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Old 06-02-2021, 05:39 PM   #1
Mister Moose
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Default Gremlins in the wiring

I'm quite electrically able, and this so far isn't making much sense.

I've had a few problems over the last several years with the car not turning over, and then later changing its mind. All by itself. You press the starter and nothing, no grunt, click, or sign of life. Then later it's fine.

Today it starts fine, go a few places, runs fine. Generator putting out about 6 amps. At the 2nd stop, when I went to start it cranked for about 1 second, then stopped. There was now nothing happening with the starter. I fiddled with the starter switch and re-attached it, nothing. I took a screwdriver and bridged from the copper stud on the starter to a ground looking for a spark, nothing. I then couldn't believe the battery was that dead, and tried the lights, nothing, didn't move the ammeter a hair. Unfortunately I didn't have a VOM with me, that's gonna change. The ammeter looked like -2.

So I flagged down a friendly guy with jumpers, and popped it right off. Car not only ran normal, I drove it 1,000 feet, did another errand (ever the gambler) , and then it started by itself normally. If the battery had been dead, there was no way I recharged it in 1,000 feet.

The battery terminals are tight and clean.

So what's going on???

If the starter has a dead spot, jumping it shouldn't make a difference.

If the starter switch has welded closed and drained the battery, it should have kept cranking instead of stopping dead.

If it's a bad ground, shouldn't it be consistent?

The starter-battery cable was new at the restoration, as was the braided ground cable. Maybe I got a bad one that is intermittent somehow.

Is there something internal in the starter that would explain this?

With a VOM on board I'll be able to do some more detective work next time it happens, but on the meantime has anyone else had a similar problem?
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:50 PM   #2
700rpm
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

I would look at the starter switch itself. Remove it, take it apart, and see if things look right. If it is a repro, they can be troublesome. I quit using them and now use only originals. While you have the switch off check the contact on the starter as well as the contact on the switch copper.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Check the crimp of the battery cables and the end fitting. Corrosion can get in there between the wire and the crimped collar. I fixed one by driving a nail in there to tighten things up. Good luck.
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Old 06-02-2021, 08:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Take all battery cable contacts apart, clean them up, and apply a copper bearing electrical grease. Make sure all connections are tight. Then take the starter switch apart, clean up the contacts and apply the same grease there. The copper bearing grease is available from McMaster Carr.

I would suggest to look at the starter too but you said that the lights are not functioning when this happens.

Take your voltmeter with you, as you indicated you will. Also, feel the cables to see if any of them are warm or hot. Do this when it is starting normally but leave the ignition off to allow any bad connections to heat up. Don't run the starter for more than 30 seconds.

As Jackson indicated it could be a bad crimp. West Marine has a crimper you can use to tighten things up. A warm or hot crimp will indicate a problem there. You can buy a crimp tool from McMaster Carr.
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Last edited by nkaminar; 06-02-2021 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 08:52 PM   #5
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Remove the battery ground cable from where it attaches to the frame. You will have to remove the floor board and the battery for better access. There is a raised section of the frame where the cable attaches. Use a disk sander to grind all the crud and corrosion off the frame\cable connection area. Wire wheel the end of the cable and the nut and the bolt. Do this every 10-15 years to provide a solid ground for the battery. This the most neglected electrical connection on a Model A because it is out of sight and hard to get to.

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Old 06-02-2021, 09:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

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Model A's are highly ground temperamental
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Old 06-04-2021, 07:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Also check the battery posts in case for loose contact in the battery itself. I had this problem once the post was broken inside the battery case but would make intermittent contact sometimes allowing it to start. Battery would charge and run car as long as didn’t have a high load on it .
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Old 06-05-2021, 08:56 AM   #8
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Moose View Post
I'm quite electrically able, and this so far isn't making much sense.

I've had a few problems over the last several years with the car not turning over, and then later changing its mind. All by itself. You press the starter and nothing, no grunt, click, or sign of life. Then later it's fine.

Today it starts fine, go a few places, runs fine. Generator putting out about 6 amps. At the 2nd stop, when I went to start it cranked for about 1 second, then stopped. There was now nothing happening with the starter. I fiddled with the starter switch and re-attached it, nothing. I took a screwdriver and bridged from the copper stud on the starter to a ground looking for a spark, nothing. I then couldn't believe the battery was that dead, and tried the lights, nothing, didn't move the ammeter a hair. Unfortunately I didn't have a VOM with me, that's gonna change. The ammeter looked like -2.

So I flagged down a friendly guy with jumpers, and popped it right off. Car not only ran normal, I drove it 1,000 feet, did another errand (ever the gambler) , and then it started by itself normally. If the battery had been dead, there was no way I recharged it in 1,000 feet.

The battery terminals are tight and clean.

So what's going on???

If the starter has a dead spot, jumping it shouldn't make a difference.

If the starter switch has welded closed and drained the battery, it should have kept cranking instead of stopping dead.

If it's a bad ground, shouldn't it be consistent?

The starter-battery cable was new at the restoration, as was the braided ground cable. Maybe I got a bad one that is intermittent somehow.

Is there something internal in the starter that would explain this?

With a VOM on board I'll be able to do some more detective work next time it happens, but on the meantime has anyone else had a similar problem?
Just how old is the battery?
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Old 06-06-2021, 08:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary WA View Post
Just how old is the battery?
It's about 4 years old, well maintained. The open voltage 24 hrs after a full charge was 6.33V, pretty acceptable. I can load test it, and when I finally remember to bring my specific gravity tester home I'll test that too.

As a test for ground issues, I took some 6ga battery cables, and hooked both to the ground post. I then hooked the other ends to the block. So I now had 2 cables in parallel duplicating the ground path. It did not crank any faster, and this car has always cranked a little slow.

The Gremlin is hiding.
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Old 06-06-2021, 09:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

I’m now thinking the answer to Gary’s question is the answer to the problem.
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Old 06-06-2021, 09:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Mister Moose, I hate those Gremlins. This, because it's intermittent, may take some time to solve, but it's just electricity and it follows the rules. The Gremlin will show itself (soon I hope).
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Old 06-07-2021, 07:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdmn852 View Post
Also check the battery posts in case for loose contact in the battery itself. I had this problem once the post was broken inside the battery case but would make intermittent contact sometimes allowing it to start. Battery would charge and run car as long as didn’t have a high load on it .
This would be a good explanation for the problem. Only way to verify for sure is swap the battery.
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Old 06-07-2021, 09:51 AM   #13
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

I would remove the battery and perform a load test! While doing the load test tap around the battery with a soft mallet. If there is something loose it might show up. A 4 year old battery might be sulfate problem. Also try another battery!
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Old 06-07-2021, 12:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

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Originally Posted by gdmn852 View Post
Also check the battery posts in case for loose contact in the battery itself. I had this problem once the post was broken inside the battery case but would make intermittent contact sometimes allowing it to start. Battery would charge and run car as long as didn’t have a high load on it .
Gotta be careful with an internal break. I was pulling a battery out of a Lincoln Town Car that I found out had an internal break after I jostled it a bit while pulling it out and it must have sparked internally and subsequently blew up

To be fair, half of the blame was on the trickle charger that they put on it that generated the hydrogen in the first place but still... not a fun day.

My money is on a bad battery cable connection. If those check out, bad battery. Does your car have any auxiliary ground off of the battery?
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:26 PM   #15
Billy 1931 Model A
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Default Re: Gremlins in the wiring

Mister Moose, my A does the exact same thing: intermittent, and my lights fail too. I'll have to double check the battery-to-ground cable, and the battery itself. My A has an aftermarket battery switch between the battery + and the frame, which needs checking too.
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