gypsycandle: update to the timing way off

[gypsycandle]

Hi guys, well pictures added to what I found when i got the front cover off.
I'm still puzzled, looks like to me (from what I have learned here) the the crank gear is about five cogs? off from where it 's supposed to be on the fiber gear. I hope you can see it on the pic.
I took one of the #1 piston at TDc and you can see the timing dimple is no wheres near the pin area.
Question: when the cam gear is installed, i know there is only one way it goes on but is there any way that it can be misaligned with the crank gear? and is there a way to fix that? Mine seems to be about 4 or 5 gear teeth off when the cam gear dimple comes around and should be lining up with the crank gear.
I hope the pics will bear that out.
Meanwhile I took a cam gear off an old block i have, it looks brand new. have a pic of that too. It says Westinghouse and Ford on it.mygearway off.jpg

gearfrom old block.jpg
Well this is certainly a big learning experience for me and fun too, my wife just looks at it and shakes her head...I don't want to know what she's thinking...lmao

[Bob C]

If you look at the picture Tom posted in post #26 your other thread you
can see like you say, 4-5 teeth off. Pull the cam gear off and line up the marks.

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here's the picture again, so we don't have to search for another thread.

[tbirdtbird]

Tom, don't lose that pic!!!

[H. L. Chauvin]

This gear tooth misalignment not only affects your electrical ignition timing on piston TDC up & down movement, but also affects your valve opening and closing fuel entry timing.

Your new Model A mechanical discovery is at least as mechanically beneficial as hitting the Jackpot on a Slot Machine with your very last silver dollar prior to giving up.

Just take your time to rotate the cam and/or crankshaft, to attain the marks indicated in Mr. Tom's #3 Reply Thumbnail.

And, please don't forget to show your wife your new Model A gear tooth scientific discovery ..... in my opinion, nodding her head only means she still admires your youthful side of "never growing up" ..... more than you can ever imagine.

None of the helpful people on this Forum are overly pragmatic anyway. LOL

[gypsycandle]

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haha Thanks H.L....she agrees with ya... I will attack it tomorrow with renewed enthusiam!

I am worried a bit about that key in the crank, it looks half sheared? I have one in the old block maybe i can use if i can figure how to get it out. Oh by the way do you guys think it's ok to use the gear i pulled of the old block? It looks like it's in awesome shape.

and yes i have that pic saved already it won't get lost...
Michael...

[Tom Wesenberg]

Check your key again. I've never seen the crank gear key sheared, not to say it can't happen.

[Dollar Bill]

I am worried a bit about that key in the crank, it looks half sheared?

As Tom indicated, there isn't a lot of torque needed to turn the camshaft - They run for years on resin impregnated fiber gears.

What you may find is the crankshaft pulley slot has worn from being ran loose. Just make sure the ratchet nut isn't bottoming out on the end of the crankshaft when you get to the reassembly.

[Patrick L.]

Yep, it is off 5 teeth. But, I don't like the look of the crank gear key. It looks as though the slinger has to come off to see if anything has happened that shouldn't have happened. I've not seen a key ever shear, that gear is on pretty tight, but, strange things can happen.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree that the slinger should be replaced. Remove it and have a better look at the key and crank gear. That pulley doesn't look good where the rope seal rides either.

[100IH]

Removing the slinger requires removing the pulley. Sometimes the pulley is difficult to remove without breaking it But, the wear surface on the pulley snout looks very worn where the rope seal rides. I suggest using the crank gear unless you see cause and replace the cam gear when correcting timing. The crank gear can be even more difficult to remove in the chassis. Plan on getting a new pulley, then you'll see that the key is not sheared and the new seal will not leak.

[katy]

FWIW, here's a pic of a Nissan V-6 that sheared off the crank gear pin, I suspect that the gear retaining bolt was loose for a long time. The gear was good. Washed it off, put in a new key, filled the void w/JB weld, buttoned it up and never looked back.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Crankshaft Key:

Many are "never" amazed as to what mechanical items one finds after Model A people worked on Model A's.

Typical saying: "Good enough for a Model A."

Maybe not the case, but that crankshaft key could have initially been the wrong size, and/or ........... it could have been hand made with a piece of soft, scrap steel and/or ...... what ever else one may imagine.

No doubt advice above is correct, i.e., best to evaluate at this time and not later.

[gypsycandle]

Hi everyone.. A special thanks to all who gave advice and instruction, it has all come to a good end!!
I took the cam gear off today and marked the crank gear, reinstalled the cam gear with the marks aligned and the timing is dead on!! yeaaa Thanks.
51116Perfect Timing.jpg
Now before i put it back together should I lap all the valves, remember it has sat for 50 years or reassemble it and see if it runs first?
Someone said it wasn't necessary to do the valves yet but there is still that question of not much compression.
Thanks again to all.. H.L I'm waiting to hear how they did it with out electricity and power tools..lol
Michael...

[Patrick L.]

I don't think I'd worry about lapping valves. I'd recommend turning the engine and make sure all valves are free and check the lash. If everything is working as it should and with some oil added to the cylinders I think the compression should be more what it should be. Don't worry if you think its low as long as all are somewhat the same.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Don't forget the cam nut. LOL

Be sure to put grease on the camshaft where the plunger pushes on it.

[gypsycandle]

Thanks Tom..I didn't forget the cam nut, as a matter of fact i had to reuse the old one..the one from the other block wouldn't thread on more than two turns...i din't want to force it, so I cleaned up the old one on a grinder, it spun right on. White Lithum grease ok on the plunger surface? I cleaned the spring, plunger and hole out.
I don't know if it makes a diff but the crank pulley can be moved a bit back and forth against the key? not front to back.

I'm finding out that "I don't know what I don't know" with this engine. lol

It's nice to see the timing pin fall in at TDC on #1...oh man what a rellief. The valves look like they are all closing pretty tight against the seats but at this point what's taking the head off one more time...lmao It's an every week occurance lately.
Tomorrow i'll address the front yoke springs, geesh it's like some one put this together blindfolded...no wonder it dosen't run.
Later guys...i'm sure i will have more questions soon...thanks again.
Michael...

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

Hi everyone.. A special thanks to all who gave advice and instruction, it has all come to a good end!!
I took the cam gear off today and marked the crank gear, reinstalled the cam gear with the marks aligned and the timing is dead on!! yeaaa Thanks.
Attachment 269948
Now before i put it back together should I lap all the valves, remember it has sat for 50 years or reassemble it and see if it runs first?
Someone said it wasn't necessary to do the valves yet but there is still that question of not much compression.
Thanks again to all.. H.L I'm waiting to hear how they did it with out electricity and power tools..lol
Michael...

With the valve timing off 5 teeth you would not have much compression.
Should be better now.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by gypsycandle

Thanks Tom..I didn't forget the cam nut, as a matter of fact i had to reuse the old one..the one from the other block wouldn't thread on more than two turns...i din't want to force it, so I cleaned up the old one on a grinder, it spun right on. White Lithum grease ok on the plunger surface? I cleaned the spring, plunger and hole out.
I don't know if it makes a diff but the crank pulley can be moved a bit back and forth against the key? not front to back.

I'm finding out that "I don't know what I don't know" with this engine. lol

It's nice to see the timing pin fall in at TDC on #1...oh man what a rellief. The valves look like they are all closing pretty tight against the seats but at this point what's taking the head off one more time...lmao It's an every week occurance lately.
Tomorrow i'll address the front yoke springs, geesh it's like some one put this together blindfolded...no wonder it dosen't run.
Later guys...i'm sure i will have more questions soon...thanks again.
Michael...

If it does this with the ratchet nut tight then the nut it is bottomed out on the crank snout and you need to correct this.

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

Any grease for the cam plunger will be OK, as it will wash off after the engine run.

As Bob said, Make sure you find out why the pulley isn't dead tight. Maybe it's worn from being run loose, and you might need to replace it. Remember I mentioned about how bad it looks where the rope seal rides. No point in installing an engine that will leak out the front.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Michael,

As requested, Per # 15, just hurriedly posted how to adjust valve stems with non-adjustable tappets.

[Bill Cilker]

I would not recommend using the other cam gear, the 2 piece one. They come apart. I had one that lasted only 4,000 miles. The steel center separates from the outer section.