New Engine QA and Paul Shinn's Concerns

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Fhane

We have beat the “bad” vender to death on this and other forums.

Now the Burtz engine comes into production after years of design, testing and money spent. It has been road tested, assembled by experts and novices alike. I have heard nothing but praise for the engine except for the crank run out by the reporter.

Now the reporter comes along, observes run out on the crank and claims it is unacceptable. The builder and the reporter agree on a third party to investigate. Third party says engine is in spec. Reporter will not respond. Some of the forum contributors want the subject dropped.

Will we ever find out from the reporter what really happened?

Will we miss the Burtz engine if the builder gets disgusted and quits building the engines?

Don’t you guys want to get to the bottom of this? I do.

If the reporter can’t respond maybe he is not a reporter but rather a pot stirrer.

Given the subtle hostility that this post demonstrates, I don't find it at all surprising that Mr. Shinn does not wish to post the results here. Over the course of the last several months this subject has gone from an apparently legitimate question of quality control to attacks on the individuals involved.

I did not see the initial video showing Mr. Shinn's concerns so I cannot comment on it. Whether that was the proper forum or not to raise the question is not under discussion. Regardless of that, a path forward involving a third party inspector was agreed upon by John Lampl (representing the manufacturer) and Mr. Shinn, it was followed, and the results made known here by Mr. Lampl (and I thank you for that). We all can draw our own conclusions.

But to describe Paul Shinn as "pot stirrer" is out of line both on the face of it and as a discussion item. Mr. Shinn has been the President of his local MAFCA chapter, President of the Northern California Regional Group of MAFCA, and continues to produce videos helpful to Model A buffs everywhere. I cannot think of anyone who is more dedicated to the Model A hobby, especially as to how we engage the next generation, than he is. I don't know him personally but I've heard him speak on several occasions, and he seems in person just like his videos portray him - a genuinely nice guy.

If you want to discuss the issue (quality of the Burtz engine), fine. But let's knock off making it personal. That demeans everyone and makes this forum sound like Twitter.

My $0.02 as a grumpy old man.

JayJay

[GeneBob]

I really wanted to see the original video to hear what the original statements were. I was disappointed that an off-hand comment was made in poor taste regarding the original video. I would like to know Paul's response to the 3rd party inspection. I would really like to see Paul Shinn and J. Lampl or Terry Burtz (whoever made the comment about the beer) admit their errors (as appropriate) and put this whole thing in rear view mirror. There seems to be a lot of success stories with this engine and there is definitely a lot of trust in Paul.

[brokenspoke]

It appears to me that the ball is in Pauls court

[old31]

Jay Jay, very well said.

[nkaminar]

Not Paul's fault. He just picked the wrong person to do the initial inspection of the parts. Seems that has been resolved by finding a better shop. I put my Burtz engine together without problems and it runs great. I hope the production of these engine continues and I would like to see the same treatment for the Model T, although not as high priority as the Model A because of the way Model T cars are used.

[Bob Bidonde]

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nkaminar! Thanks for your post. It's a breath of fresh air re the Burtz engine. It should put this topic to bed I hope.

[ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Not Paul's fault. He just picked the wrong person to do the initial inspection of the parts. Seems that has been resolved by finding a better shop. I put my Burtz engine together without problems and it runs great. I hope the production of these engine continues and I would like to see the same treatment for the Model T, although not as high priority as the Model A because of the way Model T cars are used.

I am in total agreement. Thanks for stating it so clearly and succinctly!!!

[LeonardS]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Not Paul's fault. He just picked the wrong person to do the initial inspection of the parts. Seems that has been resolved by finding a better shop. I put my Burtz engine together without problems and it runs great. I hope the production of these engine continues and I would like to see the same treatment for the Model T, although not as high priority as the Model A because of the way Model T cars are used.

I disagree. Paul has some fault for posting the results without double checking them or checking with Burtz engines to see what their thoughts were. He went ahead and started this mess and now is not going to apologize. Time for him to man-up and let the Model A community know that the results he posted were incorrect. Absolutely he has fault.

[Herb Concord Ca]

I agree with LeonardS. Paul should have discussed his results with Terry Burtz first, before posting his video. He owes Terry Burtz and the Model A community an apology.

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by LeonardS

I disagree. Paul has some fault for posting the results without double checking them or checking with Burtz engines to see what their thoughts were. He went ahead and started this mess and now is not going to apologize. Time for him to man-up and let the Model A community know that the results he posted were incorrect. Absolutely he has fault.

I totally agree,

Paul is held in very high regard as a Model A "expert" by many in the hobby.

Paul posted a video which made some very disparaging remarks about the Burtz engine. His machinist pointed out many "faults" that would require several thousands of dollars to correct before these engines could be used. These "faults" were not at all consistent with the experience of other builders who collectively had assembled well over a hundred of these engines with very good results. Several of us questioned the methods that Paul's mechanist was using to make these measurements and arriving at his conclusions. Paul failed to do additional investigation or even contact Terry Burtz before he posted his video.

Terry suggested the 2 engine kits in Paul's possession be taken to an agreed upon qualified third party for re-evaluation, the results of which (good or bad) would be posted for all to see. Paul agreed to this and also agreed to the person to do the re-inspection. The results of the re-inspection did not at all support the "findings" of Paul's original machinist.

Paul needs to apologize to Terry and the Model A Community for his "mistake" in posting such a video before being sure that the information was correct. I do not think Paul did this intentionally, he just picked the wrong mechanist.

Terry Burtz went to great lengths to defend the quality of his product. Terry was willing to have a third party evaluate the 2 engine kits in question and have the results of this inspection posted for all to see.

It is now up to Paul to publicly recognize he made a mistake. Even a Model A "expert" is not immune from making a mistake but in order for Paul to retain his credibility, he really needs to acknowledge this mistake.

Paul started this mess, and it is about time Paul steps up and puts this to bed.

Chris W.

[P.S.]

All I'm going to say- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAq...ature=youtu.be

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

............... I hope the production of these engine continues and I would like to see the same treatment for the Model T.............

I'd go one step farther and say I'd like to see Terry Burtz get new block castings of the 59AB Flathead also

Lots of these little buggers running around with cracked blocks! I think there would be a good demand for them just like Model A but I realize the casting work on these would be a nightmare. They could take the place of the earlier Flatheads heck everybody wants the 239 cube 24 stud Flattie anyway!

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by P.S.

All I'm going to say- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAq...ature=youtu.be

[nkaminar]

Paul, Thanks for letting us see that video.

I am trying to think of why the crank in the video would have a "tight" spot but then revolve freely past that location. The only thing I can think of is the type of lubrication used for assembly. Or one tab on the insert bearings not fitting correctly. The clearance measurements published above all look good. If it was my engine I would build it as is after checking to see if the tabs fit well.

I don't think a "quick pass" with a line hone is a good idea, especially if the bearings are installed. The Babbett is very thin on the insert bearings.

Was assembly lube used? Was the crank runout checked with the end journals supported on V blocks?

One note: My hearing is very bad and it is hard for me to follow the conversation in the video. So it is very likely that I missed something.

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by P.S.

All I'm going to say- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAq...ature=youtu.be

Paul, why not post the entire original video so everyone can see what started this whole thing? Just posting one small segment does not give the whole story.

I saw the original video before you took it down, and it gave a much different impression than what you have posted here.

Chris W.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Paul, Thanks for letting us see that video.

I am trying to think of why the crank in the video would have a "tight" spot but then revolve freely past that location. The only thing I can think of is the type of lubrication used for assembly. Or one tab on the insert bearings not fitting correctly.

I think Tim McMaster would know if a bearing tab was not fitting properly. After all, he does own/drive the "World's Fastest Y-Block in the World at Bonneville.

[LeonardS]

There was a lot more said and insinuated by Paul than that short video shows. Way to try and make yourself look like a victim. It didn’t work.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by P.S.

All I'm going to say- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAq...ature=youtu.be

Experienced builders file the corners of the bearing inserts where they are close to the studs at #1 and #3 main bearings. I’ve seen similar situations of this having happened.

“If we just ran a hone through it a couple quick passes” … NO. Inspect if there is a question in how it feels. Take loose main bearing cap one at a time until it is found which main bearing may be cause for concern.

[Big hammer]

When I was watching the video and saw the tightness, I thought why not one at a time remove the bearings too find which bearing is tight, then proceed with an adjustment. We are loosing good machinist/mechanic every day, so many tips and tricks are being lost !

[jack backer]

Huh, I’ll be damned..he flaked? who would have thunk it.. say it ain’t so🙄