steering box mounting frame holes

[TomballMottershaw]

I have an A with 2 Tooth box,
the box moves... when you use the steering wheel.

I'm guessing the holes on the frame are "waller'ed'" out ( oval )

besides welding it up and re-drilling the holes in the frame,
is there a method to repair this that's simpler ?
like bushings around the bolt or special filler washer ?

I'm just trying to get this car so it can be in the 4th July parade...
I just got the engine out now, so I have some room work.

I'm thinking that this is not a good spot to use JB-Weld.

[SeaSlugs]

Might try to make a bushing the thickness of the frame rail then use a heavy washer on the outside under the nut. Might have to drill the frame rail holes more round to make a good bushing. Not as good as welding and redrilling but much easier.

Or might look into going the next size up im metric sizes and see if you can get a tighter bolt fit and really snug em up.

[Bill in NJ]

I had the same problem with mine. The nuts were not tight enough to frame. Took the cotters pins out and tightened the bolts and that solved it.. ( for me) Put new cotter pins back in.

[duke36]

Drill frame holes out to next round size and use lip or non lip bushings
(Acme Industrial), or steel (not plastic) bushing from big box or hardware stores with i.d.hole to fit steering box bolts. Cut it to fit frame rail thickness.

[TomballMottershaw]

for reference, attached are my over sized frame holes for the steering box.

[Bob Bidonde]

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If you use bushings, fabricate them from steel with a wall thickness of 0.13". The wall needs to be seamless. The ID should be a line fit to the steering mounting bolts. Open the holes in the frame using the a sector shaft housing as a hole locating tool. The bushings should be a light press fit into the frame.

[Marshall V. Daut]

You might try fitting the spacer bushings used in the original style front radius ball mounting kit. With a little rattail filing of the holes in the frame, you might be able to slip the spacers in so that the bolts will tighten up against the frame. The steering box bolts are the same 3/8" size as the longer, special wishbone mounting bolts. If the spacers fit inside the enlarged frame holes after some judicious rat tail filing, simply cut thinner wafers from the spacers and possibly Crazy Glue them in place so that they don't come out while assembling the steering box and bolts to the frame.
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

I was typing while Bob was posting. Similar thought process, though, just a different way of arriving at the same destination.
Marshall

[Brentwood Bob]

What I did was trace the pattern from the factory holes in the passenger/right frame. Weld up the driver side one hole at a time, use the pattern after transfer to plate steel. Bolt pattern in place. Drill a pilot hole and finish to final hole diameter. Now bolt plate to finished bolt hole after welding up the other hole and do other hole. And since it is now summer do the work outside under a big tree

[Jim Brierley]

I would just do as Bill in NJ did. You might also think about installing a late '31 style of brace at the top of the steering column. I think these are available from Snyders?

[denniskliesen]

I'd do the same as Brentwood Bob. When you get your pattern made, compare it to the steering box. Get a thick piece of copper and clamp it to the opposite side of the frame when welding. Grind your weld smooth and do the same procedure for the opposite side. Buy new bolts and nuts from Snyder's.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/s...x-mounting-set

The nuts go on the outside of the frame, not enough clearance on the gear box side for the nuts, unless the steering box is worn. Get them gooden tite and replace the anti rattler.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/s...n-anti-rattler

Make sure the clamp is drawn up all the way to the mount.

It would be a good idea to replace the pitman arm bolt also

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/pitman-arm-bolt

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

I would just do as Bill in NJ did. You might also think about installing a late '31 style of brace at the top of the steering column. I think these are available from Snyders?

Jim will the brace for the late model fit a 28-29? The one they show that I've seen is for 30-31.

[Kurt in NJ]

the holes are slotted some at the factory--this is to allow for slight differences in body positions at the upper mount

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

the holes are slotted some at the factory--this is to allow for slight differences in body positions at the upper mount

Yep, and I'd just make sure the mounting bolts are real tight.
Also make sure the pitman arm bolt is real tight.

[TomballMottershaw]

update, & resolved for now.
I agree the best solution is to weld the holes and re-drill, but this is not viable now.

I used the 12mm fine pitch thread bolts, with the nuts on the inside and a grade 8 lock washer under the head on the outside, I had to grind a bit off one nut's shoulder so it would fit next to the housing shaft.

I used an air impact driver to seat the nuts, as they had to driven into the sector shaft casting, the bolt head side lock washer will spread the load to a larger area of the frame. ( and the metric bolt head is large too )

not a "points" based solution, but it will keep the car pointed down the road.

next:
after testing, when the engine is back in I'll add some thread lock glue to keep them under full clamping power.

... how many metric threaded bolts on your A ?

thanks for the metric bolt suggestion!

regards
john.

[fredski53]

Aren't the hole enlongated from the factory? I thought this was due to the frame having different bodies and steering wheel angles.

[Jim Brierley]

Dennis, Not sure if the late brace will fit the 28-29, I kind of doubt it??? One could be made for them if you are a welder.

[Brentwood Bob]

Shorter Bolts would avoid interference with the pitman arm if the box decides to work loose.

[TomballMottershaw]

re: Bob B. --> I think when I do version #2 I'll cut the bolts shorter, I have them pointing inwards, so there is no change of interference.

[Bob C]

You need to fabricate a plate to use the 31 column support in a 28-29.

[Brentwood Bob]

Yes, the passenger side did not have slotted holes if I recall correctly.
Any looseness in the mounting would wallow out the holes in the frame.

[Mister Moose]

I have a 30 Tudor that has the same issue. Prior to disassembly, it looked like the sector housing bushings were totally shot. 1/8" movement visible in the sector shaft when steering. Turns out the bushings were only light medium wear, but the travel of the housing in the bolt holes was excessive. The upper hole is visibly elongated, the lower one less so.

Also, the bolts had crushed threads in the area where they passed through the frame, this effectively reduced their diameter and allowed even more play. The replacement bolts don't have a very long shank - the unthreaded portion. Same issue could develop.

So where to find a longer shank bolt that is preferably drilled for the castle nut? That's a tall order at your hardware store, but an off the shelf item for aircraft, they are a heavy consumer of safety wire and drilled bolts. Sure enough, an AN7-12 bolt is just what you want. They are easily ordered at Aircraft Spruce.

So here's 2 questions. For those of you that have undamaged holes in the frame, how much play was there when you inserted the sector housing bolts? The holes in my frame for the shock mounts are very tight on these bolts, but the steering sector holes have slight movement, say 1/64" on the fresh bolt shanks.

And if you had some slight movement as opposed to a tight fit when you assembled your steering, did a tight grip on those bolts eliminate all movement of the sector housing on the frame?

I'm thinking of adding a washer under the castle nut to spread the load and add to the grip.

[Mister Moose]

First photo, left to right

Original bolt from car, note the shank wear and crushed threads.
New bolt from Model A parts store.
New AN7-12 bolt, Cad plated. The bolt is a fat 1/8" longer, I don't expect that to be a problem.

Second photo. Standard replacement bolt against sector housing. Note how the shank is only long enough for the sector housing, not the frame.

Third photo. AN7-12 bolt, showing the longer shank that will bear on the frame and offer far better strength and durability.

[Brentwood Bob]

Shank of the aircraft bolt appears to be a little long. Let us know how it assembles.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

Shank of the aircraft bolt appears to be a little long. Let us know how it assembles.

I agree. Maybe check the NAS bolt dimensions - there may be one with a closer shank length that is needed than the AN bolts. I am not sure of the sector shaft flange thickness but the AN7-10 bolt has a 7/16"shank. (1/8" than shorter than the AN7-11)

John

[Mister Moose]

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You guys motivated me to do a test fit on just the sector housing, shaft, and pitman arm. With the AN7-12 bolt, I was surprised to see how little clearance there was. Torqued down it will likely bind or even hit hard. So back on the internet. Aircraft Spruce didn't have the AN7-11 bolt, (Which is why I got the next size up thinking it wouldn't matter) but Skybolt does.

Taking up the small excess length with washers on the head end is rife with problems too as there isn't enough shoulder space for even narrow washers to fit. If you grind a flat edge to fit you will play safe cracker x2 dialing all the flat edges to line up as you fiddle blind in the frame channel. Sigh. This is not a place where "Working on the Model A is easy".

[Brentwood Bob]

Tight space.

[Mister Moose]

OK, post assembly:

I finally got several AN7-11 bolts, for some reason several suppliers are out of them. They have the longer shank, and the total length is barely 1/16" longer than stock. I added a washer to spread the load. Even loose you could see this was a far better and tighter fit.

No interference on the pitman arm with that slightly longer length. In a perfect world I'd grind down that 1/16th, bevel and chase the threads.

Because there are currently no sector shafts in the pipeline I reassembled with the old sector which had some minor wear, on new needle bearings. Adjusted for shaft play and sector mesh.

When I started I had about 60 degrees of play, or about 9 inches at the rim. Luckily my wheels are really well balanced, as it still tracked quite well.

Post repair I have (sitting in the garage, haven't driven it yet, just snowed 3 inches here) about 1 1/4 inch of play. Huge improvement. So the plan is to drive it and see how it settles in, re-adjust as needed, and go from there.

[john charlton]

I know most of you will not agree with what I have to say but here goes anyway . The holes in the frame are not designed to suit different bodies the elongation is designed to accept very slight movement . I was taught in Mr de Beers garage in Camps Bay South Africa NEVER tighten the steering column hard up to the frame . Over rough roads the frame is very flexible and when it twists and the column is solidly bolted to the frame a lot of stress is transmitted to the column and gas tank bracket which can cause the column tube to crack and the gas tank to leak . I tighten up hard and then back off just a tad then insert the split pin . I do put a bit of copperslip between the box and frame . I have never yet have had to retighten the box bolts but I stay away from rough roads !!! The holes for the A400 ,de luxe phaeton etc are adjusted to suit the dropped column .

John in very windy rain as well Suffolk County England .

[Mister Moose]

Just drove it for the first time. I'd say the play is even better than I thought, it's under an inch. And this is on the old sector shaft and worm, with a new needle bearing sector housing, the above mentioned better housing to frame bolts, and a new pitman arm.

On the sector mesh adjustment, it's pretty darn good when centered, and there's just a smidge of resistance when turning wide. I'll take the trade-off, unless this is going to cause accelerated wear.

I'd say I had a few thousands pocketed/dimpled on the sector teeth, and just minimally noticeable like (.002) on one side of the sector shaft. While it would have been nice to get new parts, there's no telling when new sector shafts will be back available, and this looks like it's going to keep me driving for a good while on the old parts.

I'm trying out the Penrite no leak steering box lube. This stuff is slow to pour. Like crack a beer and come back tomorrow slow. It took several fills with a 1.5 oz threaded funnel I made up to fill the steering reservoir.

I put off this repair as I thought it would be a can of worms. Once I studied all the books I had and one DVD video (Diablo A's Rebuilding 2 Tooth Steering, highly recommended) the mystery of the steering gear was tackled and I felt like I knew how to both tear it down and adjust it once back together.

Oh, one more thing. If you know you're not replacing the worm, you can do all this without removing the entire steering gear from the car. I covered the pedals in a towel, put a mat over the seat brackets, and laid the wheel either on the seat or on the mat, depending on what I was doing. All I removed was the floorboards, and the starter. Then once it was off the frame, I slung the engine end of the gear with rope from the radiator to firewall rods. Even easier.

The car had 71,000 miles on the meter when I did the frame off restoration. What's the experts guess that that kind of small wear on the sector shaft being the original part?