running with no thermostats

[47topless]

Doing some work on my recently purchased 1947 Ford V8 and discovered that there are no thermostats installed in the engine. Other than effecting the temperature in the heater, is there a reason that the PO was running without thermostats?
Thank you, Phil

[Lanny]

If Henry Ford was here today, I bet he would say,
Don't you dare run your flathead without any thermostats





.

[hotrodart]

Originally Posted by 47topless

is there a reason that the PO was running without thermostats?
Thank you, Phil

Seems like a good question to ask the PO......

[tubman]

The reason is that back in the day, a rumor got started that removing the thermostats from an engine that runs hot will solve the problem. A lot of people that should know better, don't. Old wives tales die hard.

This, and the fact that it is very easy to do contributed to the myth. In addition, the fact that it is more difficult to install the thermostats and keep them in place on pre-'49 flathead fords than most other cars doesn't help either.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

The reason is that back in the day, a rumor got started that removing the thermostats from an engine that runs hot will solve the problem. A lot of people that should know better, don't. Old wives tales die hard.

This, and the fact that it is very easy to do contributed to the myth. In addition, the fact that it is more difficult to install the thermostats and keep them in place on pre-'49 flathead fords than most other cars doesn't help either.

Well, I'm not 100% convinced....
I had one car, a '34 coupe in which I'd rebuilt the engine, re-cored the radiator and rebuilt the pumps. Guys that know me, know I don't skimp / cut corners. That car would always push a little fluid out of the radiator after a decent drive. Removed the thermostats and no more issues.
No, I can't explain the "why", but it worked. If I didn't know who built this car, I'd suspect underlying issues.

[51woodie]

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When I bought my '46 Super Deluxe, I went over a lot of items on the engine, to determine what work I needed to do on it. When I pulled the upper rad hoses, I found one stat in place, and the other cocked sideways in the hose. They were 160 deg., but two different types. I replaced them with 160's from Carpenter, and to hold them in place I got a short piece of rad hose (NAPA NBH 609), cut two pieces about an inch long, and inserted one in the engine end of each upper hose (they fit snug), pushing them in until the depth matched the height of the spigot on the cylinder head. By doing this, the stats are held in place by the lip formed with the inserted pieces. I found the engine (stock) ran too cold, so I switched the 160's to 180's. It runs at +/- 180, and no overheating issues. I keep the coolant level in the rad just above the tops of the tubes, and have yet to lose any coolant, with a 4psi cap.
Didn't someone say that Henry never put more on a car than was needed?

[Automotive Stud]

I tried the whole no thermostat thing when I was new to flatheads. The only thing I got was a car that wouldn't get over 120* when it was cold and ran 190* when it was hot out. I put 170*'s in it and it stays at 170* in all temperatures.

[47topless]

Originally Posted by hotrodart

Seems like a good question to ask the PO......

Great suggestion but I purchased this car from a dealer and PO contact info not available.

[51504bat]

Been a while since I had Skip rebuild a set of 8ba pumps but IIRC the paperwork he sent back with the pumps said to not run thermostats. But as i said its bee a while.

[tubman]

Bottom line? If your car runs better all around without thermostats, there's something else wrong (dirty block or radiator, eroded impellors, cracked head or block, etc.).

[mcgarrett]

When I built my '40 engine 25 years ago, I took extra time to make sure all the old core sand had been dug out from the water jackets, especially at the rear of the block. After that, I had the block baked at high temperature in a commercial oven at a machine shop that builds racing engines. The baking process turned all the scale and mineral deposits remaining in the water jackets into fine dust and was easily blown out with compressed air. After that, the machine shop then shot-blasted the block in a shot-blast cabinet and I can tell you that block was clean. I run Speedway water pumps and NO thermostats and have had no overheating problems - I live in Texas, so I know about hot! I check the temperature occasionally with a thermometer just for peace of mind, and have never seen it go over 180. I don't advocate running a flathead without thermostats, I just think it should be considered case-by-case based on the engines' condition. If your engine can handle them, by all means use them.

[ronn]

Ive run many cars wo thermostats.......

theyve always run cooler, so there you go.....

[Krylon32]

I tried no stats in the first 59AB I had built/ The motor tended to run hot which I attributed to the water moving to fast thru the radiator. I installed stats and the motor ran cooler at a more manageable temp.

[Mart]

Millions of people drive billions of miles every year, and every one of those miles is done in a car with thermostats fitted. Every car that rolls off a production line has thermostats.

What is so special about a flathead Ford that would make it an exception to the norm?

Run stats. It helps the motor in many ways.

Mart.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by ronn

Ive run many cars wo thermostats.......

theyve always run cooler, so there you go.....

Running cooler is NOT better. You may be proud of your engine that runs at 140 all of the time, but the engine isn't.

[miniceptor86]

This we’ll be another myth but I was told that the thermostats not only got the engine up to proper operating temperature quickly but even open they restricted the flow so that the coolant spent enough time in the radiator to transfer the heat it had absorbed. But we weren’t talking about flatheads.

[DavidG]

As far as what Henry would think, what about the millions of engines Ford produced before adding thermostats in 1934? He must have changed his mind.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by DavidG

As far as what Henry would think, what about the millions of engines Ford produced before adding thermostats in 1934? He must have changed his mind.

I believe this proves the point. If everything had been fine, he never would have added them. He did not waste money on frivolous things.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by tubman

Bottom line? If your car runs better all around without thermostats, there's something else wrong (dirty block or radiator, eroded impellors, cracked head or block, etc.).

Tubman, I think you at the very least, know my reputation. I don't do things half as---. The '34 was done to perfection. No stats cured the overflow issue.
That car is still going strong w/o stats.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Kube

Tubman, I think you at the very least, know my reputation. I don't do things half as---. The '34 was done to perfection. No stats cured the overflow issue.
That car is still going strong w/o stats.

Being an "8BA" guy, I have little knowledge of the early cars that came from the factory without thermostats (per "David G"'s post). There may well be something in the design of those earlier engines that was different enough to cause the overflow problem when thermostats were used. Therefore I will defer to you on this.

However, the O/P was asking about his '47 Ford (which did come from the factory with thermostats). Since the great majority of the members here have later model engines, I stand by my opinion.

[Flathead Fever]

The engine will last longer if it operates at a constant temperature, The parts are not expanding and contracting and changing their clearances. A fully opened thermostat will easily flow enough coolant for a good radiator to remove the heat and the flatheads have two of them, where all the other V8s only have one.

[Don T]

Perhaps I could provide more info on the discussion on thermostats; it seems that all stats perform well based on temperature alone, however has anyone considered the issue of flow or volume passing a wide open thermostat, My experience follows, new clean engine, new NAPA stats (160), the rad burped on a drive on a hot day. One stat had not opened, stuck I assume, I replaced with the original 170 stat that came with the truck. It was better, still ran to warm though. I had had overheating problems pulling a trailer so I decide to match up the stats and put all new stats in. I compared at wide open, the opening size of (for flow) the original Ford stats versus the new one I had installed (160) It looked like at wide open condition the opening of the original stat volume was about double that of the new replacement. I installed all new high flow stats and my temps did definitely drop, however this needs to be confirmed on a real hot day. This is just further info on the never ending flathead overheating discussion.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Krylon32

I tried no stats in the first 59AB I had built/ The motor tended to run hot which I attributed to the water moving to fast thru the radiator. I installed stats and the motor ran cooler at a more manageable temp.

I just knew we'd get here eventually.

[mfirth]

My 8BA had 160s in it when I got the car and ran hot. I replaced them with180s and it ran 180 to 190 in any weather. Tried it without stats and it ran hot on hot days & cold on cooler days. .02 cents or nonsense, you choose......

[ronn]

this topic is akin to synthetic vs standard motor oil. we all have our own experiences and opinions.

not much diff then politics. we know what we know......

I had a buddy who had over 30 years of ASE experience. He sold me his taurus, which always ran hot. Told me I couldnt remove the thermo to cool it down, because the computer wouldnt let the engine run. I removed the thermo, it ran 10 degrees cooler and told him to hop in. Lets go for a ride.
sometimes thats just how it works out. Yes, running cooler may not always be better- but many times it is.

[pistonbroke]

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I wish I had a part number or a photo of one but back in the 80's I was doing a complete rebuild of a 46 Lincoln V12 to put in my 38 Zephyr. It had thermostats in the upper hoses like a pre 48 V8 ford. They did not look like a normal stat. They had 2" brass fingers so to speak that ran down the hose to hold them in the correct position/orientation and the opening was larger then any I have ever seen. I always look for them at swaps and flea markets but no luck as of yet. I believe there is a flow issue with some of the off shore units I see these days and if it wont stay seated properly anyway , you have a problem. As for burping coolant , don't over fill the radiator, just above the upper hose port on the top tank should be adequate in most cases. You should also let it cool down before shutting down. Just my two cents, Tim

[marko39]

My first car a 59 ford never ran hot but we were under the impression that cool was better and would remove the stat for the summer. I remember seeing the milky oil on the dipstick and wondered what caused it.

[tubman]

I think that there may be a problem with currently available thermostats (probably made off-shore) similar to the problem with current condensers.

Poor design and quality.

[collinrestores]

I've been running no thermostats in my '36 since last summer, but only because that was one of the things I tried to keep it cool before I had the radiator recored. New radiator + Thermocure in the water jackets for several days got it cooling much better, but still overheated on occasion. Now in the winter it easily stays at 160, but at some point I'll probably experiment with thermostats again.

Not sure whether the generic 160 degree thermostats I bought will work well. I will have to trim them down to fit the upper hoses. I'm sure the original Ford thermostats were designed in a particular way to have the correct flow.

[Flathead Fever]

Originally Posted by ronn

this topic is akin to synthetic vs standard motor oil. we all have our own experiences and opinions.

not much diff then politics. we know what we know......

I had a buddy who had over 30 years of ASE experience. He sold me his taurus, which always ran hot. Told me I couldnt remove the thermo to cool it down, because the computer wouldnt let the engine run. I removed the thermo, it ran 10 degrees cooler and told him to hop in. Lets go for a ride.
sometimes thats just how it works out. Yes, running cooler may not always be better- but many times it is.

I was 30-year ASE Master mechanic, ASE Heavy Truck Master Mechanic, ASE CNG Mechanic, ASE Parts Specialist and a couple more. For one thing, any idiot can go get a study guide and go pass those tests, they do not make you a "Master Mechanic". I was also a licensed Smog Tech. I was also contractor with the State of CA, helping write the smog test questions for the smog license. The computer-controlled cars have to reach operating temperature for the computer to go into "closed loop". That is when it is taking in info from the input sensors and making adjustments to the fuel and timing. If it does not reach operating temperature, because of a stuck open or incorrect thermostat, it will set a code and turn on the light. The engine will run okay but the computer will not be fine tuning the fuel ratio based off of the oxygen sensor. An engine emits more emissions when it is "not" at the designed operating temperature and if cannot go into closed loop it will get poor fuel mileage. The kid at the parts store will ask you if you want a 160,180- or 192-degree thermostat. The catalog does not say which one was original equipment for you vehicle. If you install the 160 on a modern engine, you're going to have a check engine light and poor fuel mileage The manufacturers want the new cars running close to 200 degrees. A flathead driven on warm

We had a fleet of 400 vehicles, some of them they kept for twenty-years. I saw a lot of heating problems over the 30-years. I found way more thermostats that failed for sticking open than closed. We had a steep hill by the shop we used for road tests. If a vehicle's temp was okay driving on the flat ground but would overheat climbing that hill, it was almost a plugged radiator. If we suspected a thermostat, we would heat up water in the boss's coffee cup to see if the thermostat would open. If we were replacing the radiator, we always replace all the hoses and the thermostat. Green 50/50 coolant needs to be changed every two-years and nobody does it.

The two vehicles with cooling problems issues that kicked my butt. One was where the impeller on a new water pump was slipping. The other was an F-800 that I had diagnosed the radiator as being plugged and sent it out for a new core. They re-cored it and it still overheated. I replaced everything associated with the cooling system and it still overheated climbing the test hill. We used two different radiator venders. I was at the other shop run by an old-timer. I was dropping off another radiator and I asked him about the F-800 radiator. He said, did they use the small tube or big tube core? That was the problem. Never assume that a new part is okay. We had a lot of new thermostats that would fail to open. We always tested the new ones first in hot water with an infrared thermometer. You never know what has been done to these old cars. But you know they came from the factory "not" overheating. If you start changing the original design from the factory, you're not fixing not problem.

My dad said every summer they would tow a trailer from North Dakota to CA, across the 100-degree desert with an almost new '53 Merc and it never overheated.

[aussie merc]

here we go again this has been around the track more times than pharlap; basically an engine is designed to operate in a specific temperature range and thats the thermostat job! Without going into a discussion that could be used as a thesis for a degree in HYDRO THERMO DYNAMICS . Henry didnt do anything that cost money he didnt need to and as a rule they all left the factory WITH thermostats . So if its overheating somethings wrong or your trying to operate the vehicle outside its design. Down here in Aus they run hot. Why we are to close to the equator and they dont have enough cooling capacity in reserve [in winter no problem in summer you have to watch that gauge and drive to suit ] So for what its woth my 2 cents worth is run thermostats onl trick is the temp range and how big the hole [Flow] is when they open.

[47topless]

The original post simply asked why the PO of the car was running the engine without thermostats. The reasons for running with thermostats seem rather obvious.

[Jacques1960]

No stats on my ‘36; runs just right with Skip’s rebuilt pumps. Who knows. I live in Maine, but never drive after Halloween, by which time, traditionally, roads have salt / grit. YMMV.

[aussie merc]

curiosity question? Does anyone know the dia of the valve [hole] in an early 24 stud [center outlet] butterfly style thermostats as factory fitted .

[baceves]

My 47 Ford doesn't have thermostats and is running great and fortunately never had an overheating problem in the 35 years I've owned it. As i started to get more educated on the subject i was going to add them around 15 years ago but i said to myself why should I if my car has never had a problem.

[47topless]

Originally Posted by baceves

My 47 Ford doesn't have thermostats and is running great and fortunately never had an overheating problem in the 35 years I've owned it. As i started to get more educated on the subject i was going to add them around 15 years ago but i said to myself why should I if my car has never had a problem.

And there you have it.

[tubman]

Not entirely. The problem with not running thermostats is not overheating; it is running too cold with the attendant sludge and premature wear problems. Admittedly, the great majority of us do not drive our vehicles enough miles for this to become a serious problem, but it's there.

[47topless]

Originally Posted by tubman

Not entirely. The problem with not running thermostats is not overheating; it is running to cold with the attendant sludge and premature wear problems. Admittedly, the great majority of us do not drive our vehicles enough miles for this to become a problem, but it's there.

Now that is a very good reason to try and make the stats work in your car.
In my case, I know that the engine runs fine without them, and that I will never know why the PO was running without, but, it seems like a good idea to go ahead and install a pair and see what happens.
This was a good discussion. Thanks to all for your input.
Phil

[mcgarrett]

tubman is right. Thermostats stabilize the coolant to the desired operating temperature for the engine so as to help alleviate the formation of sludge, allow proper oil pressure and flow to vital areas of the engine, and to help atomize fuel for a more efficient burn and less carbon deposits. Quoting an old hot rodder..."heat is horsepower".

[Ken Henry]

I convinced myself long ago that my flathead ran cooler with high flow thermostats. Mr Gasket makes some that fit the 8BA. Thermostats are nice because your oil warms up quicker, burning off fuel contamination that gets past the rings into the oil (especially when cold).

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Kube

Well, I'm not 100% convinced....
I had one car, a '34 coupe in which I'd rebuilt the engine, re-cored the radiator and rebuilt the pumps. Guys that know me, know I don't skimp / cut corners. That car would always push a little fluid out of the radiator after a decent drive. Removed the thermostats and no more issues.
No, I can't explain the "why", but it worked. If I didn't know who built this car, I'd suspect underlying issues.

Coolant expands when hot (meaning at operating temperature of say, 180 deg.). Without thermostats your engine never got up to operating temperature so the coolant didn't expand as much. After your car pushed out that coolant, did the level then stay the same?
How long did that engine last before showing blow-by and using oil? Cold running engines don't fully vaporize the fuel so oil is washed off the cylinders by raw gasoline, which wears the rings and cylinder walls faster.

[SoCalCoupe]

Just to prove how ignorant I really am, I'll ask, how do you install thermostats in a 1941 Ford?


Pull off the upper radiator hoses, set the thermostats in the heads with the 'umbrella' right side up and reinstall the hoses? Are there any other parts involved?


My car doesn't have them but I want see what happens if I install them like Henry did.

[JayChicago]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoupe

Just to prove how ignorant I really am, I'll ask, how do you install thermostats in a 1941 Ford?

Pull off the upper radiator hoses, set the thermostats in the heads with the 'umbrella' right side up and reinstall the hoses? Are there any other parts involved?

Yes. That's all there is to it. No other parts involved.

Have heard that some cheap hoses will allow the stat to be pushed up the hose. In that happens you could add another hose clamp just above the stat to squeeze the hose slightly.

[ford38v8]

In re-reading this old thread, the same old wives tales are here, so in an effort to clear up some alternative facts...

Water too fast: Simply stated, if X gallons per minute flow through the radiator, that same speed is how fast they flowed through the block. It's heat transfer will EQUAL that of water flowing XX gallons per minute. ½ the heat per gallon, but twice as many gallons = equal heat transfer, fast or slow.

Will a thermostat maintain the temperature rating of the stat? Not gonna happen. A stat will simply open at it's temp rating, it has no control over temps beyond that rating. What it will do, is to close while coasting downhill on a cool day, in an effort to preserve engine operating temps. I can't picture a scenario where 160 stats would be better than 180 stats, except perhaps the parts department selling fake news.

[drolston]

I had no end of problems getting the big inch flathead in my '41 coupe to run cool, both at idle in traffic and at 60+ on the highway. Tried everything, including removing thermostats, which as an engineer, I knew would be no help. Final solution was fixing the leaks, cleaning, and straightening the fins on the truck radiator that came with the car. Then I put the 170 thermostats back in to keep the engine running from running too cool, which is bad from both efficiency and longevity.



Took it out for a hard run two weeks ago when it was 95 degrees. Never got over 180 stuck in traffic or at 65 on the interstate. In summary, test your thermostats by putting them in a pan of warm water with a candy thermometer and heat the water up until you see them start to open at the rated temperature. If they check good, install them and forget about them, regardless of any overheat issues you are fighting.

[big job]

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I come from the day when permanent anti freeze was not common. My father bought Zerone alcohol by the barrel. 160 stats where used. In hot weather I remember mainly Chryser product 30-40s ran hot with no stats could be their honey comb radiators. So we found themostats cured the problem as well as Ford products. The radiator NEEDS time to cool, simple as that. No stats in cold weather dripping tail pipe water, cold and warm causes sludge. I have yet to see model Ts with sludge cause they run at scary temperatures just about boiling...

[38 coupe]

The idea that water moving too fast through the radiator causes overheating is just plain wrong.
Heat transfer increases with mass flow rate. Said in plain English, the more coolant you can flow the more heat you can get out of the motor.
The origin of water moving too fast is from 1950s racers who were using stock used radiators with no pressure caps. A good flathead water pump at high rpm can pump more water than a marginal radiator can gravity flow. The pumps will force water out the overflow. If you are driving your car at 4000+ rpm with a marginal radiator then you may have too much flow. Everyone else should maximize flow.

[Planojc]

If you want an opinion, this is the place to be.