16" Tire Questions

[Napa Skip]

16” Tires: I have a set of 16” (1934 Ford?) rims obtained from a fellow club member and am ready to obtain tires (the set of 19” wheels will be retained for ‘show’). I am interested in other forum members’ comments about:

(1) Type of 16” tires (bias ply or radial)?
(2) Size?
(3) Source?

For example, the other members of our club that run 16” tires are generally using P215/70R16 Uniroyal radials. However, Coker Tire shows bias ply sizes from 450/475-16 to 750-16 (10 sizes) and radial sizes from 205/55R16 to 295/50R16 (9 sizes). I did a quick search of this forum for threads on 16” tires but did not see anything definitive; one thread on the Early V-8 forum (“Firestones, Coker Radials or Excelsior Radials”) seemed to confirm a preference for radial tires, but I wanted to get some direct Model A owner recommendations.

Any other comments, both pro and con about 16” wheels/tires would be appreciated. When last checked a few months ago, the steering geometry on my 1930 coupe was good at 5 deg (more or less) caster, +3-1/2 deg (each side) camber and about +1/16” toe-in. I have a stock 2-tooth steering sector with a standard-length pitman arm, 34-year old reproduction lever-arm hydraulic shocks in good condition, and mechanical brakes. I have gotten good service (even wear, no cupping, cracks or checks) out of the 4.75/5.00/5.25/5.50-19 Bedford 4-ply nylon tires I have had for many (too many, probably) years.

16” Wheel Hub Caps: I am also interested in any recommendation as to the best source for high-quality hub caps for the 16” wheels (I’m currently leaning toward the Snyder B-1130 stainless steel hub caps but at around $100 for a set of 5 (+ tax/shipping/handling) if there is a better/more durable product out there, I’d like to hear about it.

Camber: And, as regards the camber, are there any comments about a smaller camber? Steve Smith, in his ”Proper Front-End Alignment Using Modern Day Tires” in the March/April 2004 Model “A” News, recommended +/- 0.5 deg camber. But I’m reluctant, for obvious reasons, to subject an otherwise (apparently) good front axle to “tweaking” unless absolutely warranted.

Sorry for the long post.

[Jim Brierley]

If your wheel are Ford, they are from a 1935. Kelsey-Hayes made a lot of aftermarket wheels and most think they are nicer looking than the Ford wheels. Ford wheels will easily accept tubeless tires, Kelsey-Hayes need to be sealed as the spokes pass thru the rims. Radials give a much better ride and are not affected by grooves in the pavement. Other than that buy the look that you like. The 215/70R16's are for the Toyota RAV-4, tires for them are made by several mfg's. Caster & camber should remain as stock.

[pooch]

Jim, is that the only way to tell ford from KH?

By the spokes being different through the rim?

Does anyone have pics of each?

[Purdy Swoft]

700X16 tires will be about the same height as the original 19 inch tires. For instance, if you use 600X16 tires the height will be less than original. Tires with less height than original will have the same effect as lowering the gear ratio. You will have a bit more low end power but the car won't run as fast and will get less MPG. It is usually preferable to run a smaller tire on the front for easier steering .. I don't have the numbers for radial tires.

[Bruce]

The Kelsey Hayes wheels are sometimes called "double cross" wheels because each spoke crosses two others. Here are two pics of the K-H wheels and one of a Ford wheel.

[Louis]

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Here's a pic. of my coupe, it has 35 ford 16" wheel's and coker 6.00x16 tires, tube type, they ride a lot better then the 19" firestones, and like Swoft says are close to the same size as the 19", some say that it will be harder to steer at slow speed's, But I can't tell the diff, [and im an old dude].
I think I paid $97 for 5 hub caps from Mikes, They look and fit great.
I would not go back to the 19".

[Charlie Stephens]

Remember if you have fender wells you will probably have to let the air out of the spare and carry a pump.

Charlie Stephens

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by Bruce

The Kelsey Hayes wheels are sometimes called "double cross" wheels because each spoke crosses two others.

I have also heard them referred to "Bent Spoke" wheels...

[Vic in E-TN]

I am looking forward to new 16 inch rims with 19 inch centers becoming available in my lifetime. I have spent the last few years looking for these at swaps. I found 2 sets of 16 inch rims with 21 inch centers. One of these had the spokes welded by a monkey and then powder coated. The other set was not as bad. I spent 2 days cleaning them up before I gave up. They are not yet powder coated.

My problem is that all of what is available now is too narrow for the tires available. Now I don't have the money for what I want since I bought 2 sets of shocks from Bill Stipe.

Vic

[midgetracer]

Bent spoke wheels come in at least two designs. The Kelsey Hayes version that has double cross spokes and the Motor Wheel corp wheel that has single cross spokes. Both have more spokes than the straight(non bent) spoke design by Ford. The Kelseys have more spokes than the Motor wheels, but the Motor wheels have more than the Ford ones. If anyone is interested, I will get spoke counts on all three types.

[ctlikon0712]

How about pics to determin the different looks of the Motor Wheel Corp's verses the other we have here? Thanks midgetracer

[Louis]

I think the 35 ford wheel, 16" has 32 spokes.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

check this bias one out:
http://www.cokertire.com/brands/exce...or-comp-v.html

then this radial
http://www.cokertire.com/650r16-exce...rt-radial.html

[midgetracer]

Her is the only picture of a motor wheel that I had handy. Notice the bent spoke and the single cross of the spokes. I hope this is clear enough. I can take a better picture tomorrow.

[ctlikon0712]

Thanks, neat car too!

[sturgis 39]

You can get the hub caps with the v/8 logo or without. I would go without if you are running a four cylinder. The bias and radial discussions will go on forever. Coker tire has a warning on the back of their catalog about using radial tires on old rims. This comment alone should bring several comments. I like bias tires and they actually ride and handle better on my Model "A" than radials. I have tried both types. Good luck with this soon to be lengthy thread.

[midgetracer]

Here are pictures of the three types of 16 inch wheels as well as a picture of a model a 19 inch Motor wheel. Ford wheels have 32 spokes, Motor wheels have 36 spokes and Kelsey Hayes have 40 spokes. I guess some of us like red wheels!!!!

[Peter J]

I've got a set of 16" in the attic but I'll be darned if I'm going to spend the money for a set of new ones until I see how they look and ride. Good used sets almost impossible to find.

[Jim Brierley]

Wow, I think all questions have been answered, in spades!

[Napa Skip]

Thank you to all who answered this thread and provided comments concerning tire type and size, hubcap recommendations and/or steering geometry remarks. For what it's worth, the 7 wheels I have are of two different spoke designs, as shown in the photo below: 5 of what I presume (from some of the posted replies) are 1935 Ford wheels with 32 spokes (the red-primer wheel on the left) and 2 with 40 (non-bent) spokes (the gray-primer wheel on the right). With the exception of a lip on the inner edge of the center hub (where the wheel contacts the brake drum) which appears on the 5 32-spoke wheels only (the 2 40-spoke wheels have an unlipped center hub inner edge similar to the standard 19-inch rims) all other dimensions (17-1/2" OD with a 5-1/8" width at the rim edge) and construction appear similar. Thanks again for the responses.

16-inch wheels.jpg

[sturgis 39]

Napa

You probably know, but to run early spoke wheels on later hydraulic drums you need a spacer so the lug bolts do not support the wheels. The spacers are available at most model "A" stores and probably not NAPA. I do not know if you are running hydraulic brakes. Just thought I would throw that in.

The 33 and 34 Fords had 17" wheels and I think the 32 had 18" wheels with the lugs nuts inside.

There are a lot more experts on these wheels than me.

[400A-64]

I have used the "Bent Spoke Kelseys" with The "Rav 4" Radials that Jim Brierley spoke of. I ran a bead of contractors silicone in side the rim on the spoke ends and spread it all over the spoke ends with a chip brush. Then I had the radial tires mounted and the bead sealed.They give a great ride and add to better braking. Bad roads are somewhat forgiven with the Radials.
Bruce Davis [email protected]

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

I am looking forward to new 16 inch rims with 19 inch centers becoming available in my lifetime...

Are these the ones I keep hearing that Snyders is working on???

[Vic in E-TN]

Two years ago I was speaking with Trey (Don Snyder III) at Hershey and asked him if he would be interested in making these (19-16's) in addition to the 19 and 21 inch versions. He said that there probably was not enough market but I could do it if I wanted to. Not enough money and storage for a container load of rims.

At our AACA meeting in December Corky Coker had a smile when I asked him about rim width and his radial tires. H understood the problem and said maybe an answer was coming in the future.

Vic

[johnsor]

I am running 35 Ford spoke wheels with 6:50 x 16 tires. The 6:50's are the same O.D. As the 19" tires, thus gear ratio/speed is the same. Also, a much smoother ride. No fit problems at all. Bought new "Ford" caps from Mikes. I saved my former 19" wheels and tires in case I ever wanted to switch back.

[Peter J]

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johnsor, aren't those 650's too heavy? I have a pair that I won't put on because they're 6pr and huge. I think I'll hold out for 600's

[lindy williams]

I bought my hubcaps from Bob Drake. top quality in my opinion.

[MurphyJ]

I purchased a set of 4 600X16 Bias Firestones, same as what Coker supplys, from Performance Plus Tire and Auto in Long Beach California and saved a bit on the tire cost and shipping cost as I live in the Northwest. Might want to check them out. www.performanceplustire.com.
Shop around for caps as they do differ in price for the same product.

[Peter J]

Thanks Murphy. Shipping costs per tire is almost 1/2 the original price.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Peter J

johnsor, aren't those 650's too heavy? I have a pair that I won't put on because they're 6pr and huge. I think I'll hold out for 600's

Peter,
In high school, I ran 6.50 x 16 -6 ply on the rear. The larger size looked more business like & substantial to me. I lowered the air pressure to get a better ride and I couldn't seem to ever wear those dudes out. Bill W.

[Purdy Swoft]

Here is one with 700X16 on the back and 600X16 on the front. Purdy Swoft loading horse pills for fertilizer. The big back tires, other than looking cool, will make it run faster!!!!!!! A friend gave me the 700 mud grip rear tires back in 1979, They are still on it and will probably never wear out. It probably wouldn't pass judgeing standards but we don't worry MUCH about that!!!!

[kp]

PURDY SWIFT :I like that truck. Wish I had one just like it, horse crap and all!!

[Purdy Swoft]

Thanks kp. I've had the old strip down since 1967. I got it out of a junk yard. It was sitting on the ground with no wheels or radiator. I paid thirty dollars for it, that was more than it would have brought for scrap iron at the time. The old guy that had it wanted thirty five dollars for it but I said that I only had thirty. The old guy was a real piece of work and had a turd in every pocket for somebody. He figured it was useless and just said, I recon so, just take the damn thing on. One of his boys had wrung off a head stud in the block and to make it worse broke off a drill bit trying to drill out the stud. I took a set of wheels with me and pulled it home ,on the back roads with a chain.

The dried horse pills are good organic fertilizer and doesn't burn plants like too much commercial fertilizer will. We got rid of the horses and the pills are long gone.

[Bick in New Zealand]

These are 16 inch Firestone Air Balloon Wheels that I am running on my coupe. The tyres are Bridgestone Dueller HTS 215/70 R16. This combination has worked really well for me, looks great the only downside is the spokes are a pain in the A to clean.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

I am using 215/70 R16 on my 35 Fordor and they are about the same diameter as the original 600-16 tires. The 215 is about the right width but the middle number is the key as to whether the tire looks right on the car. I wouldn't go under "70" or it will look too small in diameter.

[Peter J]

Bick,
That does look pretty good. I assume you went tubeless? I would imagine with my B engine, I could keep up with the A's and the taller tires. The diameter will mean a little higher engine speed.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Hi Peter J.

I am running tubes as the spokes go through the rim. You will be pleasantly surpised at the better handling characteristics of the smaller / wider rims.

[flattie1929]

Hi guys, i'm running 16" ford spoke wheels with 600x16. Is it possible
to use 700x16 on this rim. Someone told me that the rim should be
4.50 to 5.00 width to use 700x16. If i'm right the Ford rim has 4.00 width.
Is there any problem..?
Thanks in advance and greetings from germany Frank

[Duffy1]

I have the 16 " ford wheels and 215/700 cooper tires ( discout tire ) and they rub the rear fender wells when two people are in the back seat ( 31 S/W ) and you go around a corner . I put a sway bar ( pander bar ) in the rear but have not tested it yet .I looks as though you have a coupe so you might not have this problem . I was also told that my rear spring could be weak causing the problem. If anyone else out there has the same problem I would appeciate your remedy .
Thanks

[Charlie Stephens]

Ford used the same diamenter hub caps from 1932 to 1935. Check out the various styles in a catalog like Bob Drakes http://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2.aspx?Id=hubbeautrin. My preference is for the 1932 style caps with the script instead of the V8. I would invest in a set of Keysey's. They are more expensive but by the time you add up everything else they are a smaller part of the cost.

Charlie Stephens

[Napa Skip]

Thanks again to everyone who replied and for all the useful information.

[dumb person]

Hello, may i ask if the only year wheels that will fit a model A are 1935? Are the other ones too tight over the hub or something?

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by dumb person

Hello, may i ask if the only year wheels that will fit a model A are 1935? Are the other ones too tight over the hub or something?

The 1928 (except AR) through 1935 Ford wire wheels all interchange. The sizes were:
'28-'29 21 inch
'30-'31 19 inch
'32 18 inch
'33-'34 17 inch
'35 16 inch
'35-'39 the wheels remained 16 inch with a 5 on 10 1/4 bolt pattern
'40-'48 were 16 with the Model A 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern but required inexpensive spacers to run on stock Model A drums

Charlie Stephens

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The 1928 (except AR) through 1935 Ford wire wheels all interchange. The sizes were:
'28-'29 21 inch
'30-'31 19 inch
'32 18 inch
'33-'34 17 inch
'35 16 inch
'35-'39 the wheels remained 16 inch with a 5 on 10 1/4 bolt pattern
'40-'48 were 16 with the Model A 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern but required inexpensive spacers to run on stock Model A drums

Charlie Stephens

Thanks, but why are the '35 wheels the preferred choice? Is it the sizing?

[1931 flamingo]

They are wire, tires are readily avail and possibly cheaper than the 19 and 21 inch. They also lower the car a bit. Visually more appealing. To each his own. JMO
Paul in CT

[Peter J]

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I finally installed my 16's on with 600-16 bias. Painted the rims black until I descide on what color to paint the car. Rides nice but takes some getting use to after the 21's. Doesn't look quite like a clown car now. Checked spedo with a gps and it seems pretty close.

[dumb person]

If they were 17 inch '33-'34 would they be ok? Or is that not the done thing for some reason?

[Vic in E-TN]

I have not looked recently but 17 in bias tires were significantly more expensive than 16 in bias tires. The new 17 in radials are way too wide for the rim width.
Vic

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

I have not looked recently but 17 in bias tires were significantly more expensive than 16 in bias tires. The new 17 in radials are way too wide for the rim width.
Vic

Oh, that reduces the attractiveness of the cheap wheels i was offered then.

[Fred A]

Originally Posted by dumb person

Thanks, but why are the '35 wheels the preferred choice? Is it the sizing?

It is about tires! In the second half of the '30s 16"s were the dominant tire size, and through the war, 16' was way more available with the rationing. After becoming the adopted standard tire for earlier cars, the near tradition lasted into the '60s to where most people expected wire '16s on As. Then there was a slow return to original size tires and wheels. The V8 cars were slower to return to original because the '35 Ford wheels looked so much like the earlier V8 era wheels. Now there is a renewed acceptance of the 18" and 17" wheels because, along with tire availability, they are somewhat taller while the trend in newer cars is to larger diameters. Good Luck: Fred A

[quickchange]

We have been running 205 -80 radials, these give a slight step up over stock & look much better than 70,s , fill the fender gap better, If running overdrive run the 70 series,

[ejgloss]

What color paint is the yellow/cream shown in pics on this thread a few of your 16" wire wheels?

[1931 flamingo]

Most likely Tacoma crème...................
Paul in CT

[jkeesey]

I just installed a set of Kelsey Hayes wheels on my A. I bought them sight unseen from a buddy of mine for $200. He told me they were apple green so i was expecting the neon green like used on most As, nope they are a very dark dark green so it looks like when i get my new tires i will be painting them either red or red and white. But on a nice note the wheels are perfect and I got a full set of 5 and im still running on the 40 year old tires!

[Gold Digger]

When I was growing up my dad had a 4-wheel farm wagon made out of a model a running gear. All 4 wheels were 16" but one was different. It was a solid steel with spokes in front and I think had a V-8 hub cap on it. I've often since wondered what that wheel cam off of.