Paint question

[tirekicker]

In process of preparing a slant window sedan for final painting. Interested In paint codes for chicle and copra drab used in base clear or single stage. Thank you.

[Mike Peters]

Single stage.

chicle drab, Dupont- B8854 PPG, 91
copra drab, Dupont-DS094 PPG- 440

[CWPASADENA]

Single stage looks more like the original lacquer Henry used.

Base/clear is nice but way too shiny and "modern" looking in my opinion.

Chris W.

[duke36]

Just an alert that there have been in the past 2 versions of this color scheme, one with greenish hues and the other with brown/beige overtones. The latter is considered correct per the MAFCA/ MARC standards.

[Mister Moose]

Who's doing the painting? If it's you, 2 stage is way more toxic and requires more gear. The paint is much more expensive. Durability is fantastic.

If you go 2 stage it will show more flaws in the prep than single stage. So either more fastidious work or more dollars if you hire someone for 2 stage. No point in a mirror finish when it accents all the flaws you left in the surface. Done well, it's an amazing paint. It just won't look 30's era whatsoever.

2 stage is a harder paint, meaning tougher to scratch once fully cured. Good on the scratch resistant side. Bad on the repair side. Takes more skill and time to repair 2 stage, and a halo often results in bright sun at the repair spot.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Mister Moose

Who's doing the painting?

If it's you, 2 stage is way more toxic and requires more gear.


The paint is much more expensive. Durability is fantastic.

If you go 2 stage it will show more flaws in the prep than single stage. So either more fastidious work or more dollars if you hire someone for 2 stage. No point in a mirror finish when it accents all the flaws you left in the surface. Done well, it's an amazing paint. It just won't look 30's era whatsoever.

2 stage is a harder paint, meaning tougher to scratch once fully cured. Good on the scratch resistant side. Bad on the repair side. Takes more skill and time to repair 2 stage, and a halo often results in bright sun at the repair spot.

Just curious, where are you getting this information? By chance, are you a certified applicator (painter)??

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Just curious, where are you getting this information? By chance, are you a certified applicator (painter)??

I'm an experienced but not expert non-professional. I've worked with numerous clear finishes, polyurethanes, 2 part linear polyurethanes, and enamels.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

I'm an experienced but not expert non-professional. I've worked with numerous clear finishes, polyurethanes, 2 part linear polyurethanes, and enamels.

Ok. Why I ask is I am a PPG Gold certified shop that also has a certification in the Axalta brand. Unfortunately, my experience with automotive BC/CC and Single-stage paints counters much of what you have stated above in red.

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. In a single-stage paint system, you are using pigment in each of the coats whereas in a BC/CC system, the only toners or pigments that are used is in the base. This is the main reasoning why the automotive industry uses BC/CC paint today.

IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.

The shell of any catalyzed paint is a direct result of the type product used in the catalyzation process. I can make a single-stage paint such as PPG's DCC line (Concept) have a much stronger shell than their typical clear will have in the DBC (Deltron) line simply by using their DFX11 hardener instead of their DCX hardeners. There was a wives tale floating that some painters chose to mix a splash of clear in their final topcoat as a way to increase the durability, however the PPG engineers have disputed that to me multiple times at classes I have attended.

I will also share with you that using any type of clear or finish coat that has an extremely hard shell typically suffers from trapped solvents which come back to haunt the job later. Sure, it colorsands very well and buffs quickly, but I am in it for longevity and not quick production work.

One final point is that BC/CC can be made to look like Nitrocellulose Lacquer by using PPG's SLV4985 to tone it down. Even the blending issues that once plagued the clearcoat paints by creating the 'halo effect' are now almost non-existent due to specifically made solvents. As I tell people, things change month-by-month in the paint refinish industry, -and so what you may have learned about paint products 6+ months ago is often obsolete in today's paint products.

[LeonardS]

Excellent explanation Brent!

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.
This is a nomenclature issue, I referred to single stage meaning traditional enamels, etc. Yes, isocyanates are nothing to be casual about, which is why they are more equipment critical. We're saying the same thing.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. Hasn't been my experience. Any catalyzed paint cost me more, as did any solvent, prep wipe and reducer.


IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.
Higher gloss = more depiction of surface imperfections. Plus, with a separate clear coat you have more chance of dust or hair to be imbedded in the film and since it's clear, you see it.

You're answering from a professionally equipped painter point of view, so some nomenclature varies, and infrastructure varies. Obviously a well designed spray booth will yield better results regardless of the type of paint. The decision not only is rested in what paint, but who and where it will be applied. What paint is good in the booth might not be as good outdoors, or in a garage, even for skilled DIY. Toxicity, rate of drying, lighting, insects, airborne contaminants, and skill all play a role.

We don't know if he's planning on doing any work himself, or is going to have everything professionally done. Lot's of backyard hobbyist painters out there.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

You're answering from a professionally equipped painter point of view, so some nomenclature varies, and infrastructure varies. Obviously a well designed spray booth will yield better results regardless of the type of paint. The decision not only is rested in what paint, but who and where it will be applied. What paint is good in the booth might not be as good outdoors, or in a garage, even for skilled DIY. Toxicity, rate of drying, lighting, insects, airborne contaminants, and skill all play a role.

We don't know if he's planning on doing any work himself, or is going to have everything professionally done. Lot's of backyard hobbyist painters out there.

WOW!! Actually, if we go back and re-read his question, he only asked for the paint code for Copra Drab and Chicle Drab in either single-stage or in BC/CC.

Pretty sure he did not ask for opinions about whether he should go with BC/CC or Single-stage. With all due respect towards you, it would appear you are the one that assumed he was not an experienced painter. Again, if I am correct, all he was asking for was paint codes. Additionally, I understand the refinish industry enough to know that if I have a code for a mix in BC/CC, then I generally can convert that mix to a Single-stage line, -and visa-versa.

The only reason I chose to get involved in this post is I questioned the validity of your statements which I felt some were kinda misleading or non-factual. While your comments may not apply to the original poster, you never know who else might read your comments and assume you were knowledgeable enough in the topic to follow your advice. As you stated, lots of backyard painters out there ...who may not know the facts from fiction, and we would not want to mislead them with misinformation, -would we? My intent is not to belittle you or embarrass you however posting factual information when possible should always be our goal.

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Ok. Why I ask is I am a PPG Gold certified shop that also has a certification in the Axalta brand. Unfortunately, my experience with automotive BC/CC and Single-stage paints counters much of what you have stated above in red.

Any paints that use a catalyst to start the paint's curing process will generally include Isocyanates. From my experiences, the basecoat of the 2-stage paints do not use any hardener however both the clearcoat, -and the single-stage topcoat both contain Isocyanates which will typically affect breathing and the nervous system of anyone exposed to it without proper PPE. Therefore neither type of paint is really less toxic than the other. Both will kill you without using proper PPE.

Generally speaking, it is the BC/CC paint system that is cheaper, -and not the single-stage paint as you indicated. In a single-stage paint system, you are using pigment in each of the coats whereas in a BC/CC system, the only toners or pigments that are used is in the base. This is the main reasoning why the automotive industry uses BC/CC paint today.

IMHO, any flaw will show equally whether using single-stage or BC/CC. Maybe not to an untrained eye, however shrinkage, waviness, dents, orange-peel, etc. will show in either type paint when used.

The shell of any catalyzed paint is a direct result of the type product used in the catalyzation process. I can make a single-stage paint such as PPG's DCC line (Concept) have a much stronger shell than their typical clear will have in the DBC (Deltron) line simply by using their DFX11 hardener instead of their DCX hardeners. There was a wives tale floating that some painters chose to mix a splash of clear in their final topcoat as a way to increase the durability, however the PPG engineers have disputed that to me multiple times at classes I have attended.

I will also share with you that using any type of clear or finish coat that has an extremely hard shell typically suffers from trapped solvents which come back to haunt the job later. Sure, it colorsands very well and buffs quickly, but I am in it for longevity and not quick production work.

One final point is that BC/CC can be made to look like Nitrocellulose Lacquer by using PPG's SLV4985 to tone it down. Even the blending issues that once plagued the clearcoat paints by creating the 'halo effect' are now almost non-existent due to specifically made solvents. As I tell people, things change month-by-month in the paint refinish industry, -and so what you may have learned about paint products 6+ months ago is often obsolete in today's paint products.

Let there be no doubt, the true expert has spoken !

[Conaway2]

Wow - so much has changed since I painted my roadster in my driveway with acrylic lacquer 34 years ago. I’m thinking about repainting in the next year or so, but I suspect so much has changed that I’m not sure I could do it again. Acrylic lacquer prices are crazy; in fact, so are prices on newer paints. Repainting estimates I;ve heard from others are almost $15k.

Is there some simple way a DIYer can still paint his/her own car for a reasonable price ?

Jim

[whirnot]

Jim, I painted my CCPU last winter using single stage Urethane.
It is red ( the most expensive) and total material cost was about $1000

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Conaway2

Wow - so much has changed since I painted my roadster in my driveway with acrylic lacquer 34 years ago. I’m thinking about repainting in the next year or so, but I suspect so much has changed that I’m not sure I could do it again. Acrylic lacquer prices are crazy; in fact, so are prices on newer paints. Repainting estimates I;ve heard from others are almost $15k.

Is there some simple way a DIYer can still paint his/her own car for a reasonable price ?

Let me clear one more thing from above. Single-stage paint is any "traditional paint" (such as Lacquer, Enamel -or whatever) that has a hardener added to the paint to increase shell stability. Unfortunately it really is not a nomenclature difference as suggested. The correct industry nomenclature for those older technology paints are items known by their parent names such as Enamel (alkyd, synthetic, acrylic, etc.) and Lacquer (nitrocellulose, acrylic, etc.). For example, someone might say their car has 30 coats of hand-rubbed lacquer, whereas today someone might just say their vehicle is painted in single-stage. The bottom line is these early paints were non-catalyzed paints, therefore they are not correctly called a 'single-stage' paint.



Jim, you are correct in that much has changed in the last 3 - 4 decades. Duracryl, -which is PPG's acrylic lacquer is still available. According to the PPG reps I have spoken with, the reason for the expense is lack of demand makes limited production run costs higher. Additionally, some of the ingredients in these lacquer paints are heavy metals in which EPA adds usage fees to. While expensive comparatively, it still may be cheaper to use lacquer to respray what you already have instead of stripping what you have. As you probably know, catalyzed paints typically do not bond well to lacquer, so you would not want to use any of these 2k type paints over your existing paint.

There are ways to have a lower cost respray coatings that can be used by the DIYer however most will tell you these do not hold-up well over time. Think of these as cheap "tractor & implement paints". The next is lesser-known brands such as R&M, Valspar, etc. (-that are about one-step above what a MAACO shop will use! ) offer paints that can be used by the DIYer. Then you have Omni and Nason which are cheaper quality line manufactured by PPG and Axalta (-former DuPont) respectively but are typically better quality than the aforementioned paint manufacturers.


As far as painting goes, it is alot like owning a boat. It is all the peripheral items required to complete the job when doing the painting yourself which can drive up the price. Some of these items are; fabricating some type of booth system, purchasing better quality compressed air filtering, purchasing PPE (personal protective equipment), a better quality spray gun to cut-down on paint overspray (-which is basically wasting money spraying money into the air), and like items. So when you add up all the hidden costs, it does make you inquire what define "reasonable".

Below are two good reads IMO. Without looking at your car, my initial instinct is if someone tells you they can strip the lacquer paint from your car, re-bodywork the sheetmetal, and paint it in a good quality urethane paint for $15k, I'd tell you that is a bargain. Have a read to confirm what I am saying;

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/art...inting-costs-2

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/time-is-money

[rotorwrench]

When they started adding hardener to the acrylic enamel, it became an acrylic urethane and that would be single stage.

Modern 2-stage can use all sorts of stuff for the base coat. I've even used the polyester based color coat with a urethane clear coat. A polyurethane base coat with a polyurethane clear coat is a 2-stage that could have been a single stage if the clear wasn't used. It depends on the affect a person wants out of it.

As far as color codes is concerned, it's sort of good luck to get the correct shade now days. Every new product in the automotive paint finish world has a new host of different names & codes for colors. I've heard both good and bad about TCP Global's color matches. I recommend that folks that can't mix their own, find a supply source that can at least match an original color. Coming up with an example of that color for them may be the hard part. They would need a bit more than an old faded paint chip to duplicate a correct shade. This is a big problem in this day and age.

A paint booth eliminates a lot of problems but not all. I've had good paint jobs come out when painted in all sorts of environments. I just takes careful planning and set up to minimize all the problems that can happen whether out doors or in doors with no booth. Temperature is a very important factor. Lighting, ambient air flow, dust, bugs, and other environment & equipment factors can seem an insurmountable problem list but it can be overcome with proper planning and execution.