French Ford Model A Town Sedan

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Dear Model A enthusiasts,

since 2007 I follow your page and discussions and i took very many good hints and advise from this forum.
I am located in southern Germany (and I am German) and I am restoring a true barn find of a French 1930 Briggs Town Sedan. We startet in 2006 an try to finish in 2015.
The car was assembled around April 1930 in Asniere, near Paris in France and went through a rough history until ist was finally parked around 1961. In the meanwhile it detiorated into a remarkable wreck.
Please have a look on my restoration projekt at www.fordmodela.com.
I am very thankful that you made through your diskussions this projekt possible in detail, and want to give back a little to others. And of course get some acknowledgement from the experts!
Looking forward to hearing from you,

Michael

[Reds34]

Looks like a good project. A lot of work ahead of you for sure. Good Luck.

Red

[Pilotdave]

Welcome aboard! You have quite a project ahead of you - thanks for posting pictures. Looking forward to more. Good luck.

[Steve Plucker]

Michael,

Where at in Germany are you?

I am very, very impressed with your website and craftmanship. Well done.

I will say this however...you just might want to reconsider your restorations of the Right and Left Spindle Arms and the Steering Gear Arm...I say this because I at one time purchased those three from someone who did just what you are doing.

As I was heading North and just as I got into Bend, Oregon, I will never forget the feeling when all of a sudden I had no steering!...The "welded" and or pressed-in ball came off the Steering Gear Arm...needless to say, I about soiled my britches!

If you can, find some good originals where the balls are good. I know this is a chore but I will tell you, you will feel a lot safer by doing it this way.

HOWEVER...if you feel confident in your work...then go for it...just my opinion on those three items!

Pluck

[Terry, NJ]

Michael. I don't know what french Town Sedans were like, but in the US, it would not be a Town Sedan. First, no cowl lights. TSes, (Town Sedans) all have Cowl lights. Second, The dash Rail is painted. not wood grained. Third, No fold down arm rest in the center of the rear seat. Fourth, no light (maybe) by the top of the rear window. It is a oval lens with a oval Bezel, not round. I may be wrong about this, due to the difference between french models and US models. The Upholstery looks like green Mohair, a standard for Town Sedans. It's nice example for restoration. Macht Spass!
Terry

[MichaelSchwarzer]

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Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer

Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael

Yes there is...It is contained on FORD's Assembly Record Types. France (Asnieres) alone built 347 Town Sedans in 1930 and a total of all units for Asnieres was 12065.

Hmmmmm...It must be 7:40 AM there?

Pluck

[Tudortomnz]

Hi Michael
I like your Model A.. It is a Town Sedan as you said as the cowl lamp holes are there, wood roof framing for rear interior lamp & also the deluxe garnish mouldings under the window frames.
I believe these 1930 Briggs sedans originate at the British Manchester Plant & were made LHD & assembled near Paris at Asnieres. Also you are right about French made parts on it as this was required all over Europe. Typically, French lamps, wiring, interiors etc were used [ probably also tires, glass etc.] but I am no expert on all of this. It appears to have been fitted with the large bore engine as the data plate states A; usually if it was a small bore, it would be stamped AF. It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.

[ctlikon0712]

It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.

Really? A sun roof for sunny old England !

[roccaas]

I read somewhere that headlamps on French cars, at some time past, were required to not have light projected through the front of the headlamp, but only through reflection off of a surface. I believe I've seen some Marchal lamps like this. Truth, or a only a bad recollection??

[davehc]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Michael. I don't know what french Town Sedans were like, but in the US, it would not be a Town Sedan. First, no cowl lights. TSes, (Town Sedans) all have Cowl lights. Second, The dash Rail is painted. not wood grained. Third, No fold down arm rest in the center of the rear seat. Fourth, no light (maybe) by the top of the rear window. It is a oval lens with a oval Bezel, not round. I may be wrong about this, due to the difference between french models and US models. The Upholstery looks like green Mohair, a standard for Town Sedans. It's nice example for restoration. Macht Spass!
Terry

I have a 30 Town Sedan with center arm rest , and thought all Town Sedans had the arm rest in the rear . DeAngelis book , "The Ford Model A" also shows it . Just courious .
Dave

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by davehc

I have a 30 Town Sedan with center arm rest , and thought all Town Sedans had the arm rest in the rear . DeAngelis book , "The Ford Model A" also shows it . Just courious .
Dave

David,

You are correct...According to the FORD Body Parts List for August 15, 1930, page 37: the 155-C (Murray) and the 155-D (Briggs) both came with a (Rear Seat Center Arm) Rest Assembly.

The 170-B (Standard and De Luxe Fordor 2-window) also came with the Center Arm Rest.

Pluck

[eagle]

Its amazing to see the birdcage body wood. It makes me shudder to think I bought my Briggs Fordor without even looking at the wood. I didn't realize they were wood framed. I got lucky, the wood is all original and like new but I would not be up to the project you are doing. You will have a beautiful car when done. The Fordors drive differently than other A's because of the weight/balance of the body on the frame. We love ours. Look forward to watching the progress.

[Terry, NJ]

Off Topic, But do you know of a town named "Breitenbach" in Bavaria? One of my Great (?) grandfathers came from there.

Back On topic, From what you are saying, it's looking more and more like a Briggs Town sedan that someone "Customised" . Take a few more pictures of The windows. The area directly over the rear windows, and the wiring in the rear, and the rear interior. The Green mohair panels is a stock item for TSes, so that is another point towards it being a TS. I saw the holes in the cowl and wasn't sure if they were factory or not, especially with that weird mounting bracket (spare tire) sticking out of it. If it's not a TS, I would say it's a 4 dr deluxe.
Terry

Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer

Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael

[Christoph]

Hi Michael
Welcome to the Barn ...
and long distance greetings from Frankfurt
Christoph

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Bonjour, Gutentag,
Do you have to speak French when you are driving a French Model A????LOL
Welcome and if we can be of some help please let us know,
Ken

[30Ford]

I'am heading to Germany in 23 days ...it would be great to see a A

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

Hi Michael
I like your Model A.. It is a Town Sedan as you said as the cowl lamp holes are there, wood roof framing for rear interior lamp & also the deluxe garnish mouldings under the window frames.
I believe these 1930 Briggs sedans originate at the British Manchester Plant & were made LHD & assembled near Paris at Asnieres. Also you are right about French made parts on it as this was required all over Europe. Typically, French lamps, wiring, interiors etc were used [ probably also tires, glass etc.] but I am no expert on all of this. It appears to have been fitted with the large bore engine as the data plate states A; usually if it was a small bore, it would be stamped AF. It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.

Tom,

It is the large bore engine, number 278 671. The original roof had been replaced by some sheet metal, so I do not know about a sun roof.I can hardly blieve that for the UK. Thanks, Michael

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by roccaas

I read somewhere that headlamps on French cars, at some time past, were required to not have light projected through the front of the headlamp, but only through reflection off of a surface. I believe I've seen some Marchal lamps like this. Truth, or a only a bad recollection??

Sorry, I have never heard about that!

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by eagle

Its amazing to see the birdcage body wood. It makes me shudder to think I bought my Briggs Fordor without even looking at the wood. I didn't realize they were wood framed. I got lucky, the wood is all original and like new but I would not be up to the project you are doing. You will have a beautiful car when done. The Fordors drive differently than other A's because of the weight/balance of the body on the frame. We love ours. Look forward to watching the progress.

You are right. As I bought the car I had not a glue that there is a wooden frame. To be honest, I read a lot about Model As only after I bought one. The wood was very bad, as you can see. My brother is a carpenter, and so the project developed into a family project! We have some fun like archeologist must have in determing how the wood could have been shaped originally.

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Terry,

there seems to be a Breitenbach in Hessen, near Fulda. Is that what you mean?
Unfortunately I cannot take more pictures of original condition, as everything has alrady been taken apart. I think the car had been brought back to working condition in rough farm restoration respective quick fixes!

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Ehrenhofer

Bonjour, Gutentag,
Do you have to speak French when you are driving a French Model A????LOL
Welcome and if we can be of some help please let us know,
Ken

I do not speak a word of French. I tried to get in contact with French A people, but is is not easy as I have to find somebody for the translation of each email!

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by 30Ford

I'am heading to Germany in 23 days ...it would be great to see a A

Whre do you go to in Germany?

[Bob C]

Just go to Google Translate cut and paste you email and it will translate it for you.
Nur um Google gehen Übersetzen Ausschneiden und Einfügen Ihre E-Mail und es wird es für Sie übersetzen.

http://translate.google.com/#auto/de/

Bob

[Brad in Germany]

Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer

Sorry, I have never heard about that!

Yes, this is true according to the era "Revue Ford" and "Le Fordiste". This vehicle code was effective May 1930 and that is when the French built Model A's started being delivered with Marschal headlights. The light buckets are similar to the US type headlights, but the lens is completely clear with no fluting (only a small Ford script etched on the bottom of the lense.)

Have you tried the COFF (Club Obsolete Ford France) for any assistance:
http://www.club-obsolete-ford-france.com/

Depanauto in France used to have some stock of original (used) parts for French Model A's. At one point they even reproduced the unique French Model A radiator badge: http://www.depanoto.fr/ They have moved since I last visited them and narrowed their focused to French cars, so I'm not sure what they have left, but it would be worth a call or email.

Fordially,
Brad in Maryland (I used to live in Germany)

[Brad in Germany]

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Hallo Michael,

Can you tell me does your ammeter say "DISCHARGE" (English) or "DECHARGE" (French) (or maybe "Décharge")?

The drawing of the ammeter in the French owners manual show the writing on the face plate spelled in French however I have yet to see one with the French spelled "Decharge".

Danke,
Brad in Maryland

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Brad,

sorry, but almost evreything which could be removed easily was missing, including the instrument panel and all instruments. So I cannot answer your question.

Michael

[Terry, NJ]

Michael, As an owner of a 1930 Town Sedan that needed almost all the wood replaced, I can give you some help on it. First, Most of the wood is Ash. Some is Walnut and Maple. I would not use Oak for reasons of acidity. Ash seems to be the best, if you can get it. I took an Ash tree down on my property and I have plenty.

Next, Henry Ford had been a Toolmaker and he appreciated precise measurements. In checking (With a vernier caliper) sizes of the old wood, I found it to be within .005 of nominal English sizes in inches. I found it to be astounding that wood would be this precise, especially after 83 years.

Although, I was a toolmaker, I have many wood working tools and equipment. But I found a "Bridgeport" milling machine, Or a similar machine (Lagun, Beaver etc) to be necessary for cutting some surfaces. This is especially true of some of the body wood. I could not have made the center posts with out one. Final finsh on the wood is not too important, but sizes are.

You will find that there are not many "Square" angles on the pieces. I bought a used planer to create many shapes and sizes. Also you will need a hand sander (Electrical)
to create some shapes. Watch the run of the grain on corner pieces. I used wood from where there was a branch coming off the trunk and the grain was already "going around a corner".
That should get you started.
Terry

[Brad in Germany]

Michael,

I think I have an era photo of your car :



This was taken somewhere in France after WWII.

Fordially,
Brad in Maryland

PS: Maybe not. This is probably a commercial vehicle judging by the rusty radiator shell and the apparent lack of any back window remnants. Can anyone help out identifying the body style?

[Brad in Germany]

Ford radiator badges for French Model A's. The top one is a repro (made in China) and the bottom one is an original (made in France).



The fine print translates to: "Imported from the United States of America."

Fordially,
Brad in Maryland

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Hi Brad,

have a look on that webpage: http://fordaf1930.free.fr/images/compteur_1.JPg, the ammeter of the french Ford AF says discharge.

Thanks for the photo of my car in its natural environment

Michael

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Thank Terry, we use ash for all parts. My brother is a cabinet maker, he is a hell of a help for that project.
The wooden header was completely gone, so we have no pattern for this one. Bought a reproduction part at Macs, but not sure whether the connection to the side rail is correct. Do you have a picture of that connection?

Michael

[plind]

Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer

Hi Brad,

have a look on that webpage: http://fordaf1930.free.fr/images/compteur_1.JPg, the ammeter of the french Ford AF says discharge.

Thanks for the photo of my car in its natural environment

Michael

Hi.
This link do not Work on my PC...!!

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Strange, the link does not work indeed. Try http://fordaf1930.free.fr/interieur.php and scroll down until the close-up picture of the instrument panel.

[youngs1]

Michael, It is a pleasure to finally find another French Model A owner. I have a 1929 Tudor built in the same plant as yours. There are several links I can share and a fair amount of information I have gleaned from the internet and the Obsolete Ford Club of France. The Marchal headlights are present on my Tudor as well as a number of Ducellier electrical parts such as the wiper motor, a distributor body (not currently installed but came with the car), a Ducel coil still in operation and a WWII era taillight of undetermined manufacture. It has the specific yellow tag light lens, however, required by French law from 1936-1993. My car was brought over from France by a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force in the late 1960's. The car even spent some time at Remstadt AFB! I have spoken with the Lt. Colonel as well as the two intervening owners before I purchased it in 2007. There are two missing French parts still with a previous owner, the French horn that mounts to the firewall that I think is a Bosch unit and that Special French radiator emblem.

If I may be of assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. I have not found any other USA owners of a French Model A to date.

Links: A French Model A: http://fordaf1930.free.fr/restauration.php
Translation site I use that can translate an entire web page and can handle French to German: http://www.free-translator.com/

Xavier in the French Ford Club was helpful. He told me many Model A's were scrapped after WWII for reasons seen in the photo posted before as well as just being old and scrap metal being of high value. Not many Model A's survived so we own a couple rather rare pieces of Ford history. I have not found a body type breakdown for 1929 but would be interested to find one. Less than 6,000 total were assembled in the Asnieres plant in 1929. I also have the 40hp version. I still have a Swiss Firestone spare tire and a Michelin tire valve cap. The original French tags came with my car as well as the USA tags used overseas when the car was driven by the Lt. Colonel. I just found two French 10 cent pieces (minted with hole in the middle) dated 1936 (copper/nickel) and 1941 (zinc) being used as washers in the interior. I am still working through some steering issues but the car appears to have 30,000 original miles (50,000 km by the European speedometer) and has been stored well. Only two spots of rust in the lower cowl on each side. Please let me know if I may be of additional help. I hope to find one of the original radiator emblems to complete my car's French specific items. It also had a French reflector on the passenger rear fender that needs repair to put it back on. Please let me know if I can help in any way.

[DougVieyra]

There was a 4 or 5 page article about European-built Ford Model A's in the MAFCA "Restorer" magazine - text and photos. This was about 30 years ago. You might want to check the RESTORER index to locate the article. It has been awhile (a third of a century) since I wrote the article. If you have an interest, I will try and dig down a bit and retrieve some of my original source material.

Also - the Ancient Ford Club of Belgium may be of some help in your restoration. There was a Paul Verstappen who was involved and introduced me to several Model A owners who had mostly French-built cars. - Doug Vieyra

[juke joint johnny]

Brad
I have seen that car It is in Oradour sur Glene near Limoge That town was burnt to the ground during the War and has been preserved as a museum and tribute to the people who lost their lives . The car is a 28-29 Tudor sedan which I believe was being used as a Taxi due to the roofrack fitted to it. I took some photos I will try to dig them out, It looks much worse now after 60 plus years outside with no paint.

John Cochran

Originally Posted by Brad in Germany

Michael,

I think I have an era photo of your car :



This was taken somewhere in France after WWII.

Fordially,
Brad in Maryland

PS: Maybe not. This is probably a commercial vehicle judging by the rusty radiator shell and the apparent lack of any back window remnants. Can anyone help out identifying the body style?

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by youngs1

Michael, It is a pleasure to finally find another French Model A owner. I have a 1929 Tudor built in the same plant as yours. There are several links I can share and a fair amount of information I have gleaned from the internet and the Obsolete Ford Club of France. The Marchal headlights are present on my Tudor as well as a number of Ducellier electrical parts such as the wiper motor, a distributor body (not currently installed but came with the car), a Ducel coil still in operation and a WWII era taillight of undetermined manufacture. It has the specific yellow tag light lens, however, required by French law from 1936-1993. My car was brought over from France by a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force in the late 1960's. The car even spent some time at Remstadt AFB! I have spoken with the Lt. Colonel as well as the two intervening owners before I purchased it in 2007. There are two missing French parts still with a previous owner, the French horn that mounts to the firewall that I think is a Bosch unit and that Special French radiator emblem.

If I may be of assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. I have not found any other USA owners of a French Model A to date.

Links: A French Model A: http://fordaf1930.free.fr/restauration.php
Translation site I use that can translate an entire web page and can handle French to German: http://www.free-translator.com/

Xavier in the French Ford Club was helpful. He told me many Model A's were scrapped after WWII for reasons seen in the photo posted before as well as just being old and scrap metal being of high value. Not many Model A's survived so we own a couple rather rare pieces of Ford history. I have not found a body type breakdown for 1929 but would be interested to find one. Less than 6,000 total were assembled in the Asnieres plant in 1929. I also have the 40hp version. I still have a Swiss Firestone spare tire and a Michelin tire valve cap. The original French tags came with my car as well as the USA tags used overseas when the car was driven by the Lt. Colonel. I just found two French 10 cent pieces (minted with hole in the middle) dated 1936 (copper/nickel) and 1941 (zinc) being used as washers in the interior. I am still working through some steering issues but the car appears to have 30,000 original miles (50,000 km by the European speedometer) and has been stored well. Only two spots of rust in the lower cowl on each side. Please let me know if I may be of additional help. I hope to find one of the original radiator emblems to complete my car's French specific items. It also had a French reflector on the passenger rear fender that needs repair to put it back on. Please let me know if I can help in any way.

Steve,

Thanks for that information and please apologize my late answer. We have been on holiday until just now.
Please give me some time to answer you mail.
May be you could have a look into http://www.ebay.de/itm/161017358019?...84.m1423.l2649
Are these the correct headlamps? May be you could post some photos of your headlamps?
Intersting story about the horn. What does it look like? Is the inside wiper motor original or is it a later replacemnent?
Looking forward to communicate with you!

Best regards,

Michael

[MichaelSchwarzer]

Originally Posted by DougVieyra

There was a 4 or 5 page article about European-built Ford Model A's in the MAFCA "Restorer" magazine - text and photos. This was about 30 years ago. You might want to check the RESTORER index to locate the article. It has been awhile (a third of a century) since I wrote the article. If you have an interest, I will try and dig down a bit and retrieve some of my original source material.

Also - the Ancient Ford Club of Belgium may be of some help in your restoration. There was a Paul Verstappen who was involved and introduced me to several Model A owners who had mostly French-built cars. - Doug Vieyra

Doug,

that sounds very intersting. I would be very happy about more information!

best Regards

michael