineering quantities, like a coefficient of friction for the two for both new and used, would be nice. But that may be asking too much.

OOF! Well, I hadn't really gone into that much detail. Sorry, man. Although I am an engineer, and such things interest me, pretty sure about 99% of my audience would tune out if I went for that much detail.

[duke36]

Have had some rivets on the woven linings loosen or weren't installed properly.
Gross recommends bonded with their ci drums.

[nkaminar]

Paul, I guess that puts me in the 1 percent although my bank account doesn't know that.

For future reference, the coefficient of friction can be measured by putting the sample on a piece of cast iron or steel and raising one end until the sample slips. The coefficient of friction is the tangent of the angle when the sample slips. The amount of weight on the sample does not change the physics or math but more weight may change the coefficient of friction.

[Patrick L.]

I think you'll prefer the bonded/moulded material with cast drums.

If you feel the need to arc the shoes and have trouble finding a place to do it, I tape sand paper to the drum and 'wiggle' the shoes against the sand paper carefully until full contact is made.

[whirnot]

I have three different types on different cars. All with new cast iron drums and a complete brake overhaul. All shoes were arced to the new drums. My roadster has molded linings. My pickup has the original style Woven.
And my Town Sedan has the "soft" woven linings that Berts sells.

All do a good job stopping the Vehicle.
The Original style Woven are a little too grabby in my opinion. They lock up pretty easily. They also squeek the loudest.

The Sedan with the soft woven, also do a great job stopping, are a little quieter. They do squeek once in a while.

The roadster with the molded definitely take the most pedal pressure in a normal situation, even though it is the lightest car. They don't make any Noise.

Personally I like the Soft Woven the best.

In my opinion molded linings do not work better that woven, quite the opposite

[ABento]

Now that this discussion is up and running I'll jump in, I'm working on a 34 1 1/2 ton truck with mech brakes and woven linings, it has a soft pedal, doesn't stop and even has a vacume assist booster on it, it'll slow toy down but if it had a load on it you better drag your swamper to stop, everything is adjusted up pretty snug and still not much help, is the bonded lining the answer on this.

[Marshall V. Daut]

ABento -
Read posting #3 in regards to a soft brake pedal. There's your answer - or at least it was for me.
Marshall

[ABento]

I read all the posts but a lot of the posters say the woven works better in the steel drums of which is what is on the truck, I had been thinking of going bonded but the brake place I use that has been in business for 50 years or so says the woven is what they use on crane drums and its the best, I wanted to see what you guys thoughts were on this, it is kind of explained from reading the above posts.

[ModelA29]

I wonder if the removal of asbestos from brakes has had an effect of their stopping distance or fade resistance.

[Fordestes]

Anybody used the made in Germany molded linings that are sold by sniders? I am changing to cast iron drums and am thinking about trying them, any opinions on those particular linings ?

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

I wonder if the removal of asbestos from brakes has had an effect of their stopping distance or fade resistance.

Asbestos-alternative brake linings are more expensive but have equivalent or better performance.

[nkaminar]

Hey Alex, What is the source for the asbestos alternative brake linings?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Fordestes

Anybody used the made in Germany molded linings that are sold by sniders? I am changing to cast iron drums and am thinking about trying them, any opinions on those particular linings ?

I have Snyder's molded brake linings on my Town Sedan. I didn't know they were made in Germany until I read your post. I believe they work better than the woven linings I had on the car previously. I have Cast Iron drums.

I did notice they squeal a little when cold but that goes away after a couple of stops. And they smell.

[updraught]

Asbestos use has been banned here but not in the US it seems, tho unlikely to be used now.
https://www.theasbestosinstitute.com...in-brake-pads/

You never know where it will turn up.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...ials/100604278

[nkaminar]

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Don't breath asbestos dust. When you die it will take 3 days to cremate you.

[mhsprecher]

I appreciate all the comments. I replaced the rear brake shows with woven linings I got from a fellow club member. We shall see. I took it on a test drive and everything seemed fine except that my left rear shoes are too tight in the drum. Quite the learning experience for me. As much as I love the Les Andrew red book, his section on replacing rear brakes shoes is not very complete.

One related question: The red book says that when you use the brake centering tool to bend the tabs on the shoes if they are not centered. What tabs is he talking about? I didn't see them.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

One related question: The red book says that when you use the brake centering tool to bend the tabs on the shoes if they are not centered. What tabs is he talking about? I didn't see them.

I believe he is referring to bending the roller tracks to center the shoes, not the bending the shoes themselves.

[Ayers1]

I remember years ago they made a cast iron ring that pressed on the steel drums. They supposedly made a huge difference. Are they still available or is cast drums the only option? Just curious.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Ayers1

I remember years ago they made a cast iron ring that pressed on the steel drums. They supposedly made a huge difference. Are they still available or is cast drums the only option? Just curious.

Yes, the brake drum reinforcing band for the steel drums are still available from some vendors.

[Ayers1]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Yes, the brake drum reinforcing band for the steel drums are still available from some vendors.

Thanks!

[mhsprecher]

Update: I picked up some woven linings from a Model A club friend for my back brakes. I got everything done, but my driver's side drum was too tight, so I couldn't take my car to the show the next day. I disassembled the brakes and sanded the linings some. I also adjusted the brake rod and added an extra axle shim as I could see that the linings were rubbing agains the new drums. That seemed to do the trick and on the short test drive, I have lots of brake pedal and good stopping. I will drive it some more tomorrow and I should be good to go for the parade on July 4.

[dmar836]

Update? This is a job I have coming up.
D

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

In late 1931, ford introduced cast iron drums for front wheels only. I have never heard any comments on them recommending anything other than regular woven linings

[Synchro909]

I scratched my head over this question a while ago. I decided to buy the drums already mounted on hubs from Randy Gross. He advised woven linings in cast drums. I took him at his word.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I scratched my head over this question a while ago. I decided to buy the drums already mounted on hubs from Randy Gross. He advised woven linings in cast drums. I took him at his word.

Really? The brake shoes Randy sells are Molded and Bonded.

[old31]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Paul, I guess that puts me in the 1 percent although my bank account doesn't know that.

For future reference, the coefficient of friction can be measured by putting the sample on a piece of cast iron or steel and raising one end until the sample slips. The coefficient of friction is the tangent of the angle when the sample slips. The amount of weight on the sample does not change the physics or math but more weight may change the coefficient of friction.

Oh my head hurts. Samples, angles, coefficients, weights, slipping, physics, cast iron, steel, tangents.

[Mel Gross]

All of the brake shoes in our stock and every job that leaves are shop are of a soft composite material and bonded. Both the leading and trailing edge of the shoes are chamfered. We have been using the same material for close to 20 years now with great success.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

One related question: The red book says that when you use the brake centering tool to bend the tabs on the shoes if they are not centered. What tabs is he talking about? I didn't see them.

My Mintex Brake Service Guide says:

"The most common cause of chatter and groans is the lack of centralisation of the brake shoes due to wear of the shoe support bracket"

It says you can use an over size pin of 0.020 in the rollers of the brake shoe (oversized pins have a depression in the head)
Or
"The worn ears of the shoe support bracket may be bent upward. A small crescent wrench is a handy tool for this"

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I scratched my head over this question a while ago. I decided to buy the drums already mounted on hubs from Randy Gross. He advised woven linings in cast drums. I took him at his word.

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

All of the brake shoes in our stock and every job that leaves are shop are of a soft composite material and bonded. Both the leading and trailing edge of the shoes are chamfered. We have been using the same material for close to 20 years now with great success.

Now, I'm really confused.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Now, I'm really confused.

Don't be... Listen to Mel/Randy Gross, the man that sells them. Randy's brakes a the best!t

[Synchro909]

I asked Randy's advice. I did not buy shoes or linings from him. I bought the linings and lined my own.
From all of this, I conclude that while he might sell the other type of lining, he thinks woven ones are fine. Maybe I'm wrong and it would be good to get it straight from him mouth. I am happy with the brakes on my cars. Some are from Mr Gross, some are not. I don't see much difference.

[dmar836]

I just tig welded one of my rears today. Have yet to mill it down but I cannot imagine favorable results from bending the tabs up creating non horizontal tabs. I have relatively little experience but of the brakes I've disassembled, they have all been found in "that oughta work" condition.
It's no wonder there is so much support for hydraulic brakes, floaters, etc. - anything to go from where we are rather than backing up to where we should have been and correcting decades of blissful neglect. These are nearly 100 year old cars!

Now I just need to figure out the measurements to know how much to remove. Had the red book but it's long gone.
D

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I asked Randy's advice. I did not buy shoes or linings from him. I bought the linings and lined my own.
From all of this, I conclude that while he might sell the other type of lining, he thinks woven ones are fine. Maybe I'm wrong and it would be good to get it straight from him mouth. I am happy with the brakes on my cars. Some are from Mr Gross, some are not. I don't see much difference.

See post #38??