Beware of new EP15 gasoline.

[AL in NY]

I believe in the last five years or so, 60 Minutes had a story on ethanol. And if I remember it correctly, they stated it took MORE energy to produce ethanol then the ethanol itself would ever produce. Think about the energy it takes to run the farm equipment used to raise corn and harvest it, the ethanol distillation process itself, the energy to produce the fertilizers used in the fields and finally the energy to transport the ethanol. IMHO, one big waste of time and money.

Sorry BlueSunoco, didn't read your post before posting mine.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Well, our local Ethanol plant went BELLY UP?????
Best way to prevent separation is to drive the car OFTEN! By the way, I've NEVER had a problem with Ethanol in ANY of my cars or power equipment, some loss of MILEAGE THOUGH! "Maybe" we have better Ethanol here???????
Bill W.

[Michael M]

Additional information and background can be found here:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/e15.asp

[Bob C]

I don't think you can count the energy and pollution from growing the corn for ethanol. If
they weren't growing it for ethanol they would be growing it for feed , human consumption
or they would be growing some other crop so you would still have the energy use and pollution.

Bob

[Joe K]

Snopes is generally a defender of the present political status quo. They carefully "cherry picked" the claims of the original article and answered those questions which support the EPA and their efforts to reduce pollution from burning fossil fuels.

Here's what I have learned of ethanol.
1. It's hygroscopic and will attract water from the air. When combined with water it settles to the bottom of your tank (oil floats on water) and the water can tend to rust out a gas tank or gas lines.
2. Mileage is reduced by the difference in "heat value" of the fuels. Wikipedia puts the heat value of pure ethanol at perhaps 51 percent that of gasoline - but we're burning a "blend" of course. It has been found that a 10 percent mix of ethanol will reduce mileage in cars not "flex fuel" by about 10 percent. Thus, ethanol does not "save" petroleum fuel stocks.
3. E10 or e15 IS more expensive than the same volume of fuel as gasoline.
4. Ethanol is touted as a "greenhouse neutral" fuel. It is NOT as petroleum is required to make it in the ratio of about 1 (petroleum) to 1.5 (ethanol) The heat value is about a wash - you gain no more energy by converting gasoline into ethanol in the growing process.
5. Ethanol DOES have advantage as a knock reducing agent - much as Tetraethyl Lead and MBTE did before it. Ethanol is much less polluting than either of these others though.
6. Ethanol does have advantage as an "oxygenator" which aid combustion - and reduces carbon monoxide emissions.
These last two are the primary attraction of ethanol to the EPA.
7. Ethanol does tend to oxidize (age) rubber and gasket parts in the fuel system. Modern polymers help in this regard but are not a total solution.

My son the college student made an interesting discovery of e10 ethanol fuel.

"Dad, you get worse mileage with e10 gas?"
"Yes"
"And e10 gas costs more than straight gas right?"
"This true"
"Do people realize they're burning the same amount of petroleum when they go on a trip - and paying more for it?"
"Um. I think Congress decided we should all pay more for a cleaner environment."
"I didn't see much wrong with the air the way it was before..."

Smart boy.

Joe K

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Well, our local Ethanol plant went BELLY UP?????
Best way to prevent separation is to drive the car OFTEN! By the way, I've NEVER had a problem with Ethanol in ANY of my cars or power equipment, some loss of MILEAGE THOUGH! "Maybe" we have better Ethanol here???????
Bill W.

Finally some good news about an ethanol plant.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Finally some good news about an ethanol plant.

If Chief were still with us, he could hep them convert it to a MOONSHINE PLANT & then we could all have HAPPY-STUPID faces & BAD HANGOVERS!!!! Bill W.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

I believe in the last five years or so, 60 Minutes had a story on ethanol. And if I remember it correctly, they stated it took MORE energy to produce ethanol then the ethanol itself would ever produce. Think about the energy it takes to run the farm equipment used to raise corn and harvest it, the ethanol distillation process itself, the energy to produce the fertilizers used in the fields and finally the energy to transport the ethanol. IMHO, one big waste of time and money.

Sorry BlueSunoco, didn't read your post before posting mine.

Same thing with LED light bulbs, and what about the mercury in the compact flash bulbs.

You rarely get something for nothing.

[BlueSunoco]

Mike is correct, the old rule of Unintended Consequences.

There is always a trade off somewhere any engineer will tell you that! Everything in balance.

[Terry,NJ]

Unfortunately, We'd better start "Converting" our A s now and avoid the later rush. Just as E-10 virtually phased out "Real" Gasoline, eventually, E-15 will become the norm no matter how much opposition we give it. Brazil has had it for years. Next, what is necessary to make a car resistant? Lots of Stainless steel? better coatings for our gas tanks? New materials for gaskets? E-15 is going to be a fact of life, we'd better be ready for it.
Terry

[Terry,NJ]

We, who had the priviledge of growing up in the fifties and earlier, remember what real pollution was. And it could be bad sometimes! However, we have the prospective and the ability to compare then vs now. You son shows the ability to resist the propaganda and see that the emperor has no clothes on. Too bad more aren't like him!
Terry

Originally Posted by Joe K

Snopes

My son the college student made an interesting discovery of e10 ethanol fuel.

"Dad, you get worse mileage with e10 gas?"
"Yes"
"And e10 gas costs more than straight gas right?"
"This true"
"Do people realize they're burning the same amount of petroleum when they go on a trip - and paying more for it?"
"Um. I think Congress decided we should all pay more for a cleaner environment."
"I didn't see much wrong with the air the way it was before..."

Smart boy.

Joe K

[TDO]

All the additives they sell that you add to your fuel, that's suppose to take care of the ethanol in your fuel. I know that sta-bal sells one. How does this stuff work? Or does it?

[silversink]

Originally Posted by TDO

All the additives they sell that you add to your fuel, that's suppose to take care of the ethanol in your fuel. I know that sta-bal sells one. How does this stuff work? Or does it?

As far as I'm concerned all they do is empty your wallet. I've used the Stabil one and the Sea Foam and didn't notice any difference in millage or performance.

[tombia]

Originally Posted by Terry,NJ

We, who had the priviledge of growing up in the fifties and earlier, remember what real pollution was. And it could be bad sometimes! However, we have the prospective and the ability to compare then vs now. You son shows the ability to resist the propaganda and see that the emperor has no clothes on. Too bad more aren't like him!
Terry

The whole idea of using ethanol is to reduce the amount of imported oil we use, ethanol blend costs a dime(10 cents) less here than regular. I have used it for over 30 years including my Model T, my 97 Ranger has 210,000 miles on it and never a problem. My question is if you know it could cause problems with some rubber or other synthiec materials, why do you use it then complain?. It seems people only read what the want in an article, forgetting that whoever wrote it in the first place was trying to make their viewpoint known, just like me.

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by tombia

The whole idea of using ethanol is to reduce the amount of imported oil we use, ethanol blend costs a dime(10 cents) less here than regular. I have used it for over 30 years including my Model T, my 97 Ranger has 210,000 miles on it and never a problem. My question is if you know it could cause problems with some rubber or other synthiec materials, why do you use it then complain?. It seems people only read what the want in an article, forgetting that whoever wrote it in the first place was trying to make their viewpoint known, just like me.

The 'reason' Ethanol costs less at the pump, is because of the HUGE Federal SUBSIDY Money. If the Fed didn't pay the difference, Ethanol would cost a lot more than regular gasoline. If that stuff had to stand on it's own, w/o the taxpayer footing the bill, it would collapse in a heartbeat.

Then how many people would pay the extra? None. People go for the cheap. If you burn straight gasoline, you get better gas mileage to off set the difference at the pump. Do your math. Numbers don't lie.

[George D]

The boys at our locale motorcycle shop are really into motocross and therefore really into fuel. When they race there is some method they use to test the gas to be sure of the octane level inadvertently they also learn the ethanol percentage. They report that the ethanol percentage is all over the charts using standard e10. Some samples as low as 5 percent others as high as 20 percent. I'm not sure how they test it but it could explain why some people report corrosion problems and others don't.
Has anyone else heard of this?

[tombia]

Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

The 'reason' Ethanol costs less at the pump, is because of the HUGE Federal SUBSIDY Money. If the Fed didn't pay the difference, Ethanol would cost a lot more than regular gasoline. If that stuff had to stand on it's own, w/o the taxpayer footing the bill, it would collapse in a heartbeat.

Then how many people would pay the extra? None. People go for the cheap. If you burn straight gasoline, you get better gas mileage to off set the difference at the pump. Do your math. Numbers don't lie.

Wont argue with you on the cost factor, but several fellows on here have said it cost them more, federal or state subsidy? Who knows. I chose to use it to help with cutting our dependents on imported oil. My point was that if you don,t like it ,don,t use it. and then complain when something goe,s bad. and I have had no problem in 30 plus years. I don,t put it anything that it will harm.

[Joe K]

I don,t put it anything that it will harm.

Yer fortunate. In Cow Hampshire, we have not a choice. Straight gasoline is NOT available.

Heh. When I worked in Florida last year I was surprised to find gas stations advertising "Regular Gas - no ethanol." I also noticed it ran 25 cents more a gallon (as you said.)

I think the price differential is the result of the vagaries of the marketplace. EVERYWHERE you look on the internet people are reporting reduced mileage from e10. Perhaps the mileage premium is the buyer's justification to put non-e10 in their vehicle? And the seller's justification to increase the price?

The marketplace does have a way of evening everything out. High Test gasoline costs more than regular because the oxygenating ingredients make the combustion efficiency higher resulting in slightly better mileage - and the product is priced to the fractional mile per gallon proportion.

E10 really raised heck with my John Deere 110. The Viton tipped carburetor float needle kept sticking to the valve seat. A little ATF in the gas seems to have solved it? Well except for the first start after the winter when I have to give the carburetor a stout tap with a hammer handle.

Joe K