The Ford Barn

Joe KCMO · 11-27-2011, 07:32 PM

After rebuilding everything internal in my engine and installing the fuel pump pushrod, I think that it has too much play(sloppy). Will this have significant effect on oil pressure?

Is it possible to replace the fuel pump push rod bushing without taking the camshaft and all the valves again?

Still enjoying the build, but getting older but not a lot smarter. Should have replaced everything!!

Russ/40 · 11-27-2011, 07:51 PM

Most people will tell you it cannot be done in the car. They are being kind in trying to discourage you. I was not discouraged. I did it. It was not fun. It can be done though.
Here is how mine came out:

You need a very good quality tap, as the bushing is extremely hard. I put grease in the bushing to catch metal chips. You will need a tap extension. If I recall I used a 1/2" 20 thread tap. I took the hood off and put all my weight into the tap to get it to bite the bushing. Here is the puller arrangement I used

Now all that being said, the bushing is supposed to be sloppy. A half inch slop at the top of the rod as you rock it in the bushing is pretty normal. Think hard before you attempt the change. I'm stubborn, and would not take no far an answer, and, I , like you thought about it too late.

Joe KCMO · 11-27-2011, 08:00 PM

Russ,

I do not recognize the tap at the end of the threaded rod. It appears to be a socket head fine thread bolt in the second picture. In the first picture what is that on the black bolt appearing tap?

ken ct · 11-27-2011, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Most people will tell you it cannot be done in the car. They are being kind in trying to discourage you. I was not discouraged. I did it. It was not fun. It can be done though.
Here is how mine came out:

You need a very good quality tap, as the bushing is extremely hard. I put grease in the bushing to catch metal chips. You will need a tap extension. If I recall I used a 1/2" 20 thread tap. I took the hood off and put all my weight into the tap to get it to bite the bushing. Here is the puller arrangement I used

Now all that being said, the bushing is supposed to be sloppy. A half inch slop at the top of the rod as you rock it in the bushing is pretty normal. Think hard before you attempt the change. I'm stubborn, and would not take no far an answer, and, I , like you thought about it too late.

That looks like a bushing from a 8BA an later engine. Not the same as pre 48 ones which are pretty thin walled. They are all pretty sloppy,dont worry about it. ken ct.

Joe KCMO · 11-27-2011, 08:12 PM

Thankyou Ken,

You made my evening!!!

Binx · 11-27-2011, 08:38 PM

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I'll quote Ron Bishop's Book: "This is not critical, but wear of .020 inch or more will allow oil to escape from the main oil passage, making it very difficult to build up and/or maintain proper oil pressure."

Lonnie

flatjack9 · 11-27-2011, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binx

I'll quote Ron Bishop's Book: "This is not critical, but wear of .020 inch or more will allow oil to escape from the main oil passage, making it very difficult to build up and/or maintain proper oil pressure."

Lonnie

Can't believe everything you read. The pushrod can be removed without effecting oil pressure.

Joe KCMO · 11-27-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Can't believe everything you read. The pushrod can be removed without effecting oil pressure.

flatjack,

Are you saying that with a goodly amount of play in that bushing, I can still have good oil pressure 30# +.

flatjack9 · 11-27-2011, 09:11 PM

Your oil pressure will not be dependant on the fit of that bushing. Only way you can lose pressure is if there was a hole worn in the bushing. And I have never seen an engine where that bushing was worn out.

Jack E/NJ · 11-27-2011, 09:13 PM

ken ct>>>They are all pretty sloppy,dont worry about it.>>>

x2!

Jack E/NJ

Andy · 11-27-2011, 09:48 PM

The rear cam bearing is not pressure lubed. It just gets thrown oil out of the top of the oil pump and gears. There is no oil pressure to loose. Leave the bushing alone.

Walt Dupont--Me. · 11-27-2011, 09:52 PM

The 48 and older engine has a very thin wall bushing, It won't except a tap to make threds in it. The 8BA engine has a thicker bushing. I just built an older engine that someone just built and didn't have any oil pressure. They tryed to remove the bushing and broke off the top and bottom 1/2in. of the bushing and they must of ran a reamer down the hole and installed a new bushing. The middle piece of the old bushing was plugging the main oil line and that is why it didn't have any oil, preassure. I had the engine completly diassembled before I found the trouble. I made a driver on the lathe and drove the new bushing down into the cam brg. area. I really didn't even hurt the new bushing but I replaced it with a new one. I had quite a job removing the broken part of the old bushing. With the bushing in there there is no oil pressure in that hole. The only way it would loose oil pressure is if the bushing was worn through. And I have never seen one worn through. Don't worry about it if it's sloppy. Walt

Russ/40 · 11-28-2011, 12:03 AM

You never did tell us what engine you have. But, as I said above think long and hard before attempting the task. My experience was on an 8BA in my '49. I have never attempted an earlier bushing. I believe what others say that the earlier bushing cannot be pulled as they are too thin. Heed their advice and run it the way it is. As long as your not eating up rods it won't hurt anything. My '49 was wearing the rods badly on the sides of the rod.
I think it is truly rare to need to replace the bushing. I have a very early block that doesn't even have a bushing and the wear in the casting is negligible.

JWL · 11-28-2011, 06:25 AM

What is a questioner to learn from this? Be selective.

Walt Dupont--Me. · 11-28-2011, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ/40

You never did tell us what engine you have. But, as I said above think long and hard before attempting the task. My experience was on an 8BA in my '49. I have never attempted an earlier bushing. I believe what others say that the earlier bushing cannot be pulled as they are too thin. Heed their advice and run it the way it is. As long as your not eating up rods it won't hurt anything. My '49 was wearing the rods badly on the sides of the rod.
I think it is truly rare to need to replace the bushing. I have a very early block that doesn't even have a bushing and the wear in the casting is negligible.

Your right Russ, the very early 8BA that came out in the 48 pickups didn't have any pump rod bushing. Walt

Ol' Ron · 11-28-2011, 09:12 AM

Somebody deserves an ATTA BOY!! here. However you don't loose oil pressure by removing the fuel pump push rod. Bit you could make a mess.

Russ/40 · 11-28-2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWL

What is a questioner to learn from this? Be selective.

Joe KCMO · 11-28-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWL

What is a questioner to learn from this? Be selective.

I was the original questioner and I believe that I learned from this thread. Anyone who searches this question in the future will also benefit.

JWL · 11-28-2011, 12:40 PM

Well, let's take an objective look--- there were 9 posts from "helpers" prior to my commenting about being "selective".

3 are wrong or of questioable relevance. Not a good average.

It is good that the actual helpful information provided comfort.

Karl Wolf · 11-28-2011, 01:51 PM

As an adendum to this thread, I note that the bushing can be pushed in, and removed... If you have the cam out... I do this so that I can clean out the oil gallery with a brush... Then put the same one back in...
I also have saved the bushings from blocks that I have scrapped. The only new one I've ever bought was made of aluminum, and worse than the old one...
Karl

bbrocksr · 11-28-2011, 01:51 PM

Lets not be critical, Seems like everybody was happy but you.
Bill

flatjack9 · 11-28-2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Wolf

As an adendum to this thread, I note that the bushing can be pushed in, and removed... If you have the cam out... I do this so that I can clean out the oil gallery with a brush... Then put the same one back in...
I also have saved the bushings from blocks that I have scrapped. The only new one I've ever bought was made of aluminum, and worse than the old one...
Karl

Right, this should be routine for proper cleaning when building an engine.

Bruce Lancaster · 11-28-2011, 07:55 PM

This is one of the BIG advantages of the internet...you can immediately get 15 or 20 great and totally different answers to any tech question!
A Ford manual will only get you one...what a rip!
No wonder no one reads books any more!
Note that some people on here are a kind of gold standard. There are a number of real gurus here, but Ron has built more flatheads than most of us have seen, experimenting and documenting along the way, and that anything JWL has ever said is backed by blueprints, sectioned engine blocks, 15 dyno runs, and exhaustive flow work...

flatjack9 · 11-28-2011, 08:36 PM

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

Ol' Ron · 03-11-2013, 08:31 PM

Yes, after you knock the can bearings out, Knock the bushing out.

Binx · 03-11-2013, 09:12 PM

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Hold on here fellas, this is an old thread. Here is the one that talks about the oil pressure test with and without the push rod.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99948

mike42 · 03-12-2013, 03:16 AM

Man this is confusing ! So......with my '40 85 hp.....would it be better to install the rod and pump ? I'm only using the electric at this point with a block off plate where the original pump would mount.

Thx....Mike

51 MERC-CT · 03-12-2013, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike42

Man this is confusing ! So......with my '40 85 hp.....would it be better to install the rod and pump ? I'm only using the electric at this point with a block off plate where the original pump would mount.

Thx....Mike

Without the plug you may or may not get excess oil misting in the valve spring chamber.
If I were doing it, I would install the original fuel pump arrangement and if you don't trust it, install an electric (seperate switched) fuel pump forward of the tank to be used just in case.

mike42 · 03-12-2013, 05:47 AM

ok 51.....I had so many problems before and now it runs so good I hated to change it back to original pump, but if it's going to spray a mist around or not give proper lube to rest of the engine I'll put the regular pump on. Thx....

Mike

harley · 03-12-2013, 07:05 AM

Mike 42, The 40 does not have the orifice in the bushing, no mist, no problem.

mike42 · 03-12-2013, 07:35 AM

ok...thx !

51 MERC-CT · 03-12-2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley

Mike 42, The 40 does not have the orifice in the bushing, no mist, no problem.

And what about the hole in the cam bearing?

19Fordy · 03-12-2013, 08:35 AM

If you do a Fordbarn search for " Fuel Pump Push Rod" tons of info. appears that IS worth reading.

PhoenixFear · 04-17-2013, 08:22 PM

I was wondering about this recently as for the most part I wanted to go with an electric pump. However I think I'll stick with a regular fuel pump for now. I just rebuilt the whole engine and of course forgot about this bushing. The 8BA fuel pump push rods seem to be very hard to find at this time, but I have a good used one I found. I think it has some play with the bushing in the block now but the machinist who did the block said he hasn't had a need to replace that bushing. I have a new bushing but from reading this thread I am on the fence about replacing it. I'll probably leave it alone.

Mac VP · 04-18-2013, 05:34 AM

One reason for removing the bushing hadn't been mentioned. If you're having the block acid dipped prior to a rebuild, ALL soft metals must be removed. I suppose the chemicals would simply eat up the pre 49 bushings which are made of brass. Safer to simply knock it out. Same for the cam bearings, rear seal retainers, block drain plugs, etc.

Russ/40 · 04-18-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixFear

I was wondering about this recently as for the most part I wanted to go with an electric pump. However I think I'll stick with a regular fuel pump for now. I just rebuilt the whole engine and of course forgot about this bushing. The 8BA fuel pump push rods seem to be very hard to find at this time, but I have a good used one I found. I think it has some play with the bushing in the block now but the machinist who did the block said he hasn't had a need to replace that bushing. I have a new bushing but from reading this thread I am on the fence about replacing it. I'll probably leave it alone.

There is supposed to be considerable play. The only true indication of need to replace, I have seen, is rapid extreme wear on the sides of the push rod.

PhoenixFear · 04-18-2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ/40

There is supposed to be considerable play. The only true indication of need to replace, I have seen, is rapid extreme wear on the sides of the push rod.

That's what I was told as well, so as not to "lock up" the push rod when running. I checked my push rod and inserted it into a new bushing I bought and it is a very small amount of play. Thanks.

woodypecker · 04-18-2013, 09:07 PM

I have a new pushrod in an old bushing in an 8ba and it has just a little slop and very good oil pressure.

Russ/40 · 04-18-2013, 09:34 PM

Keep in mind, the bushing supports the very bottom portion of the rod. Put a bushing in a vice gently, insert a pushrod just beyond the end of the bushing. Now from the top of the rod, move it back and forth. You will have quite a bit of movement.

11-27-2011, 07:32 PM	#1
Joe KCMO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 423	Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing After rebuilding everything internal in my engine and installing the fuel pump pushrod, I think that it has too much play(sloppy). Will this have significant effect on oil pressure? Is it possible to replace the fuel pump push rod bushing without taking the camshaft and all the valves again? Still enjoying the build, but getting older but not a lot smarter. Should have replaced everything!! Last edited by Joe KCMO; 11-28-2011 at 10:14 PM.

11-27-2011, 07:51 PM	#2
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Most people will tell you it cannot be done in the car. They are being kind in trying to discourage you. I was not discouraged. I did it. It was not fun. It can be done though. Here is how mine came out: You need a very good quality tap, as the bushing is extremely hard. I put grease in the bushing to catch metal chips. You will need a tap extension. If I recall I used a 1/2" 20 thread tap. I took the hood off and put all my weight into the tap to get it to bite the bushing. Here is the puller arrangement I used Now all that being said, the bushing is supposed to be sloppy. A half inch slop at the top of the rod as you rock it in the bushing is pretty normal. Think hard before you attempt the change. I'm stubborn, and would not take no far an answer, and, I , like you thought about it too late.

11-27-2011, 08:00 PM	#3
Joe KCMO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 423	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Russ, I do not recognize the tap at the end of the threaded rod. It appears to be a socket head fine thread bolt in the second picture. In the first picture what is that on the black bolt appearing tap?

11-27-2011, 08:12 PM	#5
Joe KCMO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 423	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Thankyou Ken, You made my evening!!!

11-27-2011, 08:38 PM	#6
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I'll quote Ron Bishop's Book: "This is not critical, but wear of .020 inch or more will allow oil to escape from the main oil passage, making it very difficult to build up and/or maintain proper oil pressure." Lonnie

11-27-2011, 09:11 PM	#9
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Your oil pressure will not be dependant on the fit of that bushing. Only way you can lose pressure is if there was a hole worn in the bushing. And I have never seen an engine where that bushing was worn out.

11-27-2011, 09:13 PM	#10
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing ken ct>>>They are all pretty sloppy,dont worry about it.>>> x2! Jack E/NJ

11-27-2011, 09:48 PM	#11
Andy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kerrville, Tx Posts: 2,769	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing The rear cam bearing is not pressure lubed. It just gets thrown oil out of the top of the oil pump and gears. There is no oil pressure to loose. Leave the bushing alone.

11-27-2011, 09:52 PM	#12
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing The 48 and older engine has a very thin wall bushing, It won't except a tap to make threds in it. The 8BA engine has a thicker bushing. I just built an older engine that someone just built and didn't have any oil pressure. They tryed to remove the bushing and broke off the top and bottom 1/2in. of the bushing and they must of ran a reamer down the hole and installed a new bushing. The middle piece of the old bushing was plugging the main oil line and that is why it didn't have any oil, preassure. I had the engine completly diassembled before I found the trouble. I made a driver on the lathe and drove the new bushing down into the cam brg. area. I really didn't even hurt the new bushing but I replaced it with a new one. I had quite a job removing the broken part of the old bushing. With the bushing in there there is no oil pressure in that hole. The only way it would loose oil pressure is if the bushing was worn through. And I have never seen one worn through. Don't worry about it if it's sloppy. Walt

11-28-2011, 12:03 AM	#13
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing You never did tell us what engine you have. But, as I said above think long and hard before attempting the task. My experience was on an 8BA in my '49. I have never attempted an earlier bushing. I believe what others say that the earlier bushing cannot be pulled as they are too thin. Heed their advice and run it the way it is. As long as your not eating up rods it won't hurt anything. My '49 was wearing the rods badly on the sides of the rod. I think it is truly rare to need to replace the bushing. I have a very early block that doesn't even have a bushing and the wear in the casting is negligible.

11-28-2011, 06:25 AM	#14
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing What is a questioner to learn from this? Be selective.

11-28-2011, 09:12 AM	#16
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Somebody deserves an ATTA BOY!! here. However you don't loose oil pressure by removing the fuel pump push rod. Bit you could make a mess.

11-28-2011, 12:40 PM	#19
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Well, let's take an objective look--- there were 9 posts from "helpers" prior to my commenting about being "selective". 3 are wrong or of questioable relevance. Not a good average. It is good that the actual helpful information provided comfort.

11-28-2011, 01:51 PM	#20
Karl Wolf Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mill Valley,Ca. Posts: 1,509	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing As an adendum to this thread, I note that the bushing can be pushed in, and removed... If you have the cam out... I do this so that I can clean out the oil gallery with a brush... Then put the same one back in... I also have saved the bushings from blocks that I have scrapped. The only new one I've ever bought was made of aluminum, and worse than the old one... Karl

11-28-2011, 01:51 PM	#21
bbrocksr Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Yakima Washington Posts: 913	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Lets not be critical, Seems like everybody was happy but you. Bill

11-28-2011, 07:55 PM	#23
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing This is one of the BIG advantages of the internet...you can immediately get 15 or 20 great and totally different answers to any tech question! A Ford manual will only get you one...what a rip! No wonder no one reads books any more! Note that some people on here are a kind of gold standard. There are a number of real gurus here, but Ron has built more flatheads than most of us have seen, experimenting and documenting along the way, and that anything JWL has ever said is backed by blueprints, sectioned engine blocks, 15 dyno runs, and exhaustive flow work...

11-28-2011, 08:36 PM	#24
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Well said! I couldn't agree more.

03-11-2013, 08:31 PM	#25
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Yes, after you knock the can bearings out, Knock the bushing out.

03-11-2013, 09:12 PM	#26
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Hold on here fellas, this is an old thread. Here is the one that talks about the oil pressure test with and without the push rod. https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99948

03-12-2013, 03:16 AM	#27
mike42 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Gaylord, Michigan Posts: 1,605	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Man this is confusing ! So......with my '40 85 hp.....would it be better to install the rod and pump ? I'm only using the electric at this point with a block off plate where the original pump would mount. Thx....Mike

03-12-2013, 05:47 AM	#29
mike42 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Gaylord, Michigan Posts: 1,605	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing ok 51.....I had so many problems before and now it runs so good I hated to change it back to original pump, but if it's going to spray a mist around or not give proper lube to rest of the engine I'll put the regular pump on. Thx.... Mike

03-12-2013, 07:05 AM	#30
harley Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Ouachita County Arkansas Posts: 59	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Mike 42, The 40 does not have the orifice in the bushing, no mist, no problem. __________________ people have more trouble than anybody

03-12-2013, 07:35 AM	#31
mike42 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Gaylord, Michigan Posts: 1,605	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing ok...thx !

03-12-2013, 08:35 AM	#33
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,942	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing If you do a Fordbarn search for " Fuel Pump Push Rod" tons of info. appears that IS worth reading.

04-17-2013, 08:22 PM	#34
PhoenixFear Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Utica, MI Posts: 361	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing I was wondering about this recently as for the most part I wanted to go with an electric pump. However I think I'll stick with a regular fuel pump for now. I just rebuilt the whole engine and of course forgot about this bushing. The 8BA fuel pump push rods seem to be very hard to find at this time, but I have a good used one I found. I think it has some play with the bushing in the block now but the machinist who did the block said he hasn't had a need to replace that bushing. I have a new bushing but from reading this thread I am on the fence about replacing it. I'll probably leave it alone.

04-18-2013, 05:34 AM	#35
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing One reason for removing the bushing hadn't been mentioned. If you're having the block acid dipped prior to a rebuild, ALL soft metals must be removed. I suppose the chemicals would simply eat up the pre 49 bushings which are made of brass. Safer to simply knock it out. Same for the cam bearings, rear seal retainers, block drain plugs, etc. __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

04-18-2013, 09:07 PM	#38
woodypecker Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Clarkston, Michigan Posts: 239	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing I have a new pushrod in an old bushing in an 8ba and it has just a little slop and very good oil pressure.

04-18-2013, 09:34 PM	#39
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Fuel Pump Push Rod Bushing Keep in mind, the bushing supports the very bottom portion of the rod. Put a bushing in a vice gently, insert a pushrod just beyond the end of the bushing. Now from the top of the rod, move it back and forth. You will have quite a bit of movement.