1932 Roadster - Rear Hood Hinge Bracket?

[glennpm]

Hi,

I never had a rear hood hinge bracket so just bought one from Drake. The rear, wide part fits well but the front does not sit down against the cowl. Is the bracket at fault or is there a spacer or something that fills the space?

Thinks,
Glenn

[Charlie Stephens]

Attached are a couple of photos from my "barn find" '32. Unless they changed configuration somewhere along the line it looks like you have the wrong part. I wonder if there is a similar part for later years and they sent you the wrong one. Then there is the "remote" possibility that there was a mistake in the manufacturing.

Charlie Stephens

[glennpm]

Thanks Charlie, those are great pictures. My cowl and firewall were unmolested but it looks like the depression on my firewall is deeper than yours. Looks like I'll need to make a 1/4" thick spacer. I just measured it.

[DavidG]

Normally, the Drake reproduction fits fine. Judging from your photos it appears that the flange on your firewall is bent down and is not perfectly parallel with the surface of the cowl top. The other possible contributing factor might be that you are using a reproduction rubber strip between the firewall and the cowl. The reproduction strip is junk and thicker than the original strip which would create a gap between the lip on the firewall and the bottom of the front of the hood hinge bracket.

[Krylon32]

I've used many Drake rear hinge bracket on several original cars and they all fit fine. I've had to make a few adjustments on the Brookville cars I've built. I agree on the rubber strip being junk!

[glennpm]

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Yes, looking at it now, the repro rubber is too thick. I'm stuck with it now and will make a spacer.

Thanks to all for your input!

[woodiewagon46]

Glenn, If you keep the hinge higher than you should won't you raise the rear of the hood. Why not trim the rubber to allow the hinge bracket to sit where it should? Also even if you do try to lower it, will the hinge mount clear the two stampings on ether side? I would make it fit like Charlies.

[glennpm]

No since the back of the bracket is flush with the cowl as it should be and per Charlie's pics of the original, the back of the hinge will sit correctly relative to the cowl. However the cowl is sitting higher than it should due to the thickness of the rubber. I got the gap down to a little less than 3/16" by tightening the back bracket mount bolts.

The only way to fix the rubber is to lift the body enough to get it out. I won't be doing that unless I must. Wish I knew about this before though!

Thanks

[glennpm]

Well looking at the available gasket seals this morning. Is the one by Drake a true reproduction?

David would you have a picture and thickness of an original? I looked through my "The 1935 Ford Book" but didn't find any text or pictures of it under the cowl sections or rubber parts appendices.

Looks like this has been discussed before too:

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104782

Drake's

https://www.bobdrake.com/FordItem.aspx?Item=B-35336

Thanks

[DavidG]

I'm away from my car stuff until late next week. I can provide measurements and a photo of the cross section of it at that time. The original seal is of uniform thickness except for the raised lip on the forward edge, unlike the reproduction. Why the original was not copied is a mystery, but an old one as the faulty reproduction has been on the market for decades.

[glennpm]

Thanks David.

Yes even the Bob Drake one has a lip at the back. I just measured at the bottom edge of my cowl and the gasket I have is about 5/16* thick. I got to thinking about this in bed last night and thinking that I may be able to pull out the present one with a slight lift of the body. Since the correct one has no back lip, I may be able to slide a replacement in. In the thread I linked above, someone (rbullockv8) ground theirs down.

It would still be a lot of work to loosen the front body bolts up to allow a bit of freedom so still not sure about doing it. My concern is that I could possibly get too much compression of the firewall welting and rub the inside of the hood there and on the matching firewall surface. It might throw off the correct alignment of the back of the front fenders too.

[DavidG]

If you leave the reproduction seal in place, it won't affect the fit of the front fenders as they do not at any point attach to the body. What could result, however, is a hood fit problem. Assuming that your radiator shell is at its stock height in its installed position, your cowl will no longer be at its stock height because of the added thickness of the seal and your hood side panels will not line up properly as the openings for them between the cowl sides and the sides of the radiator shell will no longer be 'square'. Rather those openings for the hood side panels will be a slight parallelogram.

One alternative is to raise the radiator by the same amount as the gap beneath the rear hood hinge bracket, but that will create another unintended consequence, namely that the hood latches will have to stretch further to catch the lips on the hood side panels (assuming that you'll be running a stock hood) and that puts more strain on both the hood latches and the lips on the hood side panels as well as increasing the gap between the bottom of the hood side panels and the tops of the front fender ledges.

[glennpm]

Boy what a conundrum this is! I will be running a hood. Measured gap this morning at 5/32"

Thanks David.

[deuce_roadster]

This is why I save the firewall rubber seal, they usually are in good enough shape to re use and they fit. I think the main reason the Drake ones don't work is that the rubber doesn't compress. If it were softer it would probably work fine.

[rbullockv8]

My original firewall seal was cracked and not savable, so I ordered a new one (not sure from where now, since I'd had it for years before I needed it and no longer had the plastic bag). Like above, it was far too thick, and wouldn't even allow the cowl to slide down far enough to bolt to the frame. I spent an hour or two using a mini belt sander (from Harbor Freight--one of the handiest tools ever) and sanded the hump off the entire new seal until it matched the profile of my old one. That did the trick, but it was a messy job. Not sure why someone can't make a correct seal for these.

[glennpm]

Thanks rbullock,

Had you already mounted your body and then jacked it up to put the modified gasket in?

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Thanks David.

Yes even the Bob Drake one has a lip at the back. I just measured at the bottom edge of my cowl and the gasket I have is about 5/16* thick. I got to thinking about this in bed last night and thinking that I may be able to pull out the present one with a slight lift of the body. Since the correct one has no back lip, I may be able to slide a replacement in. In the thread I linked above, someone (rbullockv8) ground theirs down.

It would still be a lot of work to loosen the front body bolts up to allow a bit of freedom so still not sure about doing it. My concern is that I could possibly get too much compression of the firewall welting and rub the inside of the hood there and on the matching firewall surface. It might throw off the correct alignment of the back of the front fenders too.

Without seeing what you have it is hard to tell but any chance you are putting the seal in backwards? There is supposed to be a lip at the front.

Charlie Stephens

[glennpm]

Hi Charlie,

I took a picture and then a screenshot with Drake's seal along the side. It is installed correctly I believe. The seal is 9/64" thick per my measurement. If you look closely at the picture you can see a little gap between the "bumps" on the right side within the included triangle.

I have a replacement seal coming to me and will sand it down until I get stock thickness. David Rehor was kind to offer pictures and thickness later this week of an original seal.

Thanks,
Glenn

[glennpm]

Today I loosened all of the body to frame carriage bolts from the front to the back of the doors where the rear running board brackets are located. I then blocked under the front of the body and alternately jacked each side by hand until I had enough space to pry with a plastic paddle and then pull the center out with pliers. From there I could pull the gasket out along the top to the vertical part of the firewall to body joint.

I'm undecided now on how to proceed. The seal in the vertical sections is tight and I can't get much space to pull the seal out. I believe that I could pull it but don't know if I could get the replacement back in. Maybe if it was warmer, about high 30's in the garage today, and I liberally lube it up with WD40 or tire lube, I could perhaps slide it in. I don't think it will push just down from the top. I think I would have to push it in from the front into the groove.

The other option is to replace just the top section from where the cowl starts the curve around the top pretty much the section I have pulled out in my pictures. That would fix the height of the body and the rear bracket issue but the cowl would still be a little wider than it should be by probably about 1/8" each side.

The gasket that I have in now is .304 or just about 5/16" thick. The bump on the top edge close to the vertical leg and the ones on the bottom are giving this over thickness of 5/16"

[hotrodA]

Good info here for us new-to-32 guys. Thanks, guys!

But Ol' Bob says, right there in his ad, "an exact copy of the original", which is why I bought his, along with A LOT of other stuff. Guess I had better check mine before I go through all this agony.

@glennpm: that maroon is gorgeous!! Stock color? Do you have a modern code?

[glennpm]

Thanks hotrodA, glad to help you ahead of time.

I love the maroon color too. It is very dark out of light, but the wonderful in light or with a flash. The color is a 1969 Mercedes one pass, i.e. no clear coat.

It's DB542 (Mercedes Code). Dupont acrylic enamel 8342A.

Glenn

[glennpm]

I don't want to get off topic here but I was also talking with bullockv8 about the front Bob Drake hinge bracket. It is not an accurate reproduction either. The hole center to center spacing is wrong, too wide and has to be ground and re-drilled to get it to fit. I had an original with deteriorated plating to compare it to.

[hotrodA]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Thanks hotrodA, glad to help you ahead of time.

I love the maroon color too. It is very dark out of light, but the wonderful in light or with a flash. The color is a 1969 Mercedes one pass, i.e. no clear coat.

It's DB542 (Mercedes Code). Dupont acrylic enamel 8342A.

Glenn

Thank you!!

[glennpm]

Hi David,

I was able to get the old/repro seal out a few days ago. I also got some good pictures of an original along with a thickness measurement of 0.21" approximately from rbullockv8. Thanks Rich!

You mention keeping the rear bump in place so if so, the only way to realistically remove rubber with a grinder or sander, would be to take material off of the bottom, especially toward the front bottom corner of the seal.

I will reduce the larger thickness on the bottom toward the front. Should I leave the small raised bump on the rear, the part closet to the interior when installed? Does your original measure about 0.21" or what?

Thanks,
Glenn

Originally Posted by DavidG

I'm away from my car stuff until late next week. I can provide measurements and a photo of the cross section of it at that time. The original seal is of uniform thickness except for the raised lip on the forward edge, unlike the reproduction. Why the original was not copied is a mystery, but an old one as the faulty reproduction has been on the market for decades.

[DavidG]

Take the rear 'bump' off as it serves no useful purpose and it certainly would hinder the removal of the firewall. I gather that you no longer need a photo of an original, correct?

[glennpm]

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Hi David,

Okay I'll remove the rear hump, the one closest to the rear when installed. I'm good on pictures, thanks to rbulloock.

Could you please tell me what thickness your seal/s is please? Rich measured about 0.21"

Thanks you and appreciate the help!

[DavidG]

I measured two originals that are not yet installed back in their cars and both are 7/32", which is close enough to .21 to call them all the same as I was not using a digital caliper. The thickness is uniform over their entire width except for the bead on the engine compartment side (when installed).

[glennpm]

Excellent, thanks David!

[rbullockv8]

I actually ground away most of the upper middle hump that you label in the photo "Grind any of this away?" I don't remember working on the bottom of the seal at all, but I might have.

[glennpm]

Good thanks Rich.

First step will be to remove the small hump to the right in my pictures, the one toward the car interior. I'm then going to try to grind and sand both the top and bottom humps closest to the seal tee leg to attempt a uniform thickness of 7/32" or .201.

[32phil]

Just a side note. Don't forget to take paint "build up" into consideration, especially on the inner surfaces that are not sanded as much during the paint process. Today, with Primers/Filler Sealers and Base coat/Clear coat finishes it can build up fast. On my 32 Phaeton we couldn't put the hood hinge in because of the paint (Lacquer on that one, 20+ yrs ago) build up in the center hood hinge channel.

[glennpm]

I hear you on the paint buildup Phil.

Okay, I got a new gasket today. The rubber seems softer than the one I had in but its been a while. I'm now debating on what to grind.

- Taking off the back edge bumps top and bottom, the ones that point into the interior
- rbullock thinks he may have just ground and sanded the top to get the target thickness
- I'm thinking about removing all of the hump on the front, firewall bottom side. From my measurements, I get .21 if that hump is removed.
- Calipers are set at .21" in my last picture so you can see what I mean by removing the bottom hump.

[rbullockv8]

Pic #3 looks good!

1. The front lip (showing facing downward in your first photo) is the only part visible between the firewall and cowl, so it doesn't impact the fit. I think the main problem is the combination of the forward bottom of that lip along with the center hump. And maybe it's just the center hump that's the problem.
2. I suspect removal of the back edge bead might make it easier for you to reinstall since you are squeezing it into limited space between the firewall and cowl. Just a guess. Hope you can try it.
3. You might be right about removing the bottom hump (facing upward in the first photo) to get to .21".

However, no matter how soft the rubber is, you don't get much compression when it's spread out over the top 2.5 - 3 feet of the cowl. You just can't compress it much across an area that wide. If I get under my dash, I can see some gaps where my modified seal doesn't, well, seal. Guess I ground it too much. But I'm not going to be driving this in the rain, so I'm not worried. Many other gaps/holes in an open cab pickup.

One other thing: The right thickness for my truck might be different for your roadster. I'm sure the firewalls are the same, but the body cowls are different. Therefore, you might have a different fit and results.

Finally, isn't it amazing how some dumb thing like this takes so much time!! :-).

[glennpm]

Thanks Rich for responding again!

1. The front lip (showing facing downward in your first photo) is the only part visible between the firewall and cowl, so it doesn't impact the fit. I think the main problem is the combination of the forward bottom of that lip along with the center hump. And maybe it's just the center hump that's the problem.

Yes, agreed. I'm leaving this part of the seal as is.

2. I suspect removal of the back edge bead might make it easier for you to reinstall since you are squeezing it into limited space between the firewall and cowl. Just a guess. Hope you can try it.

Yes, even though it fits within the "0.21" envelope for the most part, removing this rear lip will make it a whole lot easier to reinsert especially along the vertical section between the cowl and firewall.

3. You might be right about removing the bottom hump (facing upward in the first photo) to get to .21".

Yes by taking off the bottom hump, I meet the thickness envelope and I can monitor better the amount of rubber I'm removing. This would be a lot tougher on the top hump. I don't have one of those fancy HF sanders like you do ;-)

However, no matter how soft the rubber is, you don't get much compression when it's spread out over the top 2.5 - 3 feet of the cowl. You just can't compress it much across an area that wide.

Yes, I know and should have left that comment off. It is still relatively hard and to get it to compress uniformly, it would probably take 100lbf.

If I get under my dash, I can see some gaps where my modified seal doesn't, well, seal. Guess I ground it too much. But I'm not going to be driving this in the rain, so I'm not worried. Many other gaps/holes in an open cab pickup.

I don't plan much rain riding either.

One other thing: The right thickness for my truck might be different for your roadster. I'm sure the firewalls are the same, but the body cowls are different. Therefore, you might have a different fit and results.

Yes

Finally, isn't it amazing how some dumb thing like this takes so much time!!

Absolutely!! When I was re-posting, I was thinking the same thoughts and also ... these guys are waiting for me to go away and give this thing up :-)

It was very hard to get out so I don't plan to do any trials on this!! Amazing that this "perfect replacement" is so not.

Glenn
:-).[/QUOTE]

[glennpm]

Okay, follow up on my too thick seal problem for the record and next guy.

I used a small electric sander with 100 grit paper and modded the rubber as I had planned above. I removed a good part of the innermost hump, the raised portion on the front bottom edge and then last; the top hump in the elbow part of the seal.

I had to go back and forth on the whole seal a number of times measuring as I trimmed. For the last part, as I was getting close to my target thickness of 0.21", I took measurements with a caliper every couple of inches, worked thicker parts and then repeated. I went back and forth the whole length three or four times until all was uniform.

Today I sprayed both surfaces of the seal with dry Teflon lube and let it dry well. I started in the middle by the brackets and worked the center in by hand. I worked along each side from there using a wood block, rubber hammer and hand prying to get it all in. The bottom of each was trimmed to fit. It went in without too much trouble. It took me maybe an hour to install the seal.

I put the hinge bracket in a little while ago and will now pull the rest the cowl down tight and see if I need to change any of the front three body to frame shims per side next. Fit is good now after sanding away about 1/8" of rubber thickness!

[DavidG]

One easy-to-overlook-until-later byproduct of an overly thick seal is that if you're using a stock instrument panel and a stock firewall, the dash light switch and throttle openings in the instrument panel will end up being below center in the oval opening in a stock dash. That's not such a big deal with most model Bs, but it may lower the hole for the choke rod on V-8s to the point that the choke rod escutcheon will not clear the top of the bottom of the stainless steel oval moulding on the inside perimeter of the oval opening.

[rbullockv8]

Nice job, glennpm! You're a craftsman compared to me. :-) And the fit of your rear hood hinge bracket looks perfect. Glad you were able to get the seal back in without much trouble.

[glennpm]

Thanks Rich! Its going better than I thought too.

[Baron]

I ran into this very same problem this afternoon and checking here found out exactly what I need to do. Thanks to all for this information.

[glennpm]

Excellent! This group is a great place for help and information.