Banger Fuel Injection

[jeepguy1948]

Forget about why you don’t like the thought of installing Fuel Injection on a Model A. If it has not been done yet, it will. Ever since the Holley Sniper came out for the 6 Cyl. Ford (Autolite 1 Barrel Carb) there has been a lot of different motors that it can readily be adapted to. I have a ‘48 Willys Jeep with a 134 CI Flathead 4 which is quite similar to a Model A engine and I know at least 2 guys have installed the Sniper on their Jeeps. While the actual displacement of the motor is really not that important it is worth noting that the motor that this Sniper was designed for a 200” CI motor which of course, I the same as the Model A motor. This post is not intended to start a debate about weather yo like the idea or not, this thread is intended to explore hypothetical, gee whiz information/ideas. The only things that I am aware of that are possible trouble areas are that a sensor must be installed in the exhaust within a short distance from the manifold (this would be simple if you can weld (I can’t). The other thing is that there cannot be any vacuum or exhaust leaks (you don’t want those anyway). You would need 12 volts with an alternator. You need a return line to the fuel tank (you can use an external electric fuel pump you don’t have to have the pump inside the tank) This might be the trickiest item to deal with). Obviously a downdraft intake would be required (either a downdraft manifold or a “U” adapter to the stock manifold) although in actual fact I don’t think the actual Sniper unit cares about how it’s oriented (that’s one of the reasons they appeal to Jeepers that deal with steep terrain). I am not talking necessarily about a “Hot Rod” type of application, the Sniper greatly improves drivability over a carburetor.

[JOHNCL]

Electronic fuel injection is complicated. Therefore, case studies are needed to get past the assorted hurdles, physical and psychological. Car magazines have been supplying such stories for quite a few years for hot rod engines. Hopefully, some interested people can supply useful references for us 4-banger fans. Naysayers (aka traditionalists) will tell us their feelings loudly, but I think this thread is long overdue and now quite valid given Terry Burtz's engine foundation and its many adopters. My Burtz engine loves to rev with its modest 6:1 Snyder's head, dual #81 Strombergs, tubular exhaust header, and Honda distributor. As Steve Serr and others can attest from dyno testing, getting air/fuel ratios consistent across cylinders and engine operating conditions is challenging with carbs. Maybe it would be easier with electronic fuel injection.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by JOHNCL

Electronic fuel injection is complicated.

The new ones are pretty idiot proof. An air/fuel sensor in the exhaust is about all that is needed for the brain to tune itself.



There are hose clamp type connectors for the 02 sensor - so no welding.
The return line does not have to go back to the tank - only to the low side of the fuel pump. We put one together with a T at the inlet to the pump for the return.


I don't see why it wouldn't work as an updraft - there is no float bowl.


https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-552

• Simple Calibration Wizard (answer a few questions about your engine and it creates the base map, then starts tuning on its own!) - NO laptop required!
• Self-tuning ECU means you don’t have to be a computer/tuning wiz to have EFI!
• The included Genuine Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor provides realtime Fuel Map Learn!

[GeneBob]

I was interested and even ordered one but I could not convince myself that the "T" would work for the return line so I canceled my order. I thought the return flow would create too much trouble in feeding the fuel pump and cause pressure on the return line that would cause problems for the fuel injection. Otherwise, I find it very interesting.
I thought it would maximize gas mileage while eliminating concerns about excessively lean conditions.

[ModelA29]

There is no pressure/restriction on the line from the tank. With the T at the inlet of the pump any excess fuel on that side from the return just flows back into the tank. As the fuel consumption goes up the pump just pulls from the same line.

[jeepguy1948]

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ModelA29, that’s good info I had not thought of that for the return.

[johnneilson]

EFI works very well on Model A motors, some are just a little more complicated than others.
This one has been 180 mph...

John

[jeepguy1948]

As I said, I have gotten most of my info thru the Jeep community. And just for the record; this is not about more horsepower it’s about driveability (the better economy is basically the gravy that would pay for the Sniper).

[jeepguy1948]

It has the capability of operating the spark advance function as well but it does not have to in order to function. Our distributors, stock or electronic will not work for that function.

[jeepguy1948]

John, I feel I need to explain something, I was typing in my comment about horsepower and just as i hit “post” your post popped up. It looks like I am commenting on your post but that is not the case. Sorry. The whole idea has a lot of appeal and I am giving it serious consideration. I am no rocket scientist however and I’m leaning toward letting one wiser than me do it first (also, brakes are a much stronger contender for my “car cash” at the moment). I’m glad I started this thread, good ideas bouncing around.

[denis4x4]

Been There done that. I used the old Mooneye's unit that resembles a 97. Since it was in my Zipper roadster with an aluminum gas tank, it was easy to install a return fuel line. Biggest problem was finding a place for the CPU. Came with a small box that could change settings while driving. Was a lot of money and not that much return. Would not do it again!

[rotorwrench]

The way the intake ports feed the engine on the A engine, the only practical way to use fuel injection would be on an overhead valve conversion where there are separate ports to feed the mixture. A person may be better off with a fuel tank mounted in a more practical location for fuel pump needs.

This sort of puts a model A in a street rod category since there was not much for fuel injection back in the traditional hot rod era.

[katy]

Good info, thanks.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The way the intake ports feed the engine on the A engine, the only practical way to use fuel injection would be on an overhead valve conversion where there are separate ports to feed the mixture.

If the Holley was port injection I would agree but with throttle body injection, not so much.

That said, I'll stick with my Marvel Schebler.

[jeepguy1948]

CPU is built into the Sniper. Willys 4 banger does not have any better intake than a Model A does and Sniper works very well in that application. I don’t want to get into a pissing contest about this, just want to bounce ideas and experiences around. The sniper in many ways is an electronic carburetor so it can replace any comparably sized carburetor (they have several sizes) and with the air/fuel sensor in the exhaust can much better deal with the imperfect intake system than a carburetor can.

[johnneilson]

There is just a lot of bad information out there, especially for this technology.

the only downside I can see with the Mod"A" is going to be the O2 sensor.
the piston ring package is marginal at best and I would expect oil fouling to be an issue.
this can be addressed with new pistons and a modern ring package.

if you can set up the system, make a tune and then stop the correction you may get away with it, chasing a sensor deteriorating is usually detrimental.

John

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The way the intake ports feed the engine on the A engine, the only practical way to use fuel injection would be on an overhead valve conversion where there are separate ports to feed the mixture. A person may be better off with a fuel tank mounted in a more practical location for fuel pump needs.

This sort of puts a model A in a street rod category since there was not much for fuel injection back in the traditional hot rod era.

It would be difficult if not impossible to set up a intake port EFI based on the OHV heads currently on the market for Model A or B engines.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

It would be difficult if not impossible to set up a intake port EFI based on the OHV heads currently on the market for Model A or B engines.

Denis,
not really, this intake induction could be approached a couple different ways.
Knowing the CFM of the intake TB, you could size two injectors and place one on each end of the intake. But better due to crankshaft and port layout it would be better to have the injectors feeding at the TB.
The direct port injection that you are referring to is best, but as you say requires a 4 port (individual) port design. Such as the Price 4 port Cragar, Serr 8 port (near finished development) and a Riley 4 port head.
What Jeep is talking about is a TB with injectors in one unit, very similar to the older TBI done by GM, back in 80's?

A record was set at Bonneville with a std port arrangement flathead motor.
It had two injectors spraying in each of the ports very close to the block. It was fully sequential and was to allow tune for each of the cyls.

John

[Dave in MN]

I ordered the Holley Sniper Autolite 1100 EFI system three weeks ago and plan to try it on the ’31 Town Sedan I am currently tweaking for road trips. The car has a Burtz block, Miller Hi-Speed Head, FSI ignition and a T-5 Transmission. The drive train is "worked" as I pull a clam-shell teardrop trailer when traveling.

I currently have two Stromberg 81’s installed on the car with a progressive linkage where the secondary carb starts opening at half throttle of the primary carb. This system works kind of… just okay. I have made multiple jet changes and have not been able to tune out two lean spots in the throttle position. The engine lurches when the mixture goes lean and glancing at the temporary air/fuel (A:F) mixture gauge I have onboard, the mixture is often 16:1 or leaner. Most of the time the A:F mixture is between 11:1 and 14:1 and at that ratio area, the engine runs well.

I am also not satisfied with the overall fuel economy I am getting. I hope the EFI helps raise the mpg some.

I am installing a 5-gallon belly tank under the car to act as a buffer tank for the EFI return line. The original fuel tank feeds the belly tank by gravity, and this requires a vent to atmosphere for the belly tank. The extra fuel capacity will be appreciated when on the road. I am also designing the system so I can easily change back to a single Stromberg 97 and a low-pressure fuel pump should the EFI system fail when on the road far from home. I will stow the pump and carb under the front seat.

I contacted Holley last week in regard to the expected delivery of my order. They indicated it would be another 7 weeks before they shipped. That is about 10 weeks from order to delivery if they meet their schedule. This time interval gives me concern should I have a failure while on the road and find myself in need of a replacement part. For me, a large part of calling a road trip a success is making it home without a trailer or transport hauler. Carrying a replacement carb and fuel pump is my planning in advance to have a successful trip. I hope to have this car ready to leave for a trip to Alaska in the spring of 2023.

I know, this project is entirely silly and unnecessary so feel free to agree with me. I’m having fun with it though; so silly or not, it doesn’t matter.
Good Day!

[jeepguy1948]

I agree with you 100% Dave, it’s your car do whatever the heck you want with it. I am really looking forward to your progress, please keep us posted.