The Ford Barn

Ed in Maine · 04-15-2020, 09:45 AM

I have been installing a new head gasket. Yesterday, I torqued the head to 55 ft-lbs. and ran the car for 10 minutes. Everything seemed fine. This morning with the car cold, I retorqued everything, started the car and within 5 minutes the upper water outlet casting had cracked. I have the following questions:
1. The gasket was a hard paper gasket. What should I be using for a gasket? Maybe no gasket at all but with a sealer.
2. Can I get away with removing the outlet casting without taking the torque off the other studs? I did drain the water but I haven't touched the car since the failure.
Thank you for your help, Ed

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 04-15-2020, 09:50 AM

Hi Ed, the issue is either the surfaces on the Head and/or the Outlet are not level. The paper gasket should have been fine. There is an old trick of using a paper match on each end just under the edge to concentrate the pressure of the mating surfaces towards the center. Then tear-off the exposed portion of the match. Again, if both surfaces are flat, this trick is not necessary.

Yes, the remaining head nuts can remain torqued and just replace the outlet.

Sunnybrook Farm · 04-15-2020, 10:25 AM

Where did it crack? Most I have seen crack on the passenger side from the hole back toward the distributor. I have one that was brazed and seemed to hold but of course was ugly. Was the casting easy to get on over the studs? one of the studs could be slightly bent which would put outward pressure on the casting. Of course it could have had a crack from decades ago in it and the torquing was the last straw.

Russ/40 · 04-15-2020, 10:32 AM

This is a rare case for me, to disagree with Brent. No way should a paper gasket ever be used for the water outlet, nor should it be considered ok or proper. Even with perfect flat matching surfaces, it's doomed to fail. The thought it's ok to use paper match sticks to prevent failure is, well, silly.
I first learned my lesson when mine broke an ear off a week after assembly. The cardboard gasket gets saturated and squishes out at the ears were the gasket yields and causes uneven tension causing failure. The paper match is supposed to counter the failure of the gasket, but knowing what you now know, it it worth the risk to use the paper match idea? Best approach is to use the copper gasket or no gasket, just a skim coat of RTV.

30 Closed Cab PU · 04-15-2020, 10:42 AM

I've heard club members talk about this, some say make sure the mating surfaces are flat and when press down on to check to make sure the outlet does not rock, and only torque to 40-45 lbs.

40 -45 llbs? Is that OK?

Jacksonlll · 04-15-2020, 10:57 AM

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It is very common to break those ears. Just us a skim of RTV and only go to 45 ft#.

Purdy Swoft · 04-15-2020, 11:25 AM

I didn't use a gasket on the last two water outlets that I installed and no cracks occurred . Larry Brumfield recommended this on the last head that I installed and it worked well . Before that I used the copper clad gaskets and every now and then I would break a water outlet .

Ed in Maine · 04-15-2020, 11:33 AM

Thank you for your comments. The ear on the passenger side is is cracked, inside the stud, front to back toward the distributer. I do think a skim of RTV is the best. I can see that the paper gasket has squished outside of the casting probably leaving not much gasket under the casting ear! Snyders does have a fact sheet with the replacement outlet casting that recommends using a paper match under the casting to prevent breakage. Thank you for all your good comments. It is comforting to know that I am not the only one who has destroyed a good Model A part. Ed

Ray in La Mesa · 04-15-2020, 12:30 PM

RTV is Ok but I prefer to use ULTRA BLACK sealer. it has more body & sticking power.

Ak Sourdough · 04-15-2020, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray in La Mesa

RTV is Ok but I prefer to use ULTRA BLACK sealer. it has more body & sticking power.

Ultra black has amazing holding power. I used it on a modern differential cover and it was really a chore to get the cover off when the time came. Should work well for this job.

Ernie Vitucci · 04-15-2020, 05:23 PM

Hi agree with Russ/40. In Arizona we tend to put the water outlet on the belt sander and make sure it is flat. Then we mount it with black RTV...light coat and torque to 55 pounds if stock and 62 pounds if slightly higher compression...On older rebuilds, we often see water outlets that have had their ears re-attached in all sorts of ways. Ernie in Arizona.

Russ...In the late 40's and early 50's I grew up in Fletcher Hills...not too far from you.

04-15-2020, 09:45 AM	#1
Ed in Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cty., ME or Flagler Cty., FL Posts: 1,106	Water Outlet Casting Cracked I have been installing a new head gasket. Yesterday, I torqued the head to 55 ft-lbs. and ran the car for 10 minutes. Everything seemed fine. This morning with the car cold, I retorqued everything, started the car and within 5 minutes the upper water outlet casting had cracked. I have the following questions: 1. The gasket was a hard paper gasket. What should I be using for a gasket? Maybe no gasket at all but with a sealer. 2. Can I get away with removing the outlet casting without taking the torque off the other studs? I did drain the water but I haven't touched the car since the failure. Thank you for your help, Ed

04-15-2020, 09:50 AM	#2
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,508	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked Hi Ed, the issue is either the surfaces on the Head and/or the Outlet are not level. The paper gasket should have been fine. There is an old trick of using a paper match on each end just under the edge to concentrate the pressure of the mating surfaces towards the center. Then tear-off the exposed portion of the match. Again, if both surfaces are flat, this trick is not necessary. Yes, the remaining head nuts can remain torqued and just replace the outlet. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

04-15-2020, 10:25 AM	#3
Sunnybrook Farm Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 409	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked Where did it crack? Most I have seen crack on the passenger side from the hole back toward the distributor. I have one that was brazed and seemed to hold but of course was ugly. Was the casting easy to get on over the studs? one of the studs could be slightly bent which would put outward pressure on the casting. Of course it could have had a crack from decades ago in it and the torquing was the last straw.

04-15-2020, 10:32 AM	#4
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked This is a rare case for me, to disagree with Brent. No way should a paper gasket ever be used for the water outlet, nor should it be considered ok or proper. Even with perfect flat matching surfaces, it's doomed to fail. The thought it's ok to use paper match sticks to prevent failure is, well, silly. I first learned my lesson when mine broke an ear off a week after assembly. The cardboard gasket gets saturated and squishes out at the ears were the gasket yields and causes uneven tension causing failure. The paper match is supposed to counter the failure of the gasket, but knowing what you now know, it it worth the risk to use the paper match idea? Best approach is to use the copper gasket or no gasket, just a skim coat of RTV.

04-15-2020, 10:42 AM	#5
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked I've heard club members talk about this, some say make sure the mating surfaces are flat and when press down on to check to make sure the outlet does not rock, and only torque to 40-45 lbs. 40 -45 llbs? Is that OK?

04-15-2020, 10:57 AM	#6
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It is very common to break those ears. Just us a skim of RTV and only go to 45 ft#.

04-15-2020, 11:25 AM	#7
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked I didn't use a gasket on the last two water outlets that I installed and no cracks occurred . Larry Brumfield recommended this on the last head that I installed and it worked well . Before that I used the copper clad gaskets and every now and then I would break a water outlet .

04-15-2020, 11:33 AM	#8
Ed in Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cty., ME or Flagler Cty., FL Posts: 1,106	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked Thank you for your comments. The ear on the passenger side is is cracked, inside the stud, front to back toward the distributer. I do think a skim of RTV is the best. I can see that the paper gasket has squished outside of the casting probably leaving not much gasket under the casting ear! Snyders does have a fact sheet with the replacement outlet casting that recommends using a paper match under the casting to prevent breakage. Thank you for all your good comments. It is comforting to know that I am not the only one who has destroyed a good Model A part. Ed

04-15-2020, 12:30 PM	#9
Ray in La Mesa Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: La Mesa Ca Posts: 1,166	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked RTV is Ok but I prefer to use ULTRA BLACK sealer. it has more body & sticking power.

04-15-2020, 05:23 PM	#11
Ernie Vitucci Senior Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 611	Re: Water Outlet Casting Cracked Hi agree with Russ/40. In Arizona we tend to put the water outlet on the belt sander and make sure it is flat. Then we mount it with black RTV...light coat and torque to 55 pounds if stock and 62 pounds if slightly higher compression...On older rebuilds, we often see water outlets that have had their ears re-attached in all sorts of ways. Ernie in Arizona. Russ...In the late 40's and early 50's I grew up in Fletcher Hills...not too far from you.