Previous Owner filled Steering Box with Grease - Up a Creek?

[Flintlockshooter]

Still catching up on all the Spring rituals needed on my new -to me - 1930 Coupe. This is my first and only so I have been reading Andrew's book and any threads I find.
Trying to adjust the steering - little luck, and then was going to fill the steering with 600W from Snyder's. Taking off the plug and I was greeted by a plug of grease. It seems the previous owner(s) filled it with grease not oil! I poked as much out as I could and topped it off anyway.
All the threads I read mention BIG MISTAKE and terms of that nature. Am I screwed and need to go through the job of taking the thing off and a clean/rebuild?
The steering seems fine with the exception of can't seem to get less than 2" of play out of the steering wheel.
Thanks for any help or advice!

[Farrell In Vancouver]

One could argue that since the grease is in there anyway it will form a pocket around the worm and sector which will contain the 600W and keep them lubed. the grease may also prevent the dreaded drip these boxes like to develop. If your in no mood to do a rebuild and have it down to two inches play I'd say just drive it! You can wait til winter to do a tear down and see what needed.

[Patrick L.]

As long as you 'dig' out as much grease as you can and then add the oil, you should be OK. As far as the free-play is concerned, there are 4 adjustments on the 2 tooth steering box. Service bulletins has the best info for this procedure.

[Chris in WNC]

adjusting steering box= reasonably easy with the column & box removed; a rather difficult operation with it in the car.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Flintlockshooter

Am I screwed and need to go through the job of taking the thing off and a clean/rebuild?

Thanks for any help or advice!

Not necessarily. A lot of people don't realize that grease is almost entirely made up of lubricating oil, mainly because their eyes focus on the thickener.

Think of it as a sponge full of lubricating oil (and some additives in certain types), with the purpose of the sponge part to hold the oil in place to one degree or another. The most common grade of grease is a No. 2, those are somewhere 90-95% lube oil typically.

Your "problem" is you don't know what kind/grade of grease/lubricant is in there......but then you'd have the same "problem" if it were a completely liquid lubricant too. By digging out as much of the old lube as you did and adding more liquid lubricant you've effectively made it a softer grease. The remaining thickener isn't likely going to create any problems so from a lubrication standpoint you're fine. Your free play is another issue.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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I agree with don't sweat the grease and just keep adding the heavy gear oil as needed. Follow the Service Bulletins to do the adjustments, and you might have to run through them a couple times to get the play to an acceptable level.

Also be sure the pitman arm is dead tight to the square on the sector shaft. Just a little bit loose here can cause a lot of extra free play. And make sure the two frame mounting bolts are tight.

[Steve Plucker]

I have run a combination of Blue axle grease used with boat trailers and a good combination of oil in my gear box for the past 20 plus years or so and have had no leaks or no bearing or wear problem with the steering box.

A friend of mine showed me this trick, eh RR?

Luck I guess.

Pluck

[Marshall V. Daut]

I have rebuilt dozens of Model A steering boxes over the years and have never found one containing grease that didn't also contain a sector gear with worn and grooved teeth. Grease simply will not lubricate the teeth against the worm after a few turns. It's squeezed out and ends up clinging to the sides and bottom of the steering box where it does no good. The bearings - especially the upper one - get zero benefit from grease. Once the grease has been squeezed out between the sector teeth and the worn gear, it's bare metal against bare metal contact, which wears the teeth before the worm gear. Once you pull your box apart you will notice shiny grooved wear spots on the inside teeth, as well as shallower ones on the outsides. This translates to slop that cannot be adjusted out, as you are experiencing now. You can thank the previous Einstein restorer for this condition. Warnings and instructions to use only thick lube here abound in almost all Model A publications, so there's no justifiable excuse for "restorers" to cram grease into their steering boxes. Ignore future "advice" from any Model A guy, who tells you it's o.k. to use grease instead of lube. Your 2" unadjustable slop is proof to the contrary.
Marshall

[Flintlockshooter]

Thanks for all the comments! As noted I suspect and hope that just adding the correct oil will create a sufficient mush to do a thorough lube task. I'll just use a pump from a hand cleaner bottle or the like to suck some out on occasion and replace.
As far as the adjustment, as I have read I am not the only one to not get it the first lick. I will fool with it some more and try and zero it in. The Worm Mesh adjustment is sensitive and the most trouble so far, and it may take luck to get it right. I can live with the 2" ish play and have been, just want to get it closer if at all possible.
Thanks again!

[Flintlockshooter]

Thanks Marshall, I may be chasing my tail on the adjustment if as you say the damage is done. I'll just have to put a rebuild in the things to do list. Yes I was a bit surprised to find the grease in there, with all the "Don't use grease you fool" warnings in all the books and article I read. Makes me wonder what's in the diff and tranny, I'm going to have to find out!

[700rpm]

It's a relatively simple thing to rebuild, but like most projects, not cheap. I'd recommend taking it apart and cleaning and inspecting. You might get by with just putting 600W in and not taking it apart, but for the small degree of difficulty, why not just make sure everything is good in there? I can't speak for anyone's motives but mine, but I got my Model A so I could take it apart and tinker with it, as well as drive it. This kind of project is what I call fun.

[gwhite]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

It's a relatively simple thing to rebuild, but like most projects, not cheap. I'd recommend taking it apart and cleaning and inspecting. You might get by with just putting 600W in and not taking it apart, but for the small degree of difficulty, why not just make sure everything is good in there? I can't speak for anyone's motives but mine, but I got my Model A so I could take it apart and tinker with it, as well as drive it. This kind of project is what I call fun.

Is there a 'rebuild guide' on the internet somewhere? I've got a couple of boxes that I need to take a look at but want to make sure I know the 'lay of the land' before I tear into them.

[Flintlockshooter]

Like you 700 - I got it to tinker with. I probably had a wrench as a pacifier.

As to your and Marshall's comments, to the inexperienced are the repairable parts something that, like the sector gears obvious wear pattern pointed out, something easily seen and diagnosed? Or would it be just best to shell out for the $265 rebuild kit that MACs and others may have that seem to include all and the kitchen sink? I'm as tight fisted as the next guy, but am willing to pay up for less future aggravation. The car is driveable as it is so as Farrell said a winter project no doubt.

Thanks!

[James Rogers]

Better listen to Marshall. I also , suggest to forget about Mac's and the junk bought there. Call Snyder's or Bratton's for parts. I have never bought anything from Mac's and don't ever intend to. I have thrown away enough of their parts to build a car and still keep finding some and still throw them away.

[Tom Endy]

I had the same problem when I bought my Victoria. I could hardly turn the steering wheel. Try to force 600W oil in there while turning the wheel. This is common to find grease in the steering box of a Model A. Often you will find a grease fitting on top of the steering box instead of a plug. There was one on my Victoria.

Folklore has it that the Ford dealers in the early days removed the plug and installed a grease fitting in place of the plug when the car came in for service. The reason being they had a tank of 600W and could connect a hose with a grease fitting on it to top off the steering boxes, which made for an easier task. Over the years new owners saw the grease fitting and thought grease should go there.

Tom Endy

[Marshall V. Daut]

I second James' recommendation of Snyder's or Bratton's for quality parts, as well as Mike's A-Ford-Able and Bert's Model A Center. James buys quality parts for his engine rebuilding business, so he knows who has 'em. These businesses are run by knowledgablle Model A people who are sincerely interested in making sure the customer gets the highest quality parts and advice. Mac's is more interested inyour money and making you feel like the proverbial unwanted ugly stephchild when you call for parts or assistance. Parts quality is also a step or two lower, akin to Rick's Antique Auto or J.C. Whitney from the 1970's and 1980's, IMHO. I doubt that a change in ownership is going to change much of their "character" if they take along the same rude employees with their petty bureaucratic mindset from Mac's days. Do you really want to put money into THOSE people's pockets??? Go with the recommended suppliers James and I have cited.
That rant aside, you can do a semi-disassembly of the steering box while still in the car to inspect the sector teeth. The upper floorboard, starter and the frame/gas tank mounting bolts will need to be removed first, as well as the spark and accelerator control rods disconnected. Then the steering box can be shoved out of the frame and over towards the engine for a quick removal of the sector sector housing (four nuts). The steering wheel can rest on the seat cushion or on top of the brake and clutch pedals with a towel between them. Withdraw the sector from the gear box and inspect the gear teeth. This would also be an opportune time to take a rag and swab out the grease inside. I'll bet dollars to donuts that the sector teeth are gouged and grooved from lack of proper lubrication. Even a little bit of metal lost here will affect adjustment, plus the unseen wear on the worm gear. If there are any wear patterns or gouges on the teeth, the sector should be replaced so that you have a fighting chance of getting down to less than 1" play at the steering wheel (assuming all the other steering components are within spec). This would be a good time to also replace and ream the sector housing bushings to reduce leakage as much as possible. A new worm gear would be ideal, but that requires a complete disassembly and a difficult new gear removal/installation procedure with a heavy-duty press. Try replacing just the sector first. Use the accessory light rod tube to keep lube from running out of the bottom. To help even more with keeping the lube inside, mix 600w with STP, or use one of the other heavy duty lubes for steam engines. If you have a decent automotive machine shop nearby, have them ream or cut the outside of the sector housing to accept the seal available from most vendors. The specifications for this hole can be found in some vendors' catalogs. Failing that, put an O-ring between the sector housing and the frame, pre-lubing the O-ring. You will have some minor leakage no matter what you do, but this is more than offset by the diminished play at the steering wheel. Put on a new shortened pitman arm and teflon steering buttons in the drag link and tie rod if you're feeling extra sporty. You won't believe the difference in ease of steering!
But, first things first - check the wear on the sector teeth or you will never be able to get the adjustment made satisfactorily. It's an exercise in frustration and futility.
Marshall

[jiffy]

Some times the gear box leakes. Grease will not stay on the gears. It takes oli. If you fill it with oil and it starts to leak, then you will have to put a Steering shaft Retainer with tube. All the parts places have them. Brattons Part # 5030. They are some what easy to put on. John.

[Bruce Lancaster]

A good article provided by good people:

http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/steering.htm

[gwhite]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

A good article provided by good people:

http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/steering.htm

Thanks Bruce!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yes! By all means, pay attention to Bob's rebuilding tips. He knows of which he speaks. This article has been around for quite a while and has most certainly helped many restorers for a long time. They don't come any better in this area than Bob. When Bob speaks, LISTEN!
Marshall

[Chris in WNC]

straight STP in the steering gear slows down the leaking to what I find acceptable....

[Purdy Swoft]

I use Slick 50 grease from Walmart as an assembly lube and top it off with 600 W . This has worked good for me . I use a shortened pitman arm and teflon buttons in the tie rod ends and drag link. My cars with rebuilt steering drive as well as a modern car with power steering when they are moving.

[columbiA]

I agree with Purdy that a few minor mods will make for very easy steering.I also use the torrington needle thrust brg which makes a noticeable differance.I would never use an F-100 steering box.

[Purdy Swoft]

I also use the torrington bearings in my model A's with two tooth steering and would never use the the F-100 steering box.

[dumb person]

Have not got around to rebuilding my steering box yet. Somebody filled mine with old caked grease from the 1960s so i dug it out, filled it with oil and it all leaked out overnight. Then i filled it with something similar to what you guys would be able to buy as "john deer corn head grease" that moves only very slowly. Made it much easier to steer & does not leak out, yet.

[Mike V. Florida]

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For leaks try this for the light bail,




and this for the sector gear,

[Napa Skip]

If you have access to the May-June 1998 “Model ‘A’ News” (Vol 45 No. 3), there is an article entitled “Best Steering Gear Grease” by Herman Reheis of Monticello GA, discussing his use of Ford Steering Gear Grease, Ford Part No. C3AZ-19578A. Mr. Reheis subsequently asked George DeAngelis if he was aware of this product (which he wasn’t). Mr. DeAngelis looked into the matter and responded to Herman with a letter and 3 pages of data from the Ford archives, the bottom line (as Mr. Reheis states in his “Model ‘A’ News” article) being that the product was a “grease used as a long life lubricant for steering gear housings and is expected to last for the life of the vehicle.” Mr. Reheis goes on to state that he had (as of 1998) used this grease for over 30 years in the restoration of more than 50 steering gears. A couple of years ago the local Ford parts department crossed this part number for me to a Motorcraft product, Ford Part No. CGX-1C, which has Ford Specification ESA-M1C75B.

[Purdy Swoft]

I also use the parts that Mike V has pictured above. The only modification that I make is to solder or weld the base or light switch bail to the tube. This part may have been improved. In the past, if not soldered or welded, it would still leak where the tube connects to the bail. The ones that I have used were just pressed on.

[1931 flamingo]

PENRITE STEERING BOX LUBE, AVAILABLE FROM:
Restoration Supply Co.
15182B Highland Valley Rd
Escondido, CA 92025
web www.RestorationStuff.com

does NOT leak, available on line, 1200W 500ml P/N LUB009 WAS $15.75 + ship.

Mine leaked 600w, did nothing but install this, no leaks.
Payl in CT

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

PENRITE STEERING BOX LUBE, AVAILABLE FROM:
Restoration Supply Co.
15182B Highland Valley Rd
Escondido, CA 92025
web www.RestorationStuff.com

does NOT leak, available on line, 1200W 500ml P/N LUB009 WAS $15.75 + ship.

Mine leaked 600w, did nothing but install this, no leaks.
Payl in CT

While this might be a wonderful product for the application, and there are many who have expressed so here and elsewhere, the stubbornly anti-grease folks would have to reject it as it's listed by Pennrite as a 00 grade grease, not an oil. That 1200w is someones invention of a nomenclature as there is no lubricant standard that correlates. Just sayin'............

[1931 flamingo]

It's liquid, pours sloooow.
Paul in CT

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

It's liquid, pours sloooow.
Paul in CT

Like tomato sauce. Works well.

[Duffy1]

What`s wrong with a F-100 steering box .

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

What`s wrong with a F-100 steering box .

Nothing with that or any other mod that you may choose. After over 50 years with model A's, it just wouldn't look right to me and it would probably steer more like a Ford pickup. (insert smiley face)

[ABento]

As mentioned above the John Deere Corn Head grease is also good for steering boxes, it is a flowable grease so it doesn't work itself away from the worm and sector like a normal grease would it, it doesn't form a pocket.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Well, call me a "doubting Thomas", but I'm not convinced that grease is all evil, especially Mystik JT-6 high temp, which is a very sticky grease and clings well to parts. The steering turns slowly and not very often, while wheel bearings turn fast and constant while the car is moving, and they hold up quite well. True that the worm has a wiping motion, while the wheel bearings have a rolling motion, but I still think some grease will be lubing them, especially when the gear oil is added to fill any voids.

When I rebuild a steering gear I grease the parts during assembly, then fill the box with Mobil 636.

[Uncle Bob]

Tom, since you're one of the more open minded on these matters just a commentary on your Mobil 636 portion. That's an ISO 680 viscosity grade which is quite viscous. The next grade down in Mobil's offerings is the 634 which is an ISO 460 which is in the same viscosity range as the 600w (which in turn most correlates with the middle range of an SAE 140 gear lube viscosity wise, the 680 is at the high end and beyond of that range).