Cam and Lifter failures

[ms fowler]

I am building a stock 200 Falcon Six ( sorry--not a V8)--but I think this problem is becoming a universal one......

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

He related several engines he has build using flat tappet cams with cams and lifters coming from well-known US manufacturers all failed within 12 minutes on the dyno. Its not EVERY engine, but a significant percentage that fail. His response has been to recommend roller cams.

He also noted that he only buys all his parts from US distributors with whom he has worked for 40 years. Recently, some cams and lifter sets come in plain white boxes with no markings at all. He has asked his suppliers and they tell him that is the way they come, now. He suggested that any parts that come in plain white unmarked boxes be refused / not accepted and returned.

I asked him about using zinc-rich oil and he agreed, but still he sees failures.

He says old parts in good shape are better than new.

I told him I will be using oem springs--they all tested to meet the FSM specs and he said that would work in my favor. Accept that the engine will never spin over 4500-5000 rpm and I should be better off.



So--here i am asking if that fits with all your experience? My machine shop has been doing this work for over 40 years--he build some rare and exotic stuff--so don't just blame him. I am asking about your experience.

[BW]

Use a good break in oil, it should have ZDDP in it. Break the cam in first. On my 289 I ran the engine for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM's. When you change the oil use only a good gasoline motor oil with ZDDP in it. Like Lucas Hot Rod & Classic or Valvoline VR-1. I use 10w-30. Do not use a ZDDP Additive or Diesel oil. Non ZDDP Motor oil and Diesel oil have detergents that will remove the ZDDP. If you want more information on this topic, check out Lake Speed Jr. on U Tube. He works for Seal Power and he's pretty much the go to guy on ZDDP and oil and the proper way to break in a engine.

[KULTULZ]

Her is a brief tutorial on the subject -

https://www.eatonbalancing.com/2012/...lure-causes-2/

It is not only the lifter(s), it is also poorly ground cams.

The MAIN PROBLEM is quality manufacturing has dropped production due to loss of demand (even GM is having huge problems) and CHI-COM sloppy-copies is all that is readily available.

BEWARE OF THE PLAIN WHITE BOX!

[5851a]

https://www.oregoncamshaft.com/regrinding.html you might give this place a call.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BW

Use a good break in oil, it should have ZDDP in it. Break the cam in first. On my 289 I ran the engine for 15 minutes at 2000 RPM's. When you change the oil use only a good gasoline motor oil with ZDDP in it. Like Lucas Hot Rod & Classic or Valvoline VR-1. I use 10w-30. Do not use a ZDDP Additive or Diesel oil. Non ZDDP Motor oil and Diesel oil have detergents that will remove the ZDDP. If you want more information on this topic, check out Lake Speed Jr. on U Tube. He works for Seal Power and he's pretty much the go to guy on ZDDP and oil and the proper way to break in a engine.

I have a Model-A. The guys in the Model-A world mostly seem to think that Shell Rotella-T 30W is the way to go. I have tried to tell them that the Rotella-T is not the same as it once was. They reformulated that oil too, via a request of the federal govt back about 10 or more years ago. Like talking to a brick wall!

I am a big Lucas Hot Rod Oil user. Another thing, all oil filters are not created equal. I did not know this until I was referred to a youtube video some years back. I used Fram filters for a long time - no more. Been buying NAPA Gold, and Wix Racing Filters the last couple years. Some times on my Y-block I will use a Motorcraft FL-1A.

[Gene F]

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From what I hear "Crane cams (the kits with springs and lifters) are worth the money". However, I hear that S&S Cycle bought them. I hear if you order a Crane cam now it actually comes as a Comp Cams.

[5851a]

Kind of a quandary anymore, if the old one was working ok I would be tempted to re use. Australian sites may hold the answer, they ran the 6 for a long time. Agree with Gene all normal oils cut back after catalytic convertors. Diesel oils and race oils are not meant for gasoline or long term use. Spend a day watching Bob's the oil guy or filter guy. Interesting info. Not a fan of fram myself.

[KULTULZ]

The guys in the Model-A world mostly seem to think that Shell Rotella-T 30W is the way to go. I have tried to tell them that the Rotella-T is not the same as it once was. They reformulated that oil too, via a request of the federal govt back about 10 or more years ago. Like talking to a brick wall!

You're wasting your time trying to educate.

ROTELLA was the go to when the FEDS restricted ZDDP due to possible car convertor damage. Then ROTELLA had to change that formula when heavy diesel particulate traps came out. You can still get the same formula but is only sold in five gallon pails for older fleet use.

The FEDS then approved higher level ZDDP in gasoline engines oil if not used in later convertor applications (classification) and these are readily available.

HD DIESEL OIL does not belong in a gasoline engine.

[ms fowler]

Thanks for all the replies----and the links. I WILL look at all of them before I decide.

Also thank you all for graciously tolerating a non V8 question--some forums would be "rude".

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ms fowler

Thanks for all the replies----and the links. I WILL look at all of them before I decide.

Also thank you all for graciously tolerating a non V8 question--some forums would be "rude".

There is no problem as long as it is FORD. No matter.

Why are you replacing the cam/lifters? Worn - out of spec?

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by 5851a

Kind of a quandary anymore, if the old one was working ok I would be tempted to re use. Australian sites may hold the answer, they ran the 6 for a long time. Agree with Gene all normal oils cut back after catalytic convertors. Diesel oils and race oils are not meant for gasoline or long term use. Spend a day watching Bob's the oil guy or filter guy. Interesting info. Not a fan of fram myself.

Some times you cut one apart (new), and there is rust inside of it. Rust...think about that.

[ms fowler]

In the past, replacing cam and lifters was SOP. Now, I am rethinking that. I kept the lifters in order so they could be returned to the same cam lobe.....and then I dropped two and now I don't know.
If I go with remachined lifters as noted above, that won't matter.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ms fowler

In the past, replacing cam and lifters was SOP. Now, I am rethinking that. I kept the lifters in order so they could be returned to the same cam lobe.....and then I dropped two and now I don't know.

If I go with remachined lifters as noted above, that won't matter.

You know what I would do? Now that the lifter order has been disturbed, I would call OREGON CAM and talk with them. They are good and proven.

They can check the cam itself and most likely correct any problem. The tappets also need to be disassembled, cleaned/calibrated and resurfaced.

And don't forget, break-in will be as a new cam/lifters. The tappets have to turn in their bores while breaking in.

[ms fowler]

For anyone contemplating cam and lifters in this day of lesser quality parts.....
I contacted Oregon Cam and they quoted me $90 for the cam regind and $5.50 per lifter to recondition them. They will grind it to be like what is called an RV cam--but could do any profile.
Prices seem more than reasonable to me. I will be shipping the cam in a day or two ( when it warms up enough for me to go to my unheated garage. ( Unheated, bur well insulated yesterday with 20 degree outside, my garage was at a not-quite-comfortable 34 degrees)

[KULTULZ]

Please keep the board posted as to updates and results.

[STEVE O]

Hi Everyone,
As a parts manager for a school system with over 400 units we have used Napa Gold on everything that we could get filters to fit. Very good service and great product support. Mann Hummell (a very old and large German filter company) bought out WIX. Product support has not been like it use to be. Latest news from our NAPA store all Napa gold EAST of the Mississippi is now Baldwin (which is mainly China for the filters we got) and filters for Large truck are Donaldson. Supposedly west of the Mississippi Napa gold will stay the same?? Quality and service as we use to expect is falling by the wayside.
On another note we have used Shell Rotella SH15W40 dino motor oil for over 30 years in everything in the fleet except for units under warranty. Have pretty well come to the conclusion that this is not the best oil for our fleet (diesels with emissions especially). Most all of our buses since 2018 are Cummins diesels. The Cummins rep was by our shop and spoke to our shop manager and techs and looked at the specs of our oil and said it meets Cummins specs? I have not researched what our bulk Rotella may or maynot have in it now but was very surprised at what he said.
Hard for me to believe or accept how things have changed and may never be the same.
Steve

[KULTULZ]

Mann Hummell (a very old and large German filter company) bought out WIX. Product support has not been like it use to be.

That explains why I have seen some WIX PRODUCT MADE IN CHINA.

THANX!

[dmsfrr]

Guess I should stock up on a supply of non-chinesium Wix filters.

[STEVE O]

Hi KULTULZ,
Your welcome. Yes I started seeing some WIX/NAPA GOLD with the MANN/HUMMEL filters coming thru with the made in China. Then I saw NAPA sort of removed the MANN/HUMMEL on the box and all of the smaller filters are made in China.
dmsfrr I agree, hopefully you being west of the Mississippi you will still get the MANN/HUMMEL but I know they have already started some made in China also.
Sorry to hijack this thread but this stuff is really alarming to me.
Steve

[ms fowler]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Please keep the board posted as to updates and results.

Yes, of course.
That is one of my constant pleas---lets close the loop so others can learn from the experience.

[dmsfrr]

Found these today at a local NAPA store, west of the Mississippi.
The black NAPA Gold filter, by Mann/Hummel, has Made in the USA on it. So far.

The white NAPA ProSelect brand has mostly the same markings, at approx half the price.
Not sure how they compare to each other technically.

The fellow behind the counter had heard the same story about a change of ownership, and more oil filters from china, less of them from better places.
.

[KULTULZ]

The world is going to hell in a hand-basket.

WIX offered a non-cellulose filter media to use with GTDI applications with SP oils.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by STEVE O

Hi KULTULZ,

Your welcome. Yes I started seeing some WIX/NAPA GOLD with the MANN/HUMMEL filters coming thru with the made in China. Then I saw NAPA sort of removed the MANN/HUMMEL on the box and all of the smaller filters are made in China.

Sorry to hijack this thread but this stuff is really alarming to me.
Steve

THANK YOU! for bringing this up. I have read a few similar discussions and now I know for certain.

Wondering, has your DEPT talked with a MOTORCRAFT REPRESENTATIVE about fleet supplies?

[Gene F]

Hmmm. Now I wonder what to use.

There is a reason why those elcheapo filters are so cheap...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Hmmm. Now I wonder what to use.

There is a reason why those elcheapo filters are so cheap...

I only use MOTORCRAFT even on current tech. I know what it is and where it comes from (PUROLATOR made to FORD SPECS). I worry much more about quality over price.

Now the problem will be not being sold counterfeit parts (EvilBay and AMAZON 3rd party sellers).

[Pete]

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You will never have a cam like the good old days as long as all of the new manufactured cores are made in chinkland.

I have been in the cam business since 1952 and now days I tell my customers I will only regrind their cam if it is an original OEM core with original numbers.

The heat treat in modern manufactured cast iron cores is so poor it is a wonder they last out the door. There are areas that are almost as hard as a diamond and right next to that will be dead soft.
No wonder they went to rollers. (and even those fail)

Re-faced lifters can go in any hole. They should have .0002 taper on the face. Check by putting 2 lifters face to face and see if you can see light along the edge.
The finish on the face should be at least 10 microinch.

[ms fowler]

Boxed up and shipped.
Surprised at the cost of US ground parcel post. $60 including $500 insurance which I hope I do not need.
Cam and lifters should be at Oregon Cam on Saturday.

[STEVE O]

Hi KULTULZ,
I agree 100% on trying to get the quality. I have not researched the Motorcraft side yet but as you stated is made by Purolator a division of MANN/HUMMELL and is a viable resource. I'm like you our assurance is in being made to Ford specs. Our later buses are running Cummins in which we have been using Fleetguard. Since the NAPA GOLD switch in our area we have filled other spots with Fleetguard which is a Cummins owned filter company with the assurance of the Fleetgaurd being held to quality. I agree things are going sour on everything.
ms fowler sure glad your able to get the MANN/HUMMEL in your area , in hopefully most part numbers will be made in the USA. Hope things go well with your cam and lifters.
Steve

[KULTULZ]

Fleetguard which is a Cummins owned filter company with the assurance of the Fleetgaurd being held to quality.

FLEETGUARD is (was) good stuff when I ran road tractors (70's - eighties), that and DONALDSON.

MOTORCRAFT has it's own customer service and will have it's own dealer network that can help with fleets. They are a part of FORD, but much easier to work with.

[KULTULZ]

This Is GOSPEL People -

Originally Posted by Pete

You will never have a cam like the good old days as long as all of the new manufactured cores are made in chinkland.

I have been in the cam business since 1952 and now days I tell my customers I will only regrind their cam if it is an original OEM core with original numbers.

The heat treat in modern manufactured cast iron cores is so poor it is a wonder they last out the door. There are areas that are almost as hard as a diamond and right next to that will be dead soft.
No wonder they went to rollers. (and even those fail)

Re-faced lifters can go in any hole. They should have .0002 taper on the face. Check by putting 2 lifters face to face and see if you can see light along the edge.The finish on the face should be at least 10 microinch.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by STEVE O

I agree 100% on trying to get the quality. I have not researched the Motorcraft side yet but as you stated is made by Purolator a division of MANN/HUMMELL

... do what ... ???

[STEVE O]

Thanks KULTULZ for the info. I will do some research as to availability in our area. We will have to keep up the good fight for quality as long as we can!

[5851a]

DONALDSON closed it plant here and sent it to Mexico 20 years ago. Maybe different filter plants for other needs.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by 5851a

DONALDSON closed it plant here and sent it to Mexico 20 years ago.

... damn ...

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by Pete

You will never have a cam like the good old days as long as all of the new manufactured cores are made in chinkland.

I have been in the cam business since 1952 and now days I tell my customers I will only regrind their cam if it is an original OEM core with original numbers.

The heat treat in modern manufactured cast iron cores is so poor it is a wonder they last out the door. There are areas that are almost as hard as a diamond and right next to that will be dead soft.
No wonder they went to rollers. (and even those fail)

Re-faced lifters can go in any hole. They should have .0002 taper on the face. Check by putting 2 lifters face to face and see if you can see light along the edge.
The finish on the face should be at least 10 microinch.

Pete, is that correct? Two tenths isn't much taper, and is pretty darn near flat. I'm used to seeing and grinding .001-.0015 on more modern flat tappets. I use a Sunnen tappet grinder.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Pete, is that correct? Two tenths isn't much taper, and is pretty darn near flat. I'm used to seeing and grinding .001-.0015 on more modern flat tappets. I use a Sunnen tappet grinder.

Back in the dim past when there were new lifters available from Ford and we decided to get in the lifter reconditioning business, we measured more lifters than I care to remember and the taper was .0002.

I don't think the way you are doing them will hurt anything. The taper on cam lobes varies all over the map these days depending on who did it.
The offset of the lifter from lobe centerline is the main thing that rotates the lifter.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

That explains why I have seen some WIX PRODUCT MADE IN CHINA.

THANX!

Seems to be a little more severe than I realized -

https://autocareaids.com/who-makes-wix-oil-filters/

https://autocareaids.com/who-makes-m...t-oil-filters/

https://www.ford-trucks.com/articles...helpful-guide/

[miker98038]

The offshore manufacturing is is mixed bag for me. Many of those companies/countries have proven they can make fine products, right along side the junk. To me, it’s a matter of quality control by the company ordering, and allowing the engineers to overrule the accountants. Then putting trusted personnel in charge of the quality control inspections.

Based on their background, an old line German firm gives me a better feeling.

(I’m ignoring the current mess a certain aircraft manufacturer is in, in my backyard, in the town I was born in.)

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by miker98038

The offshore manufacturing is is mixed bag for me. Many of those companies/countries have proven they can make fine products, right along side the junk. To me, it’s a matter of quality control by the company ordering, and allowing the engineers to overrule the accountants. Then putting trusted personnel in charge of the quality control inspections.

Based on their background, an old line German firm gives me a better feeling.

Simply put, manufacturing is world-wide now as America has lost it's way. You cannot manufacture in America, nor is there a desire.

There is quality product, there is cheap product. It matters more on concern for corporate profit rather than the consumer. Most are now monopolies. You just buy the same product but with a different label

As for Germany, they were finally beaten by the cheap to build and operate T-34.

[STEVE O]

WOW thanks KULTULZ,
This is getting terrible. Seems the few of us that does their best to use the best quality products is coming is within itself a nightmare! We have to be a detective to even come close to purchasing what we think. The motorcraft copy cats are the most concerning to me as a saleman told me some 12 years ago that the Motorcraft filters being sold at Walmart were counterfeit and to be sure there is a certain number on them to be sure they are true Motorcraft (I can't remember what number) but it was on the filters at Walmart so assumed he was wrong and forgot about it. WOW now after watching that video he may have been right. Very Very SAD!
Steve

[paul2748]

Totally agree

Originally Posted by miker98038

The offshore manufacturing is is mixed bag for me. Many of those companies/countries have proven they can make fine products, right along side the junk. To me, it’s a matter of quality control by the company ordering, and allowing the engineers to overrule the accountants. Then putting trusted personnel in charge of the quality control inspections.

Based on their background, an old line German firm gives me a better feeling.

(I’m ignoring the current mess a certain aircraft manufacturer is in, in my backyard, in the town I was born in.)