Headlight Bars

[Jim Parker Toronto]

It has been brought to my attention that the headlight bars for 28/29 and 30/31 are different. (not counting the pressed steel 30 model) Why is there no reference to this in the Judging Standards? How do you know if the right one is being used? Are they interchangeable? Any help with this would be appreciated, Thanks, Jim

[Gary WA]

28-29 straight across,30-31 have an arch to them.Also the originals are split with a seam and drain holes?

[Roadster62]

I think the early 1928's have a Ford Script on them.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

It has been brought to my attention that the headlight bars for 28/29 and 30/31 are different. (not counting the pressed steel 30 model) Why is there no reference to this in the Judging Standards? How do you know if the right one is being used? Are they interchangeable? Any help with this would be appreciated, Thanks, Jim

Since they are not interchangeable and there are millions of pics out there of Model A's, it's tough for the authors to have the foresight that this is not common knowledge. Similarly we did not clearly distinguish the basic differences between '28-29 and '30-31 front fenders but have never seen them mixed on a car. As a side note it's unusual for someone totally new to Model A's to purchase the standards prior to purchasing a couple picture books!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Parker Toronto

It has been brought to my attention that the headlight bars for 28/29 and 30/31 are different. (not counting the pressed steel 30 model) Why is there no reference to this in the Judging Standards? How do you know if the right one is being used? Are they interchangeable? Any help with this would be appreciated, Thanks, Jim

Jim,
If these two images show, as intended, you will see that the 30/31 us curved..first chrome pic; second pic 28/29 is flat as stated above! Hope these help explain to you somewhat.
BTW..do not believe that the two are interchangeable. Should also say that you could do anything that you wish...mabe put a v8 flatty and '32 headlight bar on anything !!

[Roadster62]

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You can install a 28-29 on a 30-31, the doodle bug at the shop has one.

[Ray in La Mesa]

I put a '30-'31 bar on my rusty '28 yard art because that's what I had and it fit fine.

[Deluxe Delivery]

I once mounted a 29 bar on a 30. It took some "persuasion" and a few magic words, but it can be done. It puts the headlights up a little higher. I knew the proportions didn't look right, but it took a friend's new set of eyes to point out my goof. All was corrected with no dammage to anything. ( other than my pride)

[mot]

they must have made some with the 29 bars and 30 headlamps
check out the beauty on ebay right now
120796793990

[CarlG]

My 31 Budd cab PU (in my avitar) has the 29 headlight bar on it.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

As a side note it's unusual for someone totally new to Model A's to purchase the standards prior to purchasing a couple picture books!

Thanks, I am not new to Model A's, and admit that I do not know everything, that"s why I asked. I felt that's what this forum is for. I have owned my '28 since '92, but just acquired the '30 and it has the pressed steel headlight bar on it. One of my friends needs one for a fine point car, and I have a few of the 28/29 bars, and was just wondering if it would fit. (saving him the trouble of finding a replacement for me) I guess I never paid the attention to it I should have.
To everyone else, thanks for your replies, Jim

[Brentwood Bob]

I got something out of this thread. Thanks for asking the question Jim.

[pooch]

One said it fit fine and one said it needed persuasion.

Are they the same bolt hole spacing and distance across bolt holes from side to side?

[Deluxe Delivery]

And whats the deal on the pressed steel open bottom headlite bar? My Town Sedan has one. Are they original ? If so for what month/year ?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by pooch

One said it fit fine and one said it needed persuasion.

Are they the same bolt hole spacing and distance across bolt holes from side to side?

pooch,
In answer to you questions...look for yourself. I say NO and NO!

As stated earlier, a guy can and probably has force fitted/whatever onto whatever, but I still maintain...it ain't right(yikes..I sound just like a high points guy!!).

to clarify: the 'footprints' are different which is evident, but the spacing of the bolt holes in the 'footprint' pretty much match.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Deluxe Delivery

And whats the deal on the pressed steel open bottom headlite bar? My Town Sedan has one. Are they original ? If so for what month/year ?

As you can see in my pics posted just now...the 'seams and drain hole' in these two bars.
I have several of these original bars and they are all constructed same. I don't know of any and haven't seen any other type bar construction '28 thru '31.
Are you suggesting that their is/are other (original) type construction..not hot rod stuff?

[pooch]

Hardtimes, your pics seem to show the 30 as being a bit wider than the 28.

Could you supply a measurement of both, from each top bolthole centre to the other would be good.

thanks.

I have an original AR here to check, but the 30 bar I have is most likely bent, and don't have an original to check.

I am working with glass front fenders and repro fender braces, and am starting to suspect that the holes/bolt brace in the fender brace have been drilled and welded wrong.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

For all those that are interested, these pictures are of the "stamped steel" headlight bar that is unique to the early 30 cars. I do not know for sure when they started/stopped this feature, but it is an original part, not aftermarket....
The ends are forged/cast, but the bar is flat metal bent over on the top, and is open on the bottom. When I get it off next week, if I remember, I'll take some more pictures to detail it properly.
And thanks Hardtimes, you've gone over and above with your pictures and replies!

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by Timothy Kelly

In the for what it's worth department......



To further complicate matters, there exists a headlight bar that has the 1930 - 31 arch, but with 1928 - 29 feet. The first time I saw one, my reaction was that it must have been a manufacturing error. However, after thinking about it for a few minutes it occurred to me that the "mixed up" headlight bar was manufactured for use with the 1930 commercial vehicles produced up until about June of 1930 that used 1929 sheet metal. The "mixed up" headlight bar had feet to fit the 1929 fenders yet was arched to match the 1930 - 31 passenger cars.

Are you then suggesting Timothy that there are 4 different headlight bars, wow, what have I started???????

[hardtimes]

pooch,
your back wards, i.e.- the 'chrome' bar is the '30...IT IS SHORTER than the blk '28/'29 bar, BUT is it somewhat shorter lengthwise..due to its bend. I will measure both again, over the top of both for a full length measurement and get back with you !

What this means to me, is that the fenders of the '30 are a couple of inches closer..at the headlight bar attach area....than the '29 fenders..no?

[hardtimes]

Tim,
Thanks, for the info. It explains some q that I had too!

[hardtimes]

Jim P,
Your welcome and...thanks to you for being curious! I think that we all can/have learned some because of your curiosity. Looking forward also to seeing your bar in detail.

[pooch]

Must have been an optical illusion or too many beers.

But us aussies do the latter.

Would be good if you could place one over the other exactly and take a straight down shot with measurements.

Today I have cut off the welded hole braces and will let the fenders/bar sit where it fits the best and redrill and reweld.

Ahh...repro junk to work with is fun.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Doug Clayton's Low mileage Town Sedan was built in May 1930. The issue with these headlamp bars is they didn't withstand the abuse of the common bars so many have been replaced over the decades.

[Deluxe Delivery]

Thanks to Don and Marco. I have one of these on my April 30 Town Sedan and thought it was aftermarket. Now I won't have to replace it ! Shown is a close-up of the center of the bar, showing it's attaching slots for the plate.

[hardtimes]

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Originally Posted by pooch

Must have been an optical illusion or too many beers.

But us aussies do the latter.

Would be good if you could place one over the other exactly and take a straight down shot with measurements.

Today I have cut off the welded hole braces and will let the fenders/bar sit where it fits the best and redrill and reweld.

Ahh...repro junk to work with is fun.

pooch,
Ok , here's what I did just now. I measured both the bars that are pictured Couple of interesting 'things' noted. For instance, I can see how either bar could EASILY be substituted for the other.
These measurements are not EXACT, but close enough for what you/I need,eh!
I measured STRAIGHT ACROSS both bars ..the centers of the upper square holes: 42" upper hole ctr/ctr '28/.'29 (black) bar;
STRAIGHT ACROSS '30/'31 bar 42 1/2" ctr/ctr upper holes.
ON BOTH BARS: 2" on ctrs of the two mounting bolt holes.

Observations:
-even with the bend in the '30/'31 bar , it is an optical illusion that the bars are much different in overall length..with the '28/'29 MABE ONE INCH LONGER..overall length.
-there IS a difference in the distance between the light sockets of the two bars....with the '30/'31 being about 29" and the '28/'29 being about 30";
-one final observation, which was an odd one, was that both of my '30/'31 bars have a squared off side to the bottom of BOTH light sockets(as viewed from the bottom of the bar) and that the ''28/'29 bar has ONLY ONE squared off side to one socket..and not the other !
Anyone have a 'guess' what this is about? My guess is that the light socket on the horn side (end) of the light bar needs the squared off surface? But..WHY both sockets on the '30/'31 bars... mabe horns on both sides of some models/did ford change sides for horn position during differing years

Anyway, pooch...hope these measurements help youse
BTW..beers good !

[pooch]

Hardtimes, yup, those figures helped. Thanks.

My AR measures 41 1/2 and at the current arch on the 30 ( I have bent and rebent it to try and get it to fit, is 42 inches, so that tallys with 1/2 an inch bigger.

I still reckon the repro braces holes are drilled wrong.

I was beginning to think my repro bar was too wide. I will leave it 42.

What I need now is a measurement of an original 30 fender brace from , say, top one of 3 chassis holes to lower fender headlight bar hole AND/OR how far does the top of the bar sit to the line in the fender crown.

The glass fenders I am working with don't fit the arch of the 28 chassis, I have been told 28/30 chassis are the same except for front crossmember, so the fenders must be made wrong.

At least it gives us something to do when nothing fits.

['29wagon]

that clears some things up, and brings more to question.
do those measurements now determine where the headlight level part of the bar or the later case , center of arch, and how about where over all fender width and hight should land ? seeing some have mixed up parts what does that do ?
hoping that these fenders are correct to this frame. i think the headlight bar is correct.
wheels correct, spring sag.

[hardtimes]

pooch,
13 1/2" is that bolt to bolt measurement you asked for: i.e.- front top chassis brace bolt to lower brace/fender bolt ...make any sense?

BTW...my '30 is early..I think. It has round forged front fender braces. I'm not sure what is correct and/or stock due to MANY statements here regarding assembly line variations and previous owner type changes. Mabe they did come off of the assembly line with different types of braces,eh??

Note: It is apparent that (all) these braces can be BENT also to better match/attach to fender. I can imagine that slight adjustments via bending was/is practiced by assemblers..definitely when dealing with repo junk and/or abused old original parts.
If I were you, I'd try to make fenders match good/right light bar and make fender braces match that setup..no?

[Jim Parker Toronto]

I have one cast fender brace for my 30 that is 15" from center of lower hole to the frame to the lower headlight bolt. All 3 holes in the bottom of the brace are the same size. Can anyone say if this is this the correct brace or not? By the way, I need one more!

['29wagon]

four types of head light bars, three types of fender braces, and three types of fenders.
am i getting this right ?
from '28 through '31 ?
this must have been discussed in a "restorer" at some time along the way.
maybe a bulletin ?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by '29wagon

four types of head light bars, three types of fender braces, and three types of fenders.
am i getting this right ?
from '28 through '31 ?
this must have been discussed in a "restorer" at some time along the way.
maybe a bulletin ?

As far as interchangeable, that is about right as Ford made many things "backward compatible". When you go beyond those basics the numbers jump. Off the top of my head there are about nine subtle variations in front fenders and eight to nine NOT so subtle variations in front fender brackets. It's real easy when you get to the rears!

[pooch]

8 to 9 different fender brackets , wow.

My glass fenders seem to be from good moulds, so is the frame of a 28 /30 different from about the crossmember forward?