Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2020, 05:56 PM   #1
Young Blood
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 11
Default Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Hey guys, I've been making videos documenting my process working through my 1931 Ford Model A engine. In this one, I break down the camshaft.

Let me know what you think!


https://youtu.be/dScpz6dvEQA
Young Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 06:08 AM   #2
Young Blood
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 11
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

btt
Young Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-01-2020, 07:10 AM   #3
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Blood View Post
Hey guys, I've been making videos documenting my process working through my 1931 Ford Model A engine. In this one, I break down the camshaft.

Let me know what you think!


https://youtu.be/dScpz6dvEQA
I watched it last night but honestly chose not to respond. Since you felt compelled to bring it back up, I will try to be as kind as possible. My first turn-off was when I read your opening title about tearing sh** up. While I realize that word is common in a younger generation, in many of your viewers minds, it is considered an offensive term. In other words, if you typically would not use that word in front of your preacher during church, then it is likely considered offensive by some.

Next, you showed a camshaft and then used someone else’s text to describe your own camshaft. You mentioned pitting but did not discuss the hardening process nor did you show how to use a micrometer to verify lobe wear. At that point you should have given the specifications so your viewers could compare their own.

I might also add that I briefly watched your video on how to remove a oil pump. Your information on removing the valve cover and then the lower distributer shaft before removing the oil pump had me shaking my head. I did not want to leave a thumbs-down or a critical comment on your videos, so I just closed the videos and the channel.

If you want my opinion, turn your channel into a ‘follow along’ channel instead of a ‘how to’ channel. Experience should be the prerequisite for any ‘how to’ segment. If the content provider has not had several past personal experiences to pull from prior to instructing others, the likelihood that they will be spreading false information in almost inevitable. We all know that is out of control on the Model-A social media pages. Again, while I applaud you for your efforts in being a content provider, my suggestions are to forget about your channel being a how-to place and more of a follow-along channel. Otherwise, find you several knowledgeable advisors who have the credentials to be knowledgeable advisors.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 07:14 AM   #4
kenparker0703
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 48
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Thanks, Brent. My thoughts exactly. ken
kenparker0703 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 08:59 AM   #5
McMimmcs
Senior Member
 
McMimmcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,015
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I concur with the other two. I was not impressed.
McMimmcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 09:28 AM   #6
mike657894
Senior Member
 
mike657894's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay City Michigan
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Listen to the experts. 4 out of 5 doctors smoke camels. Thats why I do.

At a glance that cam is fine, run it.(very nice points). To make a cheap valve tool grind a open end of a half inch wrench to make a wedge shape. weld that wrench to another wrench. then hand that gig off of a manifold stud. Watch out I lost some finger tip skin when it slipped. You can always buy one if your not a cheapskate.


Before trying to get better stuff for your engine. Get it running tip top first. Its a journey. I have been experiencing ups and downs with performance. all stock other than a b cam because its a late crate(1941) and hats how they were sent.


at 4:23 in the video i notice a metal baffle? in the skirt of the piston. any one see those before? is it to help cyl oiling? https://youtu.be/dScpz6dvEQA?t=263

Last edited by mike657894; 12-01-2020 at 09:38 AM.
mike657894 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 09:35 AM   #7
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

First off, all of this should be taken as *constructive* critiques. I think everyone here agrees that YouTube has huge potential as a teaching tool and a way to promote the hobby, particularly these days with many clubs staying home during the pandemic. I know I personally will watch just about anything on YouTube that has a Model A in it. So I appreciate that you're putting yourself out there, making the videos, trying to contribute. That's good and we should encourage it.

There are lots of ways these videos could be improved. Brent touched on some above, but what caught my attention was that it just felt like you were taking a lot of shortcuts and it was evident on screen. For example:
  • Entire camshaft video is shot in vertical orientation - c'mon, rookie!
  • In the oil pump and crankshaft videos, you don't name the parts you're taking out. This is a key service videos provide, helping folks learn the names and functions of each component.
  • The whole thing with using another author's description of pitting is important because it needs to be in your own words. Anyone can look up that description - if you're going to put it in the video, you should do the work of understanding the content and contextualizing it for your audience.

You posted this engine in the swap meet as being parted out, so am I to understand that you're taking it apart but have no intention of putting it back together? If so you should disclose that in the videos.

If you want to continue making Model A content, my recommendation is to look at other Model A creators doing work right now, like Paul Shinn, Jack Bahm, Ryan Burkhardt, the guy who does the "richpin" channel and his glorious accent. Watch their videos and make notes about what works, what doesn't. How do they use the camera? How do they make sure the audience understands what's happening? What are they trying to communicate and does it succeed? That'll help you learn these techniques for your own channel.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 09:56 AM   #8
Young Blood
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 11
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Brent, thanks for your feedback. I was under the impression this forum was so we could all learn from each other and improve? I mean, that's literally the reason I joined this community. Impressing the group is not the goal so much as learning from your many, many years of personal experience so it can be passed on and appreciated by further generations.

Regarding the fuel pump vid, what would you have added between the valve cover and lower distributor shaft sections?


Mike, very interesting tip regarding the valve tool grind. I'll look into this further and let you know how it turns out! Thanks for your input.
Young Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 10:05 AM   #9
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,919
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Your title line includes the words "Inspection and Evaluation".

1) How much measured wear is on each bearing journal?
2) How much bend/ runout when the first and last bearing are on V blocks?
3) How much wear is in the dizzy drive helix and is it even?
4) With a degree wheel and indicator do all intake & exhaust profiles match each other and are they index-timed correctly?

The above would require actually removing the cam and evaluating. You only did an in-place visual.

Lots of talk and reference to others but nowhere did the viewer actually see you do anything that would remotely qualify as a true evaluation. They only saw a 'I guess it looks OK'.

It is work like that that makes half (maybe more?) of the A's on the road run like cement mixers full of rocks.

I do agree with you using "Sh*t" in the series title. Descriptive of the content.
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 10:25 AM   #10
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Blood View Post
I was under the impression this forum was so we could all learn from each other and improve? I mean, that's literally the reason I joined this community.
There is a sort of informal rule here that the audience is packed with literally full-time professional machinists, and so if you are not a pro-level machinist and you ask them to critique anything on the topic of machining, you are likely to get verbally mauled. Don't get me wrong, it's a constructive mauling, but you might not come back for seconds.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 10:31 AM   #11
Young Blood
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 11
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
There is a sort of informal rule here that the audience is packed with literally full-time professional machinists, and so if you are not a pro-level machinist and you ask them to critique anything on the topic of machining, you are likely to get verbally mauled. Don't get me wrong, it's a constructive mauling, but you might not come back for seconds.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that lol.

And I know, i'm still getting my camera set up down. I need to get the adapter for my tripod to hold a phone- last video I did balanced on a pair of pliers and a pocket knife. I'll get there!

As for naming the parts, this definitely something I want to further develop. I was thinking of using a single image with callouts on them? This is the mockup I started the other night for a future video- what do you think? (attached)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Generator Photo 1.jpg (20.4 KB, 103 views)
Young Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 10:45 AM   #12
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Hard to see b/c the attachment is so small, but it's a start. What we've got here is that your engine has obviously sat for years and would need a complete restoration, but it's not clear either that you intend to do that restoration or that you even could. So if the goal of this video series is just "I'm taking this engine down piece by piece and I'm just going to talk you through what I find"... that's a legit topic, but take it seriously. Don't just toss off "here's this part, I dunno what it's called." Think through what you're doing to hold the audience's interest. Why are they watching?
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 10:53 AM   #13
Young Blood
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 11
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Hard to see b/c the attachment is so small, but it's a start. What we've got here is that your engine has obviously sat for years and would need a complete restoration, but it's not clear either that you intend to do that restoration or that you even could. So if the goal of this video series is just "I'm taking this engine down piece by piece and I'm just going to talk you through what I find"... that's a legit topic, but take it seriously. Don't just toss off "here's this part, I dunno what it's called." Think through what you're doing to hold the audience's interest. Why are they watching?

Valid point and I appreciate it. I'll definitely make a point to get labels and names for everything ahead of time. I've also started loosening some pieces beforehand too, just because how loud the drill gets.

I think that's what my goal is, basically I'm tearing it apart and let's see what we find. I find in a lot of videos, especially regarding older engines, there's not much info to things to expect ahead of time (dowels, pins, clips, etc.) as well as there'll be videos that are geared more towards professional machinists or require expensive tools. I'd like to lean closer to the "backyard mechanic" I guess you'd call it.

Again, I appreciate your constructive criticism. Thanks!
Young Blood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 11:08 AM   #14
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

One of the hardest things about this type of video is that you usually have a dataset of 1. I see a lot of videos where it's clear that the guy owns one Model A or one engine and probably that's the only A or 4-banger that he's really closely examined. So a bias creeps in because the creator doesn't have a clear sense of what's normal/abnormal, what's missing, etc. If you can do the background work to, e.g., reference the Andrews book to ensure your fasteners are really to spec, review the parts vendor sites (not MAC's, a good one), that'll help you give more context to your audience. For example, mike657894 flagged a mysterious baffle in one of your pistons. You should check that out.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 11:10 AM   #15
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Blood View Post
Brent, thanks for your feedback. I was under the impression this forum was so we could all learn from each other and improve? I mean, that's literally the reason I joined this community. Impressing the group is not the goal so much as learning from your many, many years of personal experience so it can be passed on and appreciated by further generations.

Regarding the fuel pump vid, what would you have added between the valve cover and lower distributor shaft sections?
A Model-A does engine not have a fuel pump. The video I watched from you was how to remove the oil pump. The oil pump can be removed without removing the valve cover and/or removing the lower distributor drive shaft.

This forum IS for learning and sharing experiences. The hang-up that some have is reading (-or viewing) non-factual information. For example, using your video as an example, if a newbie wanted to remove his engine's oil pump and he were to use your video as his guide, it is believable that he would feel he needed to remove the valve chamber cover, the oil drain-back tube, the carburetor, along with the oil pan just to remove the oil pump. Nothing could be further from being factual in learning from that video. I trust you see my point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
There is a sort of informal rule here that the audience is packed with literally full-time professional machinists, and so if you are not a pro-level machinist and you ask them to critique anything on the topic of machining, you are likely to get verbally mauled. Don't get me wrong, it's a constructive mauling, but you might not come back for seconds.
IMO this opinion of yours is total nonsense. I have been here for many years and that has never been the intent from my perspective. It has, however, amazed me how some folks will become offended after they have knowingly posted falsified or incorrect information here yet feel like they are being verbally mauled if their 'audience' does not agree with their comment. It is my opinion that others should not need to critique or research every comment made as to whether it is factual or not. Posters should have the respect to not guess at an answer while wording their post as if it is to be perceived as factual. The issue with this is, -hobbyists come here to learn the facts so they can make intelligent decisions regarding their own circumstances. Having to decipher whether the posted advice being given is truly factual should not be a perquisite here.

FWIW, I have viewed your videos too. Add yourself to the above list of content providers.

I do want to ask the question, ...at what point is a content provider experienced enough to be a teacher? Is doing the same task on multiple vehicles enough to be able to speak of the various scenarios that someone might encounter? Should someone actually have completely restored their own vehicle with their own tools be necessary? I personally think so if it will be construed as a 'how-to' video where the intention is to give instruction to others. For example, Les Andrews did not write a book as a teacher when he was a newbie. Les brought many years of experience that he obtained restoring multiple Model-A vehicles before he was considered a qualified and knowledgeable content provider.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.

Last edited by BRENT in 10-uh-C; 12-01-2020 at 11:37 AM. Reason: ...adding further content
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 11:33 AM   #16
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
IMO this opinion of yours is total nonsense. It has however, amazed me how folks will become offended after they have posted falsified or incorrect information here yet feel like they are being verbally mauled if their 'audience' does not agree with their comment. It is my opinion that others should not need to critique or research every comment made as to whether it is factual or not. Posters should have the respect to not guess at an answer while wording their post as if it is to be perceived as factual. The issue with this is, -hobbyists come here to learn the facts so they can make intelligent decisions regarding their own circumstances. Having to decipher whether the posted advice being given is truly factual should not be a perquisite here.

FWIW, I have viewed your videos too. Add yourself to the above list of content providers.
I've only ever posted one video, so I don't know that I'd count myself as a content creator. I try to have a healthy humility about what I know and don't know. I do think your tone when you see what you consider to be "falsified information" is moralistic and patronizing. I respect your presence on this board and I'm not here to lecture you, but I don't know why you're amazed that people don't like it when you go out of your way to say how annoyed you are at them.

Last edited by alexiskai; 12-01-2020 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Edited to account for Brent's edit.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 11:45 AM   #17
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I do want to ask the question, ...at what point is a content provider experienced enough to be a teacher? Is doing the same task on multiple vehicles enough to be able to speak of the various scenarios that someone might encounter? Should someone actually have completely restored their own vehicle with their own tools be necessary? I personally think so if it will be construed as a 'how-to' video where the intention is to give instruction to others.
It depends entirely on the context. I like it when creators are upfront about their limitations or the limited applicability of the technique they're demonstrating. In my seat belt video, I tried to be real clear about its one-off nature, how my car was missing certain braces in certain spots.

We can have this discussion about who should be considered an authority in the field, but it should also be noted that very few of the people that I think you would consider an authority (certainly none in the area of precision machining) are currently out there making Model A videos. The gatekeeper argument is a lot stronger if you can point to elder statesmen who are making the content already.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 12:49 PM   #18
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
We can have this discussion about who should be considered an authority in the field, but it should also be noted that very few of the people that I think you would consider an authority (certainly none in the area of precision machining) are currently out there making Model A videos. The gatekeeper argument is a lot stronger if you can point to elder statesmen who are making the content already.
Let me start by saying it this way. I have an evergrowing list of nearly 100 different Model-A topics that I wanted to post on a weekly basis as a YouTube content creator. What I have learned after filming a couple is there is too much work (-time and expense) for the reward given in return in producing videos. Therefore it is strictly done as a labor of love to do it correctly. Look at Mark Clayton's video series on the Victoria project he is/was restoring. Mark has great knowledge of the content he is providing however he appears to be struggling with the time it takes to actually produce the content. I feel certain I don't want to follow in his footsteps in that regard.

And, ...the information for most topics, -along with answers to most questions can be found if someone will just search here, -or take the time to read any of the printed material often referenced here (RG&JS, Les' red book, etc.) however it appears that to most new hobbyist, even that is more work than most are willing to participate in. So I don't know what the best answer is, but I do know that what this hobby does need is less misinformation. Facebook's Model-A pages have the misinformational thingie well covered!!

.
.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 01:10 PM   #19
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Let me start by saying it this way. I have an evergrowing list of nearly 100 different Model-A topics that I wanted to post on a weekly basis as a YouTube content creator. What I have learned after filming a couple is there is too much work (-time and expense) for the reward given in return in producing videos. Therefore it is strictly done as a labor of love to do it correctly. Look at Mark Clayton's video series on the Victoria project he is/was restoring. Mark has great knowledge of the content he is providing however he appears to be struggling with the time it takes to actually produce the content. I feel certain I don't want to follow in his footsteps in that regard.

And, ...the information for most topics, -along with answers to most questions can be found if someone will just search here, -or take the time to read any of the printed material often referenced here (RG&JS, Les' red book, etc.) however it appears that to most new hobbyist, even that is more work than most are willing to participate in. So I don't know what the best answer is, but I do know that what this hobby does need is less misinformation. Facebook's Model-A pages have the misinformational thingie well covered!!
I completely agree with you that video content is a *ton* of work to do well. I deeply respect the effort that clearly goes into Paul Shinn's videos, and I like that he covers core information that's useful to new and seasoned owners alike. I hadn't known about Clayton's series, thank you for that reference.

There's no easy solution, but we do need to recognize that video will have a role to play in the future of the hobby, replacing to some extent the in-person skill transfer that used to happen from father to son or from older club members to younger ones. Obviously that still happens, but we depend on it at our peril. Written material, either in dead-tree binders (Les's book does have a few errors that were never corrected) or poorly-organized forums like this one, can only go so far. For one thing, it's rare in forums to have someone give a complete step-by-step procedure the way Les's books do.

I personally would pay some amount if you wanted to start a pay-subscription video series. Just a thought.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 01:55 PM   #20
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 3,660
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I thought this was supposed to be about camshafts, not a critique on the video???
My evaluation of the pictured cam is that the lobes are very regrindable, if there is such a word? The minor pitting of the lobes will easily be removed while re-grinding the cam. A more important thing is the diameter of the center lobe, this is the one most likely to have wear. Questions asked by MikeK are:
1) How much measured wear is on each bearing journal?
2) How much bend/ runout when the first and last bearing are on V blocks?
3) How much wear is in the dizzy drive helix and is it even?
4) With a degree wheel and indicator do all intake & exhaust profiles match each other and are they index-timed correctly?

My answers are:
#1, I recommend a minimum diameter of 1.556".
#2, a cam is very unlikely to be bent unless it has been hit by a broken rod.
#3, very important, but oversize dist drive gears are available
#4, Extremely unlikely to be off.

In re-grinding a cam, the process is 1, straighten the cam. 2, grind the lobes, using #1 lobe as the starting/locating point. 3, re-straighten the cam. Often grinders then put a coating on the cam to lessen any chance of wear on break-in.

When I grind a cam I first machine the nose where the thrust button contacts it, if needed and almost always is. Second is re-machining the cam where the gear mounts, if needed, they are occasionally nicked or shows signs of mis-treatment. Third is to check the fit of the dowell pins, usually OK unless a pin is missing. I occasionally need to machine a pin that is larger in diameter than stock. When I make a new pin, I also make it longer than stock, for more stability. BTW, all pins are not the same diameter where they press into the cam. Note: Not all cam nuts are identical in thread diameter, I try to send the original nut with the cam I have re-ground, when possible.

Model A/B cams are made of very good steel, and do not require heat treating.
Jim Brierley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 02:29 PM   #21
McMimmcs
Senior Member
 
McMimmcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,015
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
I thought this was supposed to be about camshafts, not a critique on the video???
My evaluation of the pictured cam is that the lobes are very regrindable, if there is such a word? The minor pitting of the lobes will easily be removed while re-grinding the cam. A more important thing is the diameter of the center lobe, this is the one most likely to have wear. Questions asked by MikeK are:
1) How much measured wear is on each bearing journal?
2) How much bend/ runout when the first and last bearing are on V blocks?
3) How much wear is in the dizzy drive helix and is it even?
4) With a degree wheel and indicator do all intake & exhaust profiles match each other and are they index-timed correctly?

My answers are:
#1, I recommend a minimum diameter of 1.556".
#2, a cam is very unlikely to be bent unless it has been hit by a broken rod.
#3, very important, but oversize dist drive gears are available
#4, Extremely unlikely to be off.

In re-grinding a cam, the process is 1, straighten the cam. 2, grind the lobes, using #1 lobe as the starting/locating point. 3, re-straighten the cam. Often grinders then put a coating on the cam to lessen any chance of wear on break-in.

When I grind a cam I first machine the nose where the thrust button contacts it, if needed and almost always is. Second is re-machining the cam where the gear mounts, if needed, they are occasionally nicked or shows signs of mis-treatment. Third is to check the fit of the dowell pins, usually OK unless a pin is missing. I occasionally need to machine a pin that is larger in diameter than stock. When I make a new pin, I also make it longer than stock, for more stability. BTW, all pins are not the same diameter where they press into the cam. Note: Not all cam nuts are identical in thread diameter, I try to send the original nut with the cam I have re-ground, when possible.

Model A/B cams are made of very good steel, and do not require heat treating.
It was my opinion he was asking what do you think about his ability to create YouTube videos!
McMimmcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 02:58 PM   #22
MikeK
Senior Member
 
MikeK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Windy City
Posts: 2,919
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
I thought this was supposed to be about camshafts, not a critique on the video??? . . .
The original poster stated in the second paragraph: "Let me know what you think!" The four items I posted were unaddressed unknowns and directed toward that point, not open ended questions.

I certainly agree with your responses to my four points, but that all remains unknown until the cam is pulled and evaluated. Unlike your regrinds, which speak from reputation, the cam in that engine could be a terrible regrind, subject to countless maladies and not an untouched original.
__________________
Mechanical engineering 101: If you put an adjustment knob, screw, bolt, or tolerance specs on something, some people will immediately fiddle with it. If you mark it DO NOT TOUCH everyone will mess with it.
MikeK is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-01-2020, 03:05 PM   #23
Brentwood Bob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: brentwood, ca
Posts: 3,456
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Takes a lot of effort, and some thought to make a video. It is also a learning, and improving process. My advice is keep at it. One day we may reach the level of those mentioned above, until that time, do your best.
Should be enough room on the YouTube channel for some of us to continue.
Viewer interest should be an indicator of how good the video turned out to be.
Brentwood Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 09:03 AM   #24
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob View Post
Takes a lot of effort, and some thought to make a video. It is also a learning, and improving process. My advice is keep at it. One day we may reach the level of those mentioned above, until that time, do your best.
Should be enough room on the YouTube channel for some of us to continue.
Viewer interest should be an indicator of how good the video turned out to be.
Bob, you are another content provider that should be in the mention above.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 09:15 AM   #25
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Are there links to Bob's videos? I watched the whole Mark Clayton Victoria series last night and it was great. Let's turn this into a reference for great Model A video creators.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 09:15 AM   #26
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
One question for those who are attempting, -or producing YouTube content. Are you writing a script or outline of topics within the video shoot that you want to cover, ...or are you just winging it and filming whatever comes to mind at the moment?

I am personally generating video content for us to use internally in my business, and I have a Excel spreadsheet for each topic along with an outline of each task needed in that topic along with notes for props or samples to show. For example, if I were producing a video on rebuilding a Brake Housing (Backing) Plate, I would want to show the differences of each variation for easy identification. I would also want to show how to remove the track rivets so as not to scar the plate, and how to clean them, how to use our fixture to install the new tracks, how to partially chase the threads for the adjusting wedge, how to straighten or repair the lip, etc. I always worry that I will miss some little detail in the entire content that would require me to do more post editing after I have published the vid. Therefore I just make notes on my phone as I think of things, and then update my spreadsheet to add those things to cover.

Am curious what is working for others.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 09:17 AM   #27
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
Are there links to Bob's videos? I watched the whole Mark Clayton Victoria series last night and it was great. Let's turn this into a reference for great Model A video creators.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf8...BcHpnllY3a5HdQ
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 09:55 AM   #28
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
One question for those who are attempting, -or producing YouTube content. Are you writing a script or outline of topics within the video shoot that you want to cover, ...or are you just winging it and filming whatever comes to mind at the moment?

I am personally generating video content for us to use internally in my business, and I have a Excel spreadsheet for each topic along with an outline of each task needed in that topic along with notes for props or samples to show. For example, if I were producing a video on rebuilding a Brake Housing (Backing) Plate, I would want to show the differences of each variation for easy identification. I would also want to show how to remove the track rivets so as not to scar the plate, and how to clean them, how to use our fixture to install the new tracks, how to partially chase the threads for the adjusting wedge, how to straighten or repair the lip, etc. I always worry that I will miss some little detail in the entire content that would require me to do more post editing after I have published the vid. Therefore I just make notes on my phone as I think of things, and then update my spreadsheet to add those things to cover.

Am curious what is working for others.
I'm not doing Model A video content, but I am part of a team at my day job that produces short marketing videos. If I'm reading you correctly, you're asking basically about prompting during the shoot. We load a script into a prompter app that runs on an iPad attached to the camera mount. I believe the app is PromptSmart. It uses voice recognition to automatically advance the text as you talk, so you don't need to worry about pausing to demo something.

One advantage of doing instructional videos with a script is that it forces you to actually write down the instructions. This not only tends to improve the quality of the instructions, but you then have written instructions you can send to people and you can search for the text in your script archive to quickly locate the video where you talked about X.

Last edited by alexiskai; 12-02-2020 at 10:00 AM.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 10:57 AM   #29
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I'm not doing Model A video content, but I am part of a team at my day job that produces short marketing videos. If I'm reading you correctly, you're asking basically about prompting during the shoot. We load a script into a prompter app that runs on an iPad attached to the camera mount. I believe the app is PromptSmart. It uses voice recognition to automatically advance the text as you talk, so you don't need to worry about pausing to demo something.

One advantage of doing instructional videos with a script is that it forces you to actually write down the instructions. This not only tends to improve the quality of the instructions, but you then have written instructions you can send to people and you can search for the text in your script archive to quickly locate the video where you talked about X.
No, what I am asking is who is writing a script beforehand, -and how detailed is the content in this script? For me personally, I know what to say, ...when I can remember to say it.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2020, 11:17 AM   #30
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

The point of being prompted is to relieve your brain of the cognitive load of remembering what to say so that you can say it more effectively. If you'll be:
  • on camera
  • using extended takes
  • needing to mention specific details
then I would recommend a script and optionally a prompter if you want to maintain eye contact with the camera.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 12:32 PM   #31
P.S.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 1,543
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I was given the link to this thread and asked to comment.


Although it is very humbling to be considered a YouTube Model A creator in high regard, please don't use my videos as an example of what to do. I am not an expert video maker in any way. Keeping that in mind, I'll gladly share my novice thoughts since I was asked to comment.


First, having a plan for a video is important to the finished product. I usually storyboard a video well in advance of making it, hitting the main points it will cover and do a couple rough concept drawings as to what the camera angles should be for best view of the work being done. Nothing is worse than someone's body or head getting in the way of the action.


I don't produce full scripts, but I do bullet point the dialogue beforehand. Luckily, I have 36 years of radio broadcasting experience to fall back on to fill in the blanks. Most of my "scripts" are something like this-



1. Open. Topic- Removing oil pump from motor.
2. Remove oil pan. Talk about gaskets. Talk about screw to hold oil pump.
3. Show how to remove old gasket.
4. Show oil pump.
5. Show how oil pump pin fits in slot. Show pump drive.
6. Closeup of pump drive. Show gears. Show pump out of motor.
etc.
So, I script the talking points, and script the parts to talk about and parts to show. I also script the parts where I pause for a closeup or detail explanation. If you have this planned in advance, it gives you a good feel for the pacing and allows you to tweak the video before you ever start recording and saves a lot of time.



In the case of the video being discussed here, I agree with some of the comments above about watching the language and verbiage used during a video. Whether or not we're adults here isn't the issue. I have seen and heard the S-word millions of times, maybe even used it a time or two, but in the context of a video, it is a real turn off. Generational or not, foul language isn't just offensive to snowflakes, it's offensive in general.


Every video should have a conclusion or accomplishment to tie it all together. What is the purpose? What is the desired outcome? If the viewer is going to invest their time into watching your video, what can they expect to get out of it? Make that clear in the beginning. "Today, we're going to remove a camshaft from a Ford Model A motor and inspect it. I'll show you what to look for." That would be a great hook for your video. At the end, the viewer got what you promised and feels good about the time investment.


Last piece of advice is keep it moving. If you have to stop and think a minute, that's fine. Do an edit so the audience doesn't have to wait for you to gather your thoughts. Watching someone stumble through the process of finding the right word or tool is painful.


I cannot count how many clips, shots, or full videos get deleted because it just isn't coming together properly. When something is going sideways, just stop and regroup. I have had to delete entire videos because I knew if I posted that garbage, it would hurt the overall channel. All you have to do is deter someone one time with one video to make them never come back for any of your videos ever again. There's a LOT of pressure to be on your game at all times. And, sometimes that means burying your mistakes. It's tough to throw away a week or two's worth of work, but if it tastes bad, spit it out.



Other than that, I think the concept of your videos could be very helpful to someone wanting to learn something in particular. You cannot expect to be perfect right off the bat, but you can certainly get better.



I wish you the best of luck if you decide to pursue this. There are lots of reasons people decide to make videos and post for the public to view. My intention has always been to help others. Along the way, you'll meet people and have opportunities to help that you never imagined. It feels good to be able to give back.

Last edited by P.S.; 12-28-2020 at 12:42 PM.
P.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 12:59 PM   #32
Brentwood Bob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: brentwood, ca
Posts: 3,456
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Well said, and will certainly be helpful to me.
Nothing like sharing your wisdom.

Last edited by Brentwood Bob; 12-28-2020 at 02:27 PM.
Brentwood Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 01:56 PM   #33
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Making videos is an ego driven endeavor under the guise of it being a 'contribution to the community'.The fallacy of it is commensurate with the lack of experience of those shooting them.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 01:58 PM   #34
P.S.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 1,543
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Speaking of wisdom... There's Bob! One of these days, we should do a collaboration video together.
P.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 02:21 PM   #35
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 4,425
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Making videos is an ego driven endeavor under the guise of it being a 'contribution to the community'.The fallacy of it is commensurate with the lack of experience of those shooting them.
That precisely, is the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 02:23 PM   #36
P.S.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 1,543
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Making videos is an ego driven endeavor under the guise of it being a 'contribution to the community'.The fallacy of it is commensurate with the lack of experience of those shooting them.

And THIS is why I do not hang around the forums anymore. This is very incorrect.


So long.
P.S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 02:47 PM   #37
Ruth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Glide, Oregon
Posts: 1,089
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S. View Post
And THIS is why I do not hang around the forums anymore. This is very incorrect.


So long.
I usually just put the offending party on my "ignore list". That makes it easy to skip over.
__________________
Ruth
"Sometimes you really DO need to read the whole thread"
Ruth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 02:57 PM   #38
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Making videos is an ego driven endeavor under the guise of it being a 'contribution to the community'.
Of course it's ego-driven. Doesn't make it not worth doing. Posting a mix of technical comments and unsolicited criticism to this message board 850 times in 12 months is ego-driven too. Hate to break it to you, Jack, but you're one of us.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2020, 05:31 PM   #39
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
That precisely, is the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Damn,I fell on an 'effect'...like the blind squirrel, I found an acorn..
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2020, 06:24 PM   #40
kawagumby
Senior Member
 
kawagumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Hollister, CA
Posts: 127
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Is there a named "effect" for the opposite situation...people who are capable of a task but feel incapable? That would certainly sum up my feelings about aging and working on my '31 in anything but warm weather....and nowadays doing a lot of other things too...
kawagumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2020, 08:25 PM   #41
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Northern California winters are hard to explain, not that cold when looking at a thermometer but those days when the low comes right out of Alaska, and the Tule fog rises up ..bone chilling is the best way to describe it,wet bone chilling cold..
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2020, 11:27 PM   #42
Bill G
Senior Member
 
Bill G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Walla Walla, WA
Posts: 877
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

It seems that Youtube is very much a part of our lives these days. I recently needed some videos to help me understand what I was getting into on a couple occasions: refrigerator door leveling, brake pads on a John Deere lawn tractor, Delta shower faucet rebuilding and garage door insulating....Just to name a few. For each of these there are numerous videos that range from downright hacks to knowledgeable pros. I usually go through all the various videos and try to piece together my best course of action.

Videos serve a purpose, and are very appreciated. I have done a couple myself and holy cow. The last one I did took about 3 hours to do a 2-1/2 minute video, but I am a novice at filming and editing. My hat is off to those who have dedicated countless hours of time to produce their content. Sometimes seeing the process is much better than reading it 100 times from a book.

I might have methods and techniques that differ from video authors, but I still watch them. I can tell you that in my early times of owning my Model A, I got to know the car a lot better and knowing some hints and traps by watching videos. Jack Bahm comes to mind. He does a great job of presenting simple and practical content that may or may not be absolutely condoned by some, but his videos are such that a novice can generally keep their car on the road by those videos. More recent content by Paul Shinn is also very much at the top of my list.
Bill G is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-30-2020, 07:54 AM   #43
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
It seems that Youtube is very much a part of our lives these days. I recently needed some videos to help me understand what I was getting into on a couple occasions: refrigerator door leveling, brake pads on a John Deere lawn tractor, Delta shower faucet rebuilding and garage door insulating....Just to name a few. For each of these there are numerous videos that range from downright hacks to knowledgeable pros. I usually go through all the various videos and try to piece together my best course of action.

Videos serve a purpose, and are very appreciated. I have done a couple myself and holy cow. The last one I did took about 3 hours to do a 2-1/2 minute video, but I am a novice at filming and editing. My hat is off to those who have dedicated countless hours of time to produce their content. Sometimes seeing the process is much better than reading it 100 times from a book.

I might have methods and techniques that differ from video authors, but I still watch them. I can tell you that in my early times of owning my Model A, I got to know the car a lot better and knowing some hints and traps by watching videos. Jack Bahm comes to mind. He does a great job of presenting simple and practical content that may or may not be absolutely condoned by some, but his videos are such that a novice can generally keep their car on the road by those videos. More recent content by Paul Shinn is also very much at the top of my list.

I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head! The biggest downfall to videos IMO is it has removed the most valuable tool in the garage. It has eliminated the need for problem solving. For example, if a 'mechanic' finds himself spending an hour watching 3 or 4 videos for someone to show how they did a task, what has that 'mechanic' actually learned? On the other hand, instead of watching videos, if the mechanic went straight to the garage to do the necessary task and spent 30 minutes using learned "problem solving" skills to do the same task, not only is valuable time saved ...but the mechanic has used his most valuable tool, -his brain, to understand the entire mechanism. Experience will always be the best teacher, but if "problem solving" skills are not used frequently, we lose them. IMO, finding an applicable video on YouTube is not really problem solving.

Something else to ponder, think about how many Model-As were restored 30-50 years ago by hobbyists who did not have YouTube nor Les' book to refer to when they worked on their Model-A. By comparison, think about how many fewer Model-As are being restored today (-or the last decade or so) by hobbyists, -and even how many hobbyists struggle with the simplest of Model-A tasks (-as evidenced by the questions asked on social media and online platforms).
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 09:21 AM   #44
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I agree, abstract thought and attention to detail, critical for developing a mechanics skill are lost in videos...The ability to visualize complex functions and the reading of 'witness marks' during assembly of a repair are learned skills, not taught.

Building 'basket cases' blind is the best skill enhancer there is, where function analysis and assembly techniques merge.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 10:47 AM   #45
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Something else to ponder, think about how many Model-As were restored 30-50 years ago by hobbyists who did not have YouTube nor Les' book to refer to when they worked on their Model-A. By comparison, think about how many fewer Model-As are being restored today (or the last decade or so) by hobbyists, and even how many hobbyists struggle with the simplest of Model-A tasks (as evidenced by the questions asked on social media and online platforms).
I know this discussion is getting a little meta, but this brings up an important point. What's the difference between the hobbyists of the '70s and '80s (yes, the '70s are 50 years ago, we're all old) and today?

The Model A community is what E.C. Wenger calls a "community of practice." In a CoP:
  • A domain of knowledge creates common ground, inspires members to participate, guides their learning and gives meaning to their actions.
  • Practitioners of a particular craft share tips and best practices, ask questions of their colleagues, and provide support for each other.
  • The amount of time spent "reinventing the wheel" is reduced.
  • Members who demonstrate expertise and experience acquire social capital and respect.

Overlapping with the Model A CoP, there's also a distinct "virtual" CoP, a community in which the members rarely or never meet in person. Instead the domain of knowledge is transmitted online, through text and media. Everyone reading this is a member of the Model A VCoP, but not everyone reading this is a member of the "real world" CoP. And I think that's the root cause of a lot of the tension in these discussions.

You see, one of the core functions of a CoP is to transmit what's called tacit knowledge. Tacit knowledge is all the knowledge about a craft that's difficult or impossible to transmit using language. For example:
  • how something should look, feel, or sound when it's running properly
  • what a particular appearance or noise indicates about a problem
  • how much force a particular component can take
  • how much of a liquid product to use (grease, RTV, paint) and the best way to apply it
  • techniques for nuanced tasks like shaping sheet metal or applying pinstripes

This is distinct from explicit knowledge, which is the knowledge that can be recorded in books or described on a message board. A VCoP, by its nature, is going to be bad at transmitting tacit knowledge. One of the very few ways to do this is through video. But most videos don't have the intent of transmitting tacit knowledge, and the ones that do often don't succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
abstract thought and attention to detail, critical for developing a mechanics skill are lost in videos...The ability to visualize complex functions and the reading of 'witness marks' during assembly of a repair are learned skills, not taught.
The sentiment above is correct in the sense that videos rarely do this, but it's wrong in the sense that you could do this in a video. There's nothing inherent in the medium that prevents it what prevents it is that most video makers don't invest the time or have the underlying skills to accomplish it. The skills in question are both the "domain" skill, i.e. that you have to be able to correctly read the witness marks and understand the system spatially, and the pedagogic skill, that you have to know how to transmit that knowledge to someone over video. It's not just a problem with video; there are many master craftsmen out there who are terrible teachers even in person.

If videos aren't transmitting tacit knowledge and frequently aren't even transmitting explicit knowledge then the virtual CoP will never achieve the level of craftsmanship that the real-world CoP can achieve. And I think this is why a lot of folks who came up in the traditional CoP dismiss videos as a learning tool, and it's also why, to circle back to Brent's question, modern hobbyists often struggle with simple tasks. They aren't part of a CoP that would allow them to learn those tasks through what's called legitimate peripheral participation:
Quote:
Newcomers become members of a community initially by participating in simple and low-risk tasks that are nonetheless productive and necessary and further the goals of the community. Through peripheral activities, novices become acquainted with the tasks, vocabulary, and organizing principles of the community's practitioners. Gradually, as newcomers become old timers and gain a recognized level of mastery, their participation takes forms that are more and more central to the functioning of the community. LPP suggests that membership in a CoP is mediated by the possible forms of participation to which newcomers have access, both physically and socially... If newcomers can directly observe the practices of experts, they understand the broader context into which their own efforts fit. Conversely LPP suggests that newcomers who are separated from the experts have limited access to their tools and community and therefore have limited growth. As participation increases, situations arise that allow the participant to assess how well they are contributing through their efforts, thus LPP provides a means for self-evaluation.
The problem, though, is that the virtual Model A CoP is not going anywhere, and in fact it's going to be critical for the preservation and transmission of this body of knowledge over the next 100 years. The CoP that a lot of older members grew up in, which encompassed not just the Model A knowledge domain directly, but also the familiarity with tooling and machine maintenance that was much more common just one generation ago and that was passed down both in families and through industrial jobs that CoP is a shadow of what it once was. If you want the Model A body of knowledge to live on, you have to be willing to engage with the VCoP and want it to succeed as a viable entry point and partner to the CoP that exists in clubs and swap meets.

That means two things: first, the quality of the videos has to get better, because like it or not those videos are how a lot of these skills are being transmitted. That means more people have to be out there publishing videos and practicing that craft, the craft of making instructional videos. Second, at least some of the people who are master craftsmen in the real-world CoP have to start making videos, because otherwise the "master craftsmen" of the VCoP will just be the guys who are willing to make the videos but don't have the skill set.

Speaking to the master craftsmen out there, you guys have a ton of tacit knowledge that you could be transmitting to this VCoP purely through videos just of you doing your work. You don't have to launch at a high level of video skill. You could just start with static setups, speak off the cuff, comment on whatever occurs to you. As long as the audio is clear and the angle allows us to see your work, that's an important contribution. Let other folks put out the slick, polished productions.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 11:06 AM   #46
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Making videos is an ego driven endeavor under the guise of it being a 'contribution to the community'.The fallacy of it is commensurate with the lack of experience of those shooting them.
Perhaps but no moreso than posting a picture of your car every chance you get even if it is only remotely relevant to the discussion. The only videos that annoy me are the ones with a lengthy preamble. I'm not interested in why the video is being made or where the inspiration comes from. If it starts out with a preamble, I leave and look for another video that gets to the point. Otherwise, I find "how to" or "FYI" videos VERY informative and enjoyable. If they are "ego driven", so be it. I don't care.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 11:21 AM   #47
goodcar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 243
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head! The biggest downfall to videos IMO is it has removed the most valuable tool in the garage. It has eliminated the need for problem solving. For example, if a 'mechanic' finds himself spending an hour watching 3 or 4 videos for someone to show how they did a task, what has that 'mechanic' actually learned? On the other hand, instead of watching videos, if the mechanic went straight to the garage to do the necessary task and spent 30 minutes using learned "problem solving" skills to do the same task, not only is valuable time saved ...but the mechanic has used his most valuable tool, -his brain, to understand the entire mechanism. Experience will always be the best teacher, but if "problem solving" skills are not used frequently, we lose them. IMO, finding an applicable video on YouTube is not really problem solving.

Something else to ponder, think about how many Model-As were restored 30-50 years ago by hobbyists who did not have YouTube nor Les' book to refer to when they worked on their Model-A. By comparison, think about how many fewer Model-As are being restored today (-or the last decade or so) by hobbyists, -and even how many hobbyists struggle with the simplest of Model-A tasks (-as evidenced by the questions asked on social media and online platforms).
I don't totally disagree with you, however, some people simply aren't mechanically inclined nor do they have the logical reasoning ability to disect a problem to arrive at a solution. They might even be challenged with a very good video and would be better off to pay someone else to fix their problems. Can't blame them for trying though.
goodcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 11:30 AM   #48
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head! The biggest downfall to videos IMO is it has removed the most valuable tool in the garage. It has eliminated the need for problem solving. For example, if a 'mechanic' finds himself spending an hour watching 3 or 4 videos for someone to show how they did a task, what has that 'mechanic' actually learned? On the other hand, instead of watching videos, if the mechanic went straight to the garage to do the necessary task and spent 30 minutes using learned "problem solving" skills to do the same task, not only is valuable time saved ...but the mechanic has used his most valuable tool, -his brain, to understand the entire mechanism. Experience will always be the best teacher, but if "problem solving" skills are not used frequently, we lose them. IMO, finding an applicable video on YouTube is not really problem solving.
I see it the exact opposite. By that way of looking at it, why go to school to be a mechanic in the first place (as an example). Just learn by trial and error, problem solving by the seat of your pants right from the start. Just don't expect me to pay you to do that on my stuff. My son told me something several months ago that has turned out to be pretty much bang on. He said "you have to do things 3 times before you get it right". I have since been paying attention and that is pretty accurate for things I have never done before. I watch a couple of "how to" or FYI" video's pretty much every day. I installed a TV in my "coffee room" in my shop and at 9:00 and 3:00 most days I stop for a coffee and watch a video. Most are relevant to things I am doing at the time but others are just things that look interesting. I learn something from every single one of them and have noticed that my "problem solving skills" have improved profoundly since i have started watching these videos daily only a few months ago. I personally am grateful to those that take the time to share their knowledge in video.

Quote:
Something else to ponder, think about how many Model-As were restored 30-50 years ago by hobbyists who did not have YouTube nor Les' book to refer to when they worked on their Model-A. By comparison, think about how many fewer Model-As are being restored today (-or the last decade or so) by hobbyists, -and even how many hobbyists struggle with the simplest of Model-A tasks (-as evidenced by the questions asked on social media and online platforms).
I can't answer to that with any conviction as I was not into these cars 50 years ago. However, In all likelihood, there were a LOT more of these cars around to get parts from and to examine for information as well as, I suspect more people around with intimate knowledge of these cars to glean info from. In the 70's there were many people still around that drove these cars on a daily basis at some point in their life and many that may have bought one new. No so today so where do you find that kind of experienced person from whom you can extract that experience and knowledge??. Not likely locally more most so we turn to forums and youtube videos where the very few can reach the masses with their knowledge. JMO
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 11:48 AM   #49
kawagumby
Senior Member
 
kawagumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Hollister, CA
Posts: 127
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I see many Youtube videos as the modern equivalent of the do-it-yourself magazines of the sixties, only without the discipline of trained journalism. Just like when investigating medical articles on the internet, one needs to have developed a good background on the subject matter to begin with, or be lost to those who are only subject matter "pretenders".

Last edited by kawagumby; 12-30-2020 at 11:55 AM.
kawagumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 11:58 AM   #50
Licensed to kill
Senior Member
 
Licensed to kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
Northern California winters are hard to explain, not that cold when looking at a thermometer but those days when the low comes right out of Alaska, and the Tule fog rises up ..bone chilling is the best way to describe it,wet bone chilling cold..
My dad was born and raised on the prairies where -30 to -40 is common. In 1955 he moved to the coast (north of vancouver) and the first winter he almost froze. On the thermometer it only got to maybe -10C but it was a damp cold that went right through you and you can't dress for it. -30/-40 on the prairies is a dry cold and you just dress warm and can be outside all day long and be relatively comfortable.
Licensed to kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 12:10 PM   #51
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

What amuses me is those who think the mechanic trade can be imparted by videos or forums.Its truly a constantly evolving craft that does require an actual hands on apprentiship. In theory,a model a ford is a simple machine, in practice those without the basic apprentice level skills wont be effective at maintaining it.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 12:25 PM   #52
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
What amuses me is those who think the mechanic trade can be imparted by videos or forums.Its truly a constantly evolving craft that does require an actual hands on apprentiship. In theory,a model a ford is a simple machine, in practice those without the basic apprentice level skills wont be effective at maintaining it.
I guess what I'm saying is, you're not wrong that there's no substitute for in-person mentoring, but if you think that videos and forums have minimal value, then you're committed to the slow death of the hobby, because the number of people who are willing and able to engage in either side of that master/apprentice commitment is dropping all the time. If you want that tradition to continue, then what you should be doing is encouraging online engagement as the entry point of the hobby.

People can and should learn the basics of maintenance through whatever means is available to them. Those who decide to commit to the craft as an avocation can always decide to invest the time and energy required to do a hands-on apprenticeship, but increasingly you're not going to reach those people in the first place without a good online presence.
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 01:34 PM   #53
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 10,480
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Licensed to kill View Post
I see it the exact opposite. By that way of looking at it, why go to school to be a mechanic in the first place (as an example). Just learn by trial and error, problem solving by the seat of your pants right from the start. Just don't expect me to pay you to do that on my stuff. My son told me something several months ago that has turned out to be pretty much bang on. He said "you have to do things 3 times before you get it right". I have since been paying attention and that is pretty accurate for things I have never done before. I watch a couple of "how to" or FYI" video's pretty much every day. I installed a TV in my "coffee room" in my shop and at 9:00 and 3:00 most days I stop for a coffee and watch a video. Most are relevant to things I am doing at the time but others are just things that look interesting. I learn something from every single one of them and have noticed that my "problem solving skills" have improved profoundly since i have started watching these videos daily only a few months ago. I personally am grateful to those that take the time to share their knowledge in video.


I can't answer to that with any conviction as I was not into these cars 50 years ago. However, In all likelihood, there were a LOT more of these cars around to get parts from and to examine for information as well as, I suspect more people around with intimate knowledge of these cars to glean info from. In the 70's there were many people still around that drove these cars on a daily basis at some point in their life and many that may have bought one new. No so today so where do you find that kind of experienced person from whom you can extract that experience and knowledge??. Not likely locally more most so we turn to forums and youtube videos where the very few can reach the masses with their knowledge. JMO

You may have a point. Similar to your point though, this country's public education system in the year of 2020 has moved away from personal mentoring in a classroom setting, to teaching students the same curriculum via video where the instructor is located in a different location than the pupil. I think we will see first-hand in a couple of years how effective (-or non-effective) the student's learning via watching video truly was.

With regard to finding an experienced person to extract knowledge, my only response that I can give is based on my personal experiences. In my shop at the present time, we have several vehicles (-a 1937 Cord, a 1929 Marmon, a 1961 Mercedes, a 1909 Maxwell LD, 1917 Crane Simplex) in which there is not any YouTube videos to offer 'how to' tutorials. Even searching Google comes up empty on how to rebuild a Cord 810 FWD transmission, -or how to fabricate valve train parts for a Marmon 8 cylinder engine, -or how to make the structural wood for a 1909 Maxwell body. Therefore, the ONLY thing we can rely on in these circumstances is our problem solving skills. Using our brain to figure it out. We did not develop these skills overnight, -nor did we learn these skills from watching a video. Quite frankly, we learned them by restoring Model-A. Not replacing parts on Model-As but actually by restoring where we used learned elementary problem solving skills to springboard us into more difficult situations.

I will also say that I disagree with a person having to do a task 3 times to learn how to "do it right". I think that may be indicative of a person who lacks problem solving skills, but I can think of many tasks that I don't get a second chance to get it right. I am sure others have this same scenario facing them where they don't get a second chance to do it right.

.

__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 02:08 PM   #54
Brentwood Bob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: brentwood, ca
Posts: 3,456
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Filming my back, and stumbling for a word are my current issues. And a work area out of the brisk weather. It's still relatively fun to do. I look past the negative comments.
Brentwood Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 03:06 PM   #55
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I provide full customer support on specialized diesel and electric powered machines with an average retail price of 500k. Speed in problem solving and troubleshooting is paramount.At 150 per hour folks don't want to hear excuses,they demand results.
I dont concern myself with the "future of the hobby" ,personally I feel it takes a large amount of hubris to consider ones contribution as vital. I do find it amusing when someone unskilled in the trade has the temerity to video tape themselves performing tasks they are not fully vetted in.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 03:29 PM   #56
alexiskai
Senior Member
 
alexiskai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Mebane NC
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Shaft View Post
I provide full customer support on specialized diesel and electric powered machines with an average retail price of 500k. Speed in problem solving and troubleshooting is paramount.At 150 per hour folks don't want to hear excuses,they demand results.
I dont concern myself with the "future of the hobby" ,personally I feel it takes a large amount of hubris to consider ones contribution as vital. I do find it amusing when someone unskilled in the trade has the temerity to video tape themselves performing tasks they are not fully vetted in.
Who's vetting them? A railcar mover tech charging $150/hr? Or maybe someone else who treats his hobby as a weird extension of his job?
alexiskai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 03:42 PM   #57
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

You profess a desire to 'serve the hobby' in the interest of preservation,yet fail to possess the skills needed to do so..aint no thing to me,fire away..you are correct about the hobby/job intersection but wrong on your assumption.the model a initiated my desire to pursue a career as a technician..its clear by your posts btw,not my implication.
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 06:10 PM   #58
Bill G
Senior Member
 
Bill G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Walla Walla, WA
Posts: 877
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

One thing that annoys me about some videos is the way people move the camera (or phone) here, there, up, down back and forth..... Pretty soon I get frustrated and nearly dizzy. I exit out and move on. I guess some people just don't know how to film a moving video!
Bill G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 08:22 PM   #59
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

That whole 'hobby as an extension of your job'.. in hindsight, yes, you are correct, I am guilty of doing my hobby as a career. God, I love it too..in fact, most successful mechanics are car guys as well...we used to call them motorheads... imagine doing what you love as a living, then you are in my world..
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 08:39 PM   #60
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 4,425
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

An old friend that had a farm repair shop in the 50's had some small cards that he would hand to appropriate people on occasion. These were people that had tried to fix something, botched it and then brought it to him to fix.

The card said,"Go back to school and learn something that you can do from a bar stool or hammock. You have no aptitude for using tools".

Almost everyone that received a card came back as a customer without try to fix it first.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 09:24 PM   #61
Jack Shaft
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,196
Default Re: Ford Model A Camshaft Inspection and Evaluation

I tell the kiddies at the shop I'm institutionalized..been doing the trade so long I don't know any better..
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg images (1).jpeg (9.1 KB, 15 views)
Jack Shaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:26 PM.