valve guides in 59ab

[Prawbly]

Before I even start I thought it might be interesting to know if there is a BEST way to remove valves guides n my 59 ab. I would really appreciate some comments on that because it looks like a rough job to do and not tear something up. - Pat

[Kurt in NJ]

It depends on what you are replacing,trying to save, sometimes the best way is to break off the valve heads, sometime ripping out the lock clips, sometime all that is needed is the tool to pull the guide down, there were many tools made to do this job, screw presses, lever tools , punches that fit around the valve head----sometimes all the methods are needed on the same engine

[JSeery]

The last 59a I took apart required breaking the valve heads off to drive out the guides on several of the valve guides. Sometimes they can be a real pain to get out.

[Terry,OH]

Use your guide bar to lower the valve guide slightly and use a needle nose plyers to pull the guide keeper off. Then use the guide bar to raise the guide, valve and spring out of the top of the block. If you need special tools look at Patricks web site. They make a valve puller (after removing the keeper)

[RalphM]

On real stubborn guides I use heat, as some do for stuck Pistons. A little flammable liquid in the right spot, light it, and when it goes out pry away!

[Prawbly]

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thanks you guys. Sounds like a battle no matter what tool or tools I have. Would heat be of any benefit ? I'll try Patricks' and see what a guide bar is. No matter it's not going to be nice. I just hate tearing something up like that, but I'll do what's necessary. Thanks again. Pat

[Terry,OH]

lube with lots of MMO before you start and wear gloves. Can be easy and can be a b.... you will not know until you start.

[flatjack9]

I wouldn't worry about the parts as you would probably install 1 piece 8BA guides and valves.

[Bassman/NZ]

A valve guide bar is nearly essential when mucking around with these engines. Makes life so much easier. I made a retainer remover out of 1/4" rod bent and ground down to fit in the retainer hole.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

A valve guide bar is nearly essential when mucking around with these engines.

That's true IF you can get the guides to move at all. I have had to get the valve head out of the way to get a good hit on the guides to get them to move enough to pull the horseshoe keepers. I know they make a tool to reach around the valve to tap the guides, but the valves are often not reusable anyway and some the guides are really stuck. I must dissemble engines in much worse condition that some others.

Also, just a comment on the valve bars, almost all of the repo ones I have tried to use are junk at best. I would suggest finding an original/time-period one. I have found a couple on ebay. Night and day difference over the newer ones IMHO.

This is one style of valve guide driver.

[flatheadmurre]

If its fairly stuck getting the guidelocks out in a destructive way and then the KD-918 clamp to get the assembly out.
That destroys a minimum of valve parts.
If its badly stuck brute force and bad language is involved.

[Jack E/NJ]

Yeah, even my old kd 240 prybar succumbed in trying to budge the guides. Had to use a drift from a ground-down open-end wrench that cleared the heads and stems enough to reach the guides. Looked a bit like the one JSeery posted above. Then hooked the horseshoes and pounded away. Just didn't have the heart to snap the heads off a good set of mushrooms. But the real fun part came when using the cam and wedges to push the semi-loosened guides out the ports. Had to use a cloth net to catch all the shrapnel once the spring-loaded guides finally let loose from their bores. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[flatjack9]

I put one through a garage window once.

[Shoebox]

Now I know this is going to sound harsh but,...... I have '38 24 stud that I was not going to reuse ANY of the valve train, and the guides were stuck pretty good. So I used a cutting torch and cut the valve springs and stems cleanly, pulled the valves out the top and using a drift, hammered the guides out into the valley area. I was done in little over an hour.

[flatjack9]

Been there, done that.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Now I know this is going to sound harsh but,...... I have '38 24 stud that I was not going to reuse ANY of the valve train, and the guides were stuck pretty good. So I used a cutting torch and cut the valve springs and stems cleanly, pulled the valves out the top and using a drift, hammered the guides out into the valley area. I was done in little over an hour.

Yup, a plasma cutter is even faster.

[Prawbly]

I'm beginning to see the light. I'll get my protective gear on and "Getherdone"
thanks to all, I appreciate it.

[Ol' Ron]

Your best bet is to find someone that's done it before. Also, I'd replace them with 8BA valves and guides. The early split guides had poor oil control

[big job]

My two cents, by now those long pry bars are useless they did work when the engine
probably was in its prime. Simply use a spring compressor remove keepers remove
springs, valves and bang the guide down with a 5/8 socket no damage what so ever.
Good practice to stick a magnet in the area of those little trolls 'keepers' when removing.
When assembling, now you can use the bar.

[Mart]

I have had some success using a tire iron down the inlet port to push the guide halves down to get the horseshoe clip out.

Use care and don't go mad and no damage should be done.

You're back to any of the other methods with the exhausts though. I have stripped some very old motors and not had to deliberately cut or damage a valve.

I agree that using the 8ba style valves and keepers is a much easier prospect.

Mart.

[JWL]

With the 59A style valves(mushroom stems) it will not be possible to remove the valves through the guides until the guides are out of the block. Avoiding damage to the valves and guides can be a serious challenge. Often the ends of the guides will break. Having been through the experiences on a few old engines makes the job only slightly easier. I often follow some of the suggested methods and go directly to destructive procedures.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by big job

My two cents, by now those long pry bars are useless they did work when the engine
probably was in its prime. Simply use a spring compressor remove keepers remove
springs, valves and bang the guide down with a 5/8 socket no damage what so ever.
Good practice to stick a magnet in the area of those little trolls 'keepers' when removing.
When assembling, now you can use the bar.

Not possible on a 59a

R

[SofaKing]

Van Pelt's rents the tools to take them apart, I wish I had known before taking two old stuck engines apart. I used a 3" cutoff wheel to cut the springs, pushed the valve up and cut-off the head, then drove the guide into the block.


http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...ls_forsale.htm

[big job]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Not possible on a 59a

R

Whops! I misread that. "I got EAB's in my head?
mostly what we work with..

[Prawbly]

Hi everybody - - thanks for all the input just what I needed. I ordered a complete valve rebuild set using 8ba valves and guides. Now I'll take my time and get the old guides out. I think I'll follow JSeery's advice and break the heads off and knock down the guides. This engine has so much sludge I can't see the keepers. That's what started this whole thing. I just wanted to do a cleanout, I think I'll name my ford ole' snowball. Thanks for all the help Good to hear from Ron.

[flatjack9]

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The exhaust valves are easy to break. The intakes will just bend.

[Bader]

Drill into the center of the valve head,the head will eventually come off,cut thru the spring and valve just below the guide and drive em down and out.

[Prawbly]

Hello everyone Thanks for all your input. t's a good feeling thanks. I ordered a complete valve set. I'm getting the 8ba valves, new guides and springs. Now I can take my time and get out the guides. I think I like JSeery's advice. Something about a torch in the valley, just doesn't sit with me. I'm sure it would work, but I guess I'm a little chicken ----. You know this whole project just started over cleaning out the sludge. I removed the intake and saw such a mess, I couldn't even see the lifters for the sludge. Everywhere there was this rust colored goop. I couldn't believe it. I don't know how the oil ever got back into the pan. It will be right when I'm done, thanks to all your help.

[Prawbly]

Just thought I would offer an update. I finally went ahead and broke 12 valves heads off and knocked the guides down and removed the keepers. Put some 50/50 on them and I'll let them set until Thurs. I'll be busy all day tomorrow. I still have 4 more valves to break and then I'll tackle the guides. Several of the guides were not stuck, which surprised me. Do they normally float around in the block ? Oh well everything worked out so far thanks to your input. Pat

[Prawbly]

Ron - - I remember my father putting castor oil in the gas tank of his race car. 39 Ford of course. He said it would help oil the upper end. Have you ever heard of that ? This was in the early 50's. I remember he built a lot of flatheads. He built one for Bonneville. It ran alcohol and had three carbs. That was my favorite. He had that one in his shop along with the car. A 32 or 33 five window. No fuel pump you had to pump it up yourself. Damn - the memories huh ?

[Pete]

"Several of the guides were not stuck, which surprised me. Do they normally float around in the block ?"

Assuming you are going to use one piece guides,
they should NOT be loose in the block. If they are it will be impossible to get 100% seating of the valve.
There are several options here. Since the valves are partially cooled by heat transfer through the stems, the best option is to have the new guide copper flash plated on the OD. This way they don't put so much copper on that you have to resize the OD. You can just press them in and go. Any excess copper will shear off when going in.
Another good way is to make a guide from bar stock with the right oversize OD.
The last option is completely Mickey Mouse and you will lose about half of the heat dissipation from guide to block.
Knurl the OD and press it in. Let the excess shear off.
Good luck with this method.

[Prawbly]

Well Hell. I ordered my valve set on the 31, and I got the thing today.
Not bad for me, usually I wait at least a week. I better get busy.

[Bored&Stroked]

I used to spend hours trying to get the originals out . . . only to throw the mushroom valves and split guides away. Last one I took apart had sat for 40 years - was a tough one (but a 32 block, so it was worth saving). I just used a big pair of bolt cutters - got the jaws into the valley, wedged into the springs and used about all my strength to bolt-cut the damn valve stems. Some of the valve tops/heads really went flying - almost broke my fluorescent lights! Had all the old junk out of there in less than a couple hours. I think I had to take a nap afterwards . . .

Usually I have to go caveman on the older/rusted engines - whatever it takes!

[Prawbly]

OL Ron you on here tonight ?

[Prawbly]

Up-date Well I decided to flush out the sludge so I can see the lifters and bottom keepers on this 59 ab. I'm using diesel, and it's working great. I don't now how oil could get back to the pan. I had to hunt for those return holes. I'm just about ready to drop the pan. I want to rinse everything out one final time. Drain the goop out of the pan, then get back to those damned guides. I have been soaking the guides in acetone and MMO. Hopefully that will help out. I'm not to the "caveman stage" yet, but I have surprised myself with my vocabulary. Well thanks for your support, I'll need it I'm sure I'll ------- need it.

[Prawbly]

HELLO FOLKS

I have just finished removing old valves and guides. I think anybody that goes through that, plus drilling out and tapping four broken studs should qualify as a "Barner". Whachathink. Man what a job. But now I want to finish cleaning the valley out and attack the mess in the oil pan.

I have a question about the guides. I have the chevy valves, and the new guides. My question is how tight should the fit be with the new guides in the block? It's probably a silly question, but I'm just trying to figure out how things work here. Does that top keeper hold everything in place or is the bore for the guides tapered on top ? Thanks

[JSeery]

The valve guide holes should not be tapered, if they are there is a ware issue. The clip holds the whole assembly in place.

[Prawbly]

jseery - Thanks that's what I thought. I can't wait to get it all cleaned up. It's amazing, the amount of sludge that builds up. Thanks again Pat

[Pete]

The guides should fit in the block with a light tap/press fit.
Metal to metal to .0005 press is ok for a street engine.
If they are loose, you can not get a true valve seat that will seal.

[Prawbly]

Thanks Pete. That raises a question for me. If it is a little loose how do I fix that ? Can a guy knurle the guide or use shims ?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Prawbly

Thanks Pete. That raises a question for me. If it is a little loose how do I fix that ? Can a guy knurle the guide or use shims ?

A fine knurl will work for a street engine.
Use some high temp loctite also.

[JonC]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Now I know this is going to sound harsh but,...... I have '38 24 stud that I was not going to reuse ANY of the valve train, and the guides were stuck pretty good. So I used a cutting torch and cut the valve springs and stems cleanly, pulled the valves out the top and using a drift, hammered the guides out into the valley area. I was done in little over an hour.

I did this exact thing, fastest way if your not concerned about saving parts.

[Bored&Stroked]

I recently decided to put a really fine knurl on the OD of the guides - tested it with an old one first. When they are pulled up into the block, the knurling is almost completely flattened down and the guide does get quite a bit more 'snug' in the bore. As Pete noted, this isn't the most scientific/best way to do things (especially for a competition engine where heat is more of an issue - I like his 'copper plating' method) - but seems to work fine so far.

Here is a link to a couple videos that I made:

Problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBXFMqHs-c

Little Knurling Solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqYqBIy1BAI

Note: I also use an o-ring on the intakes and I always use the correct exhaust guides on the exhaust side. The exhaust guides should NOT have the o-ring groove cut into them. I see a lot of companies selling 16 intake guides in their sets - I won't go this route. I want as much surface area as possible on the exhaust guide ODs (like Henry did) to take heat out of the exhaust valve and transfer it to the block.

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I recently decided to put a really fine knurl on the OD of the guides - tested it with an old one first. When they are pulled up into the block, the knurling is almost completely flattened down and the guide does get quite a bit more 'snug' in the bore. As Pete noted, this isn't the most scientific/best way to do things (especially for a competition engine where heat is more of an issue - I like his 'copper plating' method) - but seems to work fine so far.

Here is a link to a couple videos that I made:

Problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBXFMqHs-c

Little Knurling Solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqYqBIy1BAI

Note: I also use an o-ring on the intakes and I always use the correct exhaust guides on the exhaust side. The exhaust guides should NOT have the o-ring groove cut into them. I see a lot of companies selling 16 intake guides in their sets - I won't go this route. I want as much surface area as possible on the exhaust guide ODs (like Henry did) to take heat out of the exhaust valve and transfer it to the block.

Dale, Thank you for the video clips. I havn't run into this yet, but could on one of my other blocks. This is good to know. Bill