found a good deal on a 1929

[duffer]

I went to a buddy's barn up north and he has a 1929 model a he wants to sell. He said i can have it for 2000.00. I took a picture of the engine number and the photo is here. I've never seen one like this.What do you think.

[Bob C]

A1, Does it stand for April 1

[2935ford]

possibly a re stamp?

[Bob Johnson]

Here is a picture showing a 1931 engine number pad and the one on the car you found. It looks like the pad is about 2" wide.

Bob

[ctlikon0712]

Ya know.... with it having the short stamp pad, seeing the early 28 wire harness tube, and the authentic stars makes me think that there is something to this one. The stamp pad has a casting surface to it also so it hasn't been resurfaced.... Hopefully someone like Pluck or one of the others who know more will chime in...

[James Rogers]

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That would be the find of a lifetime. It looks authentic but, I would like to see more of the motor and car before making a judgement.

[1931 flamingo]

For 2k how can you go wrong? Part it out. JMO
Paul in CT

[Fred]

I would have taken it with me, NO ??? ASKED !!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Look at the head nuts.

[duffer]

It actually was a 1928.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by duffer

It actually was a 1928.

Duffer...

Can you verify the LENGTH of the Engine Number Pad?

If it is what it "appears" to be...then there are several other items on the engine block to substanuate, if in fact, it is the real and genuine "*A1*", as Mr. Jim Rogers said above...You have the find of a lifetime/century if it is the genuine thing!

(If this is someone's idea of a "joke"...as I said, there are several things that can possibably date this block in a certain time period to prove or disprove this very interesting block...I am hoping, as we all are, that this is the real deal!).

HOWEVER...A1 should be on the first style of engine number pads and not the rectangular shaped pads...

HOWEVER...We also know that Henry Ford, and a few others, are shown in a photo stamping A1 on an engine and this particular engine has the rectangualr pad as you have.

Can someone post that photo please?

Again...what is the LENGTH of the pad itself?

Pluck

[Bob Johnson]

Here is a picture of the A1 engine. It is not a real good copy but you can make out the pad.

Bob

[Steve Plucker]

Thanks Robert for posting the photo...But wasn't (or isn't) there another one showing Henry stamping the engine?

What are some thoughts on the stamping of "*A1*" on the rectangular pad thus the photo? I have my thoughts...what are yours?

My thoughts are on the photo is that Henry Ford wanted to "capture" the moment of stamping Model A engine #1. However he really couldn't because it was already stamped back on (or before) October 20, 1927 on the first style of engine stamping pad (this is when the engine was sent to Finial Assembly). Now these blocks had already been casted...almost 616-632 of them (suposedly), the last being stamped on November 17, 1927 (suposedly).

NOW, here is where it gets interesting (and confusing)...according to the engine block Part Release #3463, it was on October 12, 1927 that Ford made a change in the location of the pad...“Moved pad for engine number to top of block and reduced size"...We do not know just when this "move" actually occured but if I remember correctly, the photo with a date on the stamping may tell us...and the date on the photo is infact October 20, 1927 (Thanks again Robert!)

So even those first blocks with the first style engine number pad were set in motion to be assembled to be put into those first Model A's on October 20, 1927, FORD was already casting the "new" style block, the one with the rectangualr pad on about October 20, 1927 also...Thus the dated photo...thus the rectangular engine number pad block.

I hope this makes sence! Hmmmmmmmm.

Pluck

[Bob Johnson]

Steve,

Yes but does not show the pad very well

Bob

[Fred]

Duffer now says it was a 1928, Should be a real early one ?? Unless changed over the years... Would be nice to see a few more pictures & one of body rail #s..

[Arcieri]

In the picture Pluck is referring to , I believe Henry has his stamp high on the pad and to the left, just like the OP has shown. Can't find a really good picture though.

However, in the various videos on the Web the still shots of the pad show only a 1 and no stars or A. The 1 is perfectly centered. Henry is not in the photos of that pad.

Ray

[Arcieri]

OK, posted before I saw Bob Johnson's picture showing the pad centered with the head stud. Looks more like Henry was centered left to right. However, it still looks like he is high on the pad.

Ray

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Arcieri

OK, posted before I saw Bob Johnson's picture showing the pad centered with the head stud. Looks more like Henry was centered left to right. However, it still looks like he is high on the pad.

Ray

He is high on the pad, & the A1 show that on the pad also..

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Here is a picture of the head nuts on an early engine that I have, with a new one beside it. The head nuts could be changed, and as well the studs. I would some more proof to authenticate this as # A1

[Mike V. Florida]

A) Buy the car!
B) Investigate the engine number.

The early engines had a 5 bearing cam did they not? This could be used to help date the engine block. Plucks site has a great amount of information about blocks, too much to repost here.

[Mike V. Florida]

I don't have the judging manual manual in from of me, what does the top of the one look like? I thought (most likley wrong) the top on the one was shorter and straighter than the one shown here.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

A) Buy the car!
B) Investigate the engine number.

The early engines had a 5 bearing cam did they not? This could be used to help date the engine block. Plucks site has a great amount of information about blocks, too much to repost here.

Yes they did...BUT there are some other early features, internal features, that one would have to check.

If this is truly what it appears to be, then:

1. Boss for breather pipe should be 20 degrees and not 22 degrees;
2. There should be a 1 inch dimension at the bottom of the cylinder...not a 2-1/2 inch dimension (Not sure just what this means...would have to look at the drawings);
3. There should be a 23/32 inch dimension locating hole for the oil pump dowl not a 0.713-0.723 dimension locating hole.

The upper features, which were recorded on the Part Releases were what the engine apparently started out with. FORD revised them on October 26, 1927 with Part Release # 4037. So if this is THE ENGINE...it should have the upper three features!

I wouldn't begin to know just how to check them.

Also, the boss around the front camshaft should be 2-1/16 inch diameter. It was changed to 2-3/8 inch diameter on December 5, 1927.

Also, is there a large gap (baffle is less than 1/2 the hole) or a small gap (baffle is more than 1/2 the hole) concerning the water inlet port baffle?

Pluck

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I don't have the judging manual manual in from of me, what does the top of the one look like? I thought (most likley wrong) the top on the one was shorter and straighter than the one shown here.

Looks the same to me...tried to post the example but could not.

Pluck

[Roadster62]

Great find! I'm no expert, just passing along the info I remember reading in a Clymer book published in 1959. Maybe Ford sold it in one of the Greenfield Village cleanouts in the 1970's? Bob

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

Yes they did...BUT there are some other early features, internal features, that one would have to check.


Pluck

That's why I mentioned you!

[Gumpy]

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sounds like a great buy for 2k i would investigate the number later:: the question is do you like the car? gump

[James Rogers]

Should be no oil return tube and dipper tray installed with screws. The boss for the throttle should be 2 round bosses not a solid flat boss. These are external indicators the oil tube being the most telling since there would be no way to remove the block location.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Should be no oil return tube and dipper tray installed with screws. The boss for the throttle should be 2 round bosses not a solid flat boss. These are external indicators the oil tube being the most telling since there would be no way to remove the block location.

James,

I am confused here...This did not happen until July 1928 with those "special experimental blocks" through October 1928. Am I missing something? Only about 1355 of those were produced.

As far as I know...there has always been an external oil return tube except as above.

Please enlighten me/us!

HOWEVER...It is the block itself that needs answers on...other things could of been "replaced" over the years not giving us a true ID.

Thanks Jim.

Pluck

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I don't have the judging manual manual in from of me, what does the top of the one look like? I thought (most likley wrong) the top on the one was shorter and straighter than the one shown here.

Mike....here you go....Dudley

[d.j. moordigian]

I guess I have a few questions and comments.... so what else is new.

1. I'd like too see a rule on the pad.
2. Need too look inside the block.
3. Were the "service repair engines" shipped with a serial number.
4. Forget looking at the # 1.....look at the font of the "A"....the feet.

Dudley

[MikeK]

In the photo of Henry posing with the stamp he is holding it ever so slightly back-handed- with a tilt to the left. The number stamped on the block in question also shows a backhand inclination. Coincidence?

Whatever became of the phaeton that supposedly received engine #1 and was to be sent to Edsel?

[Dick Deegan]

Yes, I have two 1928 engines and they both have 5 bearing cams.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Whatever became of the phaeton that supposedly received engine #1 and was to be sent to Edsel?

I thought it was "rebodied" as a Tudor...

[Brad in Germany]

Y'all need to go to the grand opening of the new Model A Ford Museum @ The Gilmore Museum, Hickory Corners, MI on Saturday, May 18, 2013 and check out Model A #1 in person and confirm what engine is in it.

The museum has Model A #1 (on loan from The Henry Ford Museum) and it will be on display for all to see (after sitting many years out of sight in storage).

http://gilmorecarmuseum.org/html/eve...id=65&nav_id=5

Fordially,
Brad in Maryland

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Mike....here you go....Dudley

I scaled both the engine pads of Duffers' and Dudleys' pics. I found the 'A' to represent 8.5% of the length of each pad, so both pads are 2.75 inches. The thing I find quite interesting is the slant of the two stars. I have never seen them looking almost like quotation, or accentuation marks. Has anyone else every seen that?

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Buy the car, for a few bucks you can have the engine pad x-rayed. That will tell you if the stamp is original.

[duffer]

OK, you all are gonna be sore at me but, let me explain. I went to the Gilmore Car museum over the weekend and they had Thomas Edison's car there..I was standing there looking at it and one of the gentleman getting the place ready for opening day asked me if i had a Model A . i said yes and showed him a picture of my car ( i carry in my wallet). then he asked if i was a member of any clubs, i told him i am on line with the ford barn.. He asked to see my camera and went closer to the car than i would be able to and took the pictures i posted. He said see how much your club guys know about history and told me what to tell you all . I have to say that" Brad in Germany "and "mot" ( by Private Message ) got it right. He said you guys would probably wet your pants over these pictures...the actual car A-1 is there and it was really great for me to see the car that Henry gave to Edison . The whole museum is looking really nice. Sorry about the prank.
I was set up to do it.

[duffer]

Almost done.

[MNFATS]

You are about a month late with your April fools shenanigans.

[robw]

and in penance you are going to show the rest of the pictures?!?!?!?!?

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

James,

I am confused here...This did not happen until July 1928 with those "special experimental blocks" through October 1928. Am I missing something? Only about 1355 of those were produced.

As far as I know...there has always been an external oil return tube except as above.

Please enlighten me/us!

HOWEVER...It is the block itself that needs answers on...other things could of been "replaced" over the years not giving us a true ID.

Thanks Jim.

Pluck

Pluck, I was under the impression that the first approx 20000 motors had no tube and mimiced the Model T engine which had none. I am probably wrongon this account but the boss for the throttle would have definately been 2 round individual bosses. I also don't know about the oil pan/dipper tray arrangement but I believe the first motors had a cad plated pan with the tray screwed on.

[Kirby1374]

Originally Posted by duffer

OK, you all are gonna be sore at me but, let me explain. I went to the Gilmore Car museum over the weekend and they had Thomas Edison's car there..I was standing there looking at it and one of the gentleman getting the place ready for opening day asked me if i had a Model A . i said yes and showed him a picture of my car ( i carry in my wallet). then he asked if i was a member of any clubs, i told him i am on line with the ford barn.. He asked to see my camera and went closer to the car than i would be able to and took the pictures i posted. He said see how much your club guys know about history and told me what to tell you all . I have to say that" Brad in Germany "and "mot" ( by Private Message ) got it right. He said you guys would probably wet your pants over these pictures...the actual car A-1 is there and it was really great for me to see the car that Henry gave to Edison . The whole museum is looking really nice. Sorry about the prank.
I was set up to do it.

This has to be the greatest prank in all Ford Barndom.... Here ya had is all bickering and twittering and trying to show haw smart we are

[jkcrosson]

I think I would have pulled the plug on the prank earlier. But, I do not have a good poker face anyway.

[Mitch//pa]

you really f***< them guys up, hook line and sinker lol

i knew it thats why i kept quiet heehe

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kirby1374

This has to be the greatest prank in all Ford Barndom.... Here ya had is all bickering and twittering and trying to show haw smart we are

Prank or not it got alot of information out there about the early blocks and a bunch of questions answered.

I think it was a great post!!

[Chris in WNC]

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good harmless fun that got the pudding stirred up vigorously.
nice one, Duffer......

[Mitch//pa]

Watch out duffer the next time you ask how to change your oil or put air in your tires, that no one messes with ya. Lmao

[Kirby1374]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Prank or not it got alot of information out there about the early blocks and a bunch of questions answered.

I think it was a great post!!

You are right

[duffer]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Watch out duffer the next time you ask how to change your oil or put air in your tires, that no one messes with ya. Lmao

yes , i didn't think of the fact that i may still need a question answered.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by duffer

yes , i didn't think of the fact that i may still need a question answered.

Yep......one in Washington, the other in California........good luck....

[duffer]

Originally Posted by robw

and in penance you are going to show the rest of the pictures?!?!?!?!?

Here you go.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Look at the head nuts.

Not only are the head nuts wrong for the time period, but the car has a two-tooth steering column, later starter switch, glass sediment bulb, and later starter cable (from looking at a close-up photo of the car itself).

NOW...Just what is the length of the engine number pad?

Pluck