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04-29-2021, 10:01 AM | #1 |
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Sitting engine - ATF?
TLDR: was told by an old timer to put Automatic Transmission Fluid into the cylinders and turn it over 3-4x and let it sit over night then repeat it 3-4 nights in a row. Fill to the top? Drain the pan each night? What about all the atf that ends up in the intake and exhaust manifolds?
Background: I inherited a 28 Tudor back in the mid 90’s. It’s been in my family since it was purchased. It was left to me by my Uncle who was an extremely mechanical farmer/machinist. He was born right after the car was made so wanted to keep it and restore it when his uncle was ready to let it go. Cancer took my uncle way back and I was still in college at the time. With no place to work on it and no $ I let it sit (inside storage the whole time). I moved it to my garage in 2008. It’s sat there ever since as I built up books and did a ton of reading. I’ve finally started working on it. A guy on my team (bicycle racing - I own a bike shop and wheel company) - his dad is massively into A’s and T’s and has supposedly had 30-40 cars over time. He’s steered me well in the last year or two but the communication is fairly one way and over long periods via email. He’s up there in age and I hate bothering him so I’m here [emoji16] My car was left in immaculate mechanical shape. It was prepped and stored I believe. I think every time my uncle ran it he drained everything except the oil and trans and probably steering box. There’s oil in there that is fresh and looks brand new. Car hasn’t ran or been driven since at least ‘93 or ‘94. I have no doubts it will fire right up but the old timer advised me to fill each cylinder with Automatic Transmission Fluid (plugs out of course) and turn the engine over 3-4x then let it sit over night. To then repeat that every day for 4 days or so. When asked about some specifics I didn’t get full answers so I’m here. Specifically I was wondering 1. Do I fill it all the way up to the spark plug holes (he said "fill it up")? If I do won’t it just spill out everywhere when I turn the engine over by hand? Also won’t it just dive down the valves and end up pooling in the intake and exhaust manifolds? Then when I put plugs in it later won’t it just immediately foul them? 2. I had already put about a tablespoon of 30w oil in each cylinder and let it sit. Then I went to crank it by hand and it turned very easily - with that in mind and knowing my uncle I get the feeling he may have even fogged the engine when he put it up last - do I really need to do the atf bit? Thanks and sorry for the long post. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by psimet; 04-29-2021 at 10:24 AM. |
04-29-2021, 10:13 AM | #2 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
The underlying concept is that ATF is highly detergent, so if you put it in the cylinders and turn it over a few times, you're wiping the cylinder walls with it. The theory is that this dissolves any accumulated build-up. However, you would want to use as little as possible to accomplish the goal, and you'd want to put it actually in the cylinders.
Decent chance that this is a solution in search of a problem. |
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04-29-2021, 10:16 AM | #3 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Oil that look "fresh and brand new" can be oil that has set in the pan for 30 years and all the dirt settled out and is thick in the bottom of the pan, drain it at least, even if you save it in a clean pan, ----if no oil comes out the sludge is quite thick and after you poke it to drain the oil take the pan off to clean it, probably advisable on any engine that has sat a long time , after the oil as been drained feel around with a piece of wire and see what you find ---this will help you decide if you drop the pan
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04-29-2021, 10:19 AM | #4 | |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Quote:
Yeah I have a borescope that I was able to look into each cylinder with. Was planning on sending it into the pan but I have an early A that has the oil pan plate/clean out on it. I Plan on dropping that before the pan if possible. I can then send the borescope up that way and check things out. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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04-29-2021, 10:26 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Quote:
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04-29-2021, 02:00 PM | #6 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
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04-30-2021, 12:45 AM | #7 | |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Quote:
Ron Last edited by Model A Ron; 04-30-2021 at 12:51 AM. |
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04-30-2021, 07:48 AM | #8 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Last night I was working on the distributor and noticed I could clean the oil fill tube outside and cap. The coating is sludge I saw on the baffles inside as well as inside the cap - yeah I ordered oil pan gaskets. Pulling it while the engine is in the car will be fun I’m sure.
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04-30-2021, 08:34 AM | #9 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
ATF is basically a low viscosity lubricant with additives to allow it to act as both a good hydraulic oil and good friction modifier for clutch plate lock up as well as a corrosion resistant coating for internal parts.
Some folks mix it with acetone to turn it into a fairly decent penetrating oil. The earlier types available from the mid 70s on were mineral based products such as Dexron II and Ford type F. Modern types are mostly synthetic based lubricants. Running old engines that have set for long periods depends upon how well the engine has been stored and what kind of shape it was in when it was laid up. While ATF is a lubricant, by itself, it's not good at penetating into old sticky piston rings and valves. The Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) is better for that. A person doesn't have to fill it up. It just needs to be well coated and left to sit for a day or two to do the job. I would advise against running anything other than regular motor oil during start up. If you put a lot of crud desolvers into a dirty engine then all that crud will start to break free and get drawn up into the oil system as it is. This could be problematic for the main and rod bearings which are the poured babbitt type. The suggestion to remove the oil pan is not a bad idea if there is a lot of crud in there. It would be the best way to insure a clean crud free start up. It also gives an opportunity to check out the condition of things in there. |
04-30-2021, 07:35 PM | #10 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
"Pulling it while the engine is in the car will be fun I’m sure. "
It’s pretty easy unless you have engine pans. Then it becomes more work, but not hard. Turn your steering to move the tie rod out of the way. Plan to support your oil pump in some way or be prepared when the pan comes down for it to drop too. Don’t torque the pan bolts too much when replacing them, just snug and firm is fine. Be careful with the oil return tube; don’t torque that , just snug it up. The solder on the two ends is also fragile, especially after 91 years. Be careful. Soak your front gasket (the thick white one) overnight in oil. Put sealant on the ends of the gaskets where they meet the crankshaft.
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04-30-2021, 07:55 PM | #11 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Following on Ray's suggestions above, install your pan bolts with a 1/4" ratchet to prevent breaking a bolt in one of the more awkward places.
While you are squandering your retirement $$, buy valve cover & oil return pipe gaskets. Check how clean & if the valves have adjustable or old solid lifters. Nothing to touch currently but nice to know in the future. Yes, drop the oil pan & clean the oil pump screen as well. Nice to remove the 'mystery' from that engine.....especially before you start it. Best, |
04-30-2021, 08:16 PM | #12 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Another suggestion: before trying to reinstall the pan, find or buy four bolts identical to the pan bolts or longer, cut the heads off, cut a screwdriver size groove in one end of each, and screw them into the pan bolt holes in the four corners of the block to act as guide bolts when you raise the pan. I always use a piece of 2x4 or 2x6 on a small hydraulic jack to raise the pan from the underside. (The 2x4/2x6 prevents denting the pan with the jack).
I find it easier to affix the gaskets with a sealant to the pan, rather than the block, before installion, but I’ve seen it done both ways. Also pop the dipper tray out so you can get all the sludge out of the bottom, if there is any. Take care not to bend the end of the pan or distort the tray while doing this.
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Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole. Last edited by 700rpm; 04-30-2021 at 08:22 PM. |
05-03-2021, 09:56 PM | #13 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
If there is sludge, you’ll probably want to pull the valve chamber cover and clean as well. If you do, MAKE SURE you plug the main bearings and cam feeder holes so crud,ect doesn’t go down them.
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05-04-2021, 06:32 AM | #14 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Also, hope you didn't buy the cork/rubber composite gaskets. After one year on mine they swelled up and leaked. Junk.
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05-04-2021, 07:38 AM | #15 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
An article in the Restorer magazine Mar-Apr 2002 gives an excellent step-by-step procedure for leak-free pan gasket installation.
You don't give a location in your posting but if you are not in a local club, consider joining.....
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05-07-2021, 10:29 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Quote:
I believe I am in the process of receiving a membership to MAFCA. Any link to the article or anyone have it and willing to share? I can’t email or private message on here yet due to still being new (love old forum techniques for keeping the spammers at bay). I did drain the oil last night. Definite sludge in there but the “top oil” was in amazingly good shape. I have an early pan with a clean out. We dropped that and the oil pump comes with it. I was surprised though as the spring under the pump wasn’t attached to the pump like in most drawings I have seen. It was attached to the clean out plate in the pan I’ve put 30w oil in 2 more times in the cylinders and swapped to marvel mystery oil. The engine turns over by hand super easy now with the plugs out. With them just slightly to the side I can hear the sucking of air and compression blowing through the spark plug holes. This thing is going to fire easy... as soon as I get the fuel and spark sorted of course 😁 |
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05-07-2021, 10:40 AM | #17 | |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
Quote:
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...etail/A-6781-C |
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05-07-2021, 11:25 AM | #18 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
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05-07-2021, 11:51 AM | #19 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
There are a number of model A guys in Elgin. If you need some help let me know. Rog
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05-07-2021, 11:59 AM | #20 |
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Re: Sitting engine - ATF?
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