The Ford Barn

MrTube · 11-17-2010, 04:32 PM

The bracket for the braces cracked\pealed off of the radiator. Looks like it was poor soldering that caused the problem.

I'm planning to use a small torch with some plumbing solder and flux to re-solder it. Is there anything I should know before hand other then get both surfaces as clean as possible? I'm assuming just enough solder to flow up through the holes in the bracket and contact both top and bottom surfaces should work good.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-17-2010, 06:20 PM

Sound like you have it figured out. If you have an old screen door spring, that helps to keep the side bracket pulled tight to the tank while you do the heating and soldering. I've soldered several top tank brackets over the years. And the quality of the solder makes a big difference. I once bought some new "offshore" solder, and I wouldn't even use it for fishing sinkers!

MrTube · 11-19-2010, 08:51 AM

Hmmm.

Should I fill the radiator with water just up to the seam where the tank meets the core to keep that joint cool during the soldering? I'm really worried about the core coming loose.

I also *should* solder the one bracket that came loose on the drivers side top. But i'm less worried about that then the top bracket.

Farrell In Vancouver · 11-19-2010, 09:10 AM

Mr. Tube, this is just about heat control.
Easier with a fine tip acetylene than a big honking propane type tip. No need for water for cooling in fact that would up the challenge as it would require more heat. I have fixed lots of radiator tanks and tabs going slow and being careful as to where the heat goes and backing off once the solder starts to move. IMHO use a good solder (not the "Lead" free crap for potable plumbing) go slow, and keep it clean. Should be a walk in the park. Good luck.

MrTube · 11-19-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell In Vancouver

Mr. Tube, this is just about heat control.
Easier with a fine tip acetylene than a big honking propane type tip. No need for water for cooling in fact that would up the challenge as it would require more heat. I have fixed lots of radiator tanks and tabs going slow and being careful as to where the heat goes and backing off once the solder starts to move. IMHO use a good solder (not the "Lead" free crap for potable plumbing) go slow, and keep it clean. Should be a walk in the park. Good luck.

Hmm. The only leaded stuff I have is rosin core for electronics. I assume rosin would just burn badly and create problems.

I suppose the only answer is to order up some quality leaded solder, I assume 63/37 is best for this?

Special Coupe Frank · 11-19-2010, 09:29 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

DO NOT USE LEAD- FREE SOLDER !!!!

It is mostly tin, and has a significantly higher melting point than lead-alloy solders.

Result: you will wind-up running the old lead solders out of the surrounding joints before you get things hot enough for the lead-free cr__ to melt.

(This goes for repairs to household plumbing too ! )

If you use a propane torch, use a pencil-point burner to concentrate the heat.

The firewall brace-rod brackets are steel, clean them thoroughly and de-grease, then tin the mating surface with the same solder that you will use of the repair.

Clean the area of the tank scrupulously, and tin that as well.

Then, place the tinned bracket on the tank, and apply the flame to the bracket and move it around in a circular motion, hitting the tank about 1/4" beyond the bracket.
You'll see the solder turn shiny-silvery, and see the bracket settle against the tank; adjust the position of the bracket, then remove the heat. Let cool.
(This technique is known as "sweating": the joining of two previously-tinned surfaces)

This is all much easier if the radiator is laying face-down on a bench. If you're concerned about radiant heat affecting other joints, take some old terry cloth ( dish towels), soak, then wring-out so they aren't sopping, then make a "rope" out of the wet towel, and lay that over the nearby joints you want to protect.

Take your time...

Good luck !

(PS: you could use rosin-core, but better to use acid-core or solid 60-40 Lead-Tin and paste flux ( I like Ruby-Fluid ) or liquid acid-flux, both available at plumbing su0pply / better hardware stores. )

Tom Wesenberg · 11-19-2010, 11:01 AM

No problem using rosin core solder. In fact I usually have better luck with that than with my acid core solder.

MrTube · 11-19-2010, 11:29 AM

Tried tinning the bracket this morning with little luck. Had no problem controlling the heat, although it is A LOT different then using an iron on electronics. The bracket was originally soldered to the radiator only partially rather then butted up tight against it so I wire wheeled the unused surface.

Surface must still be dirty as the solder didn't want to stick. I'm going to have to clean it more, or get some flux. We have rosin flux pens in stock I may try.

Right now I have a bad migraine so its not the best time for me to be doing it. May try tomorrow when I feel better.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-19-2010, 11:41 AM

If you can give the bracket a shot of sandblasting that should help. I use blackblast from Menards, as it's so much cleaner than sand and does a much better job.

If you can't blast it, then I'd sand it with sandpaper no finer than 220. Use rosin flux and it should tin OK. Sometimes it helps to have a stainless steel small wire brush to help scrub the melted solder into the steel for a good tinning job. You're right about soldering steel is much harder than doing electronics.

I often find the bracket has only been soldered on about half the surface also,

MrTube · 11-19-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

If you can give the bracket a shot of sandblasting that should help. I use blackblast from Menards, as it's so much cleaner than sand and does a much better job.

If you can't blast it, then I'd sand it with sandpaper no finer than 220. Use rosin flux and it should tin OK. Sometimes it helps to have a stainless steel small wire brush to help scrub the melted solder into the steel for a good tinning job. You're right about soldering steel is much harder than doing electronics.

I often find the bracket has only been soldered on about half the surface also,

Tom, do you think the half surface job is from the factory or a definite replacement job? It looks to me like the bracket is meant to but tight up against the tank.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-19-2010, 09:21 PM

I've only done a couple side brackets on Model A's, but I've seen half soldered brackets on newer cars. Yes, the bracket should be pulled up tight to the tank. I like to get both surfaces fully tinned, then let the door spring pull them tight to the tank as you solder them.

Special Coupe Frank · 11-20-2010, 09:22 AM

The solder is the bonding agent between the two pieces of metal, similar to glue; complete solder coverage across the mating surfaces is important for a strong joint.

It should not be a perimeter bead like a weld.

Soldering with an open flame is a bit tricky; it is easy to overheat the parts, causing oxidation of the surfaces and the solder will not stick.

If you have a little soldering vise with the alligator clips, for tinning the backet, you might try clipping the bracket inthe center ( where the rod sits), soldered sider facing up, then play the flame carefully on the under side of the bracket: heat abit, take the flame away, touch the solder: if it doesn't "run", remove the solder and play some more flame from underneath, repeat as needed. Once the solder flows, only add heat as-needed to keep the solder plastic, until you get it flowed across the surface - a stainless brush can help.
The idea is just like electrical soldering: you want to get the stock hot enough to melt the solder, not melt the solder onto the cold stock. This is more challenging with an open flame than with an iron.

You might want to keep an eye out for some big, honkin' antique electric soldering irons, in the 100 to 300 watt variety.... these come in handy for heavier wiring / light sheetmetal work... stuff that requires more heat than a 45 watt pencil iron.

Since production time was critical in the factory, a poor joint now and then is not surprising...

1931 flamingo · 11-20-2010, 09:36 AM

Many, many years ago when I was nosing my dad's 50 ford, used a coleman 2 burner camp stove to heat a large soldering (non-electric) iron and then melt the lead bars into the cleaned groove in the hood. Worked just fine.
Paul in CT

Tom Wesenberg · 11-20-2010, 10:38 AM

I thought you were talking about the SIDE mounting brackets on the radiator, but after reading Frank's reply, you may be talking about the support rod brackets. Either way Frank gives good advice about keeping the flame on the side opposite the solder.

There is a heavy brass soldering tip made for propane torches. Be sure to tin the brass tip as soon as it is hot enough, then press the brass tip onto the steel or brass radiator needing solder. I made my own brass tip for my propane torch and it has come in handy several times for large soldering jobs. I would use the brass tip to tin the radiator top tank, and use an open flame on the opposite side to tin the steel part. After both parts are tinned, then press them together and heat just enough to get complete solder flow in the joint. Good flux and solder are important.

I keep a rag handy, so as soon as the solder has solidified you can wipe away any excess flux. Alcohol and a brush will also get rid of excess flux, even after it has cooled.

11-17-2010, 04:32 PM	#1
MrTube Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,471	Radiator bracket for braces The bracket for the braces cracked\pealed off of the radiator. Looks like it was poor soldering that caused the problem. I'm planning to use a small torch with some plumbing solder and flux to re-solder it. Is there anything I should know before hand other then get both surfaces as clean as possible? I'm assuming just enough solder to flow up through the holes in the bracket and contact both top and bottom surfaces should work good.

11-17-2010, 06:20 PM	#2
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Sound like you have it figured out. If you have an old screen door spring, that helps to keep the side bracket pulled tight to the tank while you do the heating and soldering. I've soldered several top tank brackets over the years. And the quality of the solder makes a big difference. I once bought some new "offshore" solder, and I wouldn't even use it for fishing sinkers!

11-19-2010, 08:51 AM	#3
MrTube Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,471	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Hmmm. Should I fill the radiator with water just up to the seam where the tank meets the core to keep that joint cool during the soldering? I'm really worried about the core coming loose. I also should solder the one bracket that came loose on the drivers side top. But i'm less worried about that then the top bracket.

11-19-2010, 09:10 AM	#4
Farrell In Vancouver Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pitt Meadows BC Posts: 1,003	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Mr. Tube, this is just about heat control. Easier with a fine tip acetylene than a big honking propane type tip. No need for water for cooling in fact that would up the challenge as it would require more heat. I have fixed lots of radiator tanks and tabs going slow and being careful as to where the heat goes and backing off once the solder starts to move. IMHO use a good solder (not the "Lead" free crap for potable plumbing) go slow, and keep it clean. Should be a walk in the park. Good luck.

11-19-2010, 09:29 AM	#6
Special Coupe Frank Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Penna Posts: 2,108	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) DO NOT USE LEAD- FREE SOLDER !!!! It is mostly tin, and has a significantly higher melting point than lead-alloy solders. Result: you will wind-up running the old lead solders out of the surrounding joints before you get things hot enough for the lead-free cr__ to melt. (This goes for repairs to household plumbing too ! ) If you use a propane torch, use a pencil-point burner to concentrate the heat. The firewall brace-rod brackets are steel, clean them thoroughly and de-grease, then tin the mating surface with the same solder that you will use of the repair. Clean the area of the tank scrupulously, and tin that as well. Then, place the tinned bracket on the tank, and apply the flame to the bracket and move it around in a circular motion, hitting the tank about 1/4" beyond the bracket. You'll see the solder turn shiny-silvery, and see the bracket settle against the tank; adjust the position of the bracket, then remove the heat. Let cool. (This technique is known as "sweating": the joining of two previously-tinned surfaces) This is all much easier if the radiator is laying face-down on a bench. If you're concerned about radiant heat affecting other joints, take some old terry cloth ( dish towels), soak, then wring-out so they aren't sopping, then make a "rope" out of the wet towel, and lay that over the nearby joints you want to protect. Take your time... Good luck ! (PS: you could use rosin-core, but better to use acid-core or solid 60-40 Lead-Tin and paste flux ( I like Ruby-Fluid ) or liquid acid-flux, both available at plumbing su0pply / better hardware stores. )

11-19-2010, 11:01 AM	#7
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Radiator bracket for braces No problem using rosin core solder. In fact I usually have better luck with that than with my acid core solder.

11-19-2010, 11:29 AM	#8
MrTube Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,471	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Tried tinning the bracket this morning with little luck. Had no problem controlling the heat, although it is A LOT different then using an iron on electronics. The bracket was originally soldered to the radiator only partially rather then butted up tight against it so I wire wheeled the unused surface. Surface must still be dirty as the solder didn't want to stick. I'm going to have to clean it more, or get some flux. We have rosin flux pens in stock I may try. Right now I have a bad migraine so its not the best time for me to be doing it. May try tomorrow when I feel better.

11-19-2010, 11:41 AM	#9
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Radiator bracket for braces If you can give the bracket a shot of sandblasting that should help. I use blackblast from Menards, as it's so much cleaner than sand and does a much better job. If you can't blast it, then I'd sand it with sandpaper no finer than 220. Use rosin flux and it should tin OK. Sometimes it helps to have a stainless steel small wire brush to help scrub the melted solder into the steel for a good tinning job. You're right about soldering steel is much harder than doing electronics. I often find the bracket has only been soldered on about half the surface also,

11-19-2010, 09:21 PM	#11
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Radiator bracket for braces I've only done a couple side brackets on Model A's, but I've seen half soldered brackets on newer cars. Yes, the bracket should be pulled up tight to the tank. I like to get both surfaces fully tinned, then let the door spring pull them tight to the tank as you solder them.

11-20-2010, 09:22 AM	#12
Special Coupe Frank Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Penna Posts: 2,108	Re: Radiator bracket for braces The solder is the bonding agent between the two pieces of metal, similar to glue; complete solder coverage across the mating surfaces is important for a strong joint. It should not be a perimeter bead like a weld. Soldering with an open flame is a bit tricky; it is easy to overheat the parts, causing oxidation of the surfaces and the solder will not stick. If you have a little soldering vise with the alligator clips, for tinning the backet, you might try clipping the bracket inthe center ( where the rod sits), soldered sider facing up, then play the flame carefully on the under side of the bracket: heat abit, take the flame away, touch the solder: if it doesn't "run", remove the solder and play some more flame from underneath, repeat as needed. Once the solder flows, only add heat as-needed to keep the solder plastic, until you get it flowed across the surface - a stainless brush can help. The idea is just like electrical soldering: you want to get the stock hot enough to melt the solder, not melt the solder onto the cold stock. This is more challenging with an open flame than with an iron. You might want to keep an eye out for some big, honkin' antique electric soldering irons, in the 100 to 300 watt variety.... these come in handy for heavier wiring / light sheetmetal work... stuff that requires more heat than a 45 watt pencil iron. Since production time was critical in the factory, a poor joint now and then is not surprising...

11-20-2010, 09:36 AM	#13
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Radiator bracket for braces Many, many years ago when I was nosing my dad's 50 ford, used a coleman 2 burner camp stove to heat a large soldering (non-electric) iron and then melt the lead bars into the cleaned groove in the hood. Worked just fine. Paul in CT

11-20-2010, 10:38 AM	#14
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Radiator bracket for braces I thought you were talking about the SIDE mounting brackets on the radiator, but after reading Frank's reply, you may be talking about the support rod brackets. Either way Frank gives good advice about keeping the flame on the side opposite the solder. There is a heavy brass soldering tip made for propane torches. Be sure to tin the brass tip as soon as it is hot enough, then press the brass tip onto the steel or brass radiator needing solder. I made my own brass tip for my propane torch and it has come in handy several times for large soldering jobs. I would use the brass tip to tin the radiator top tank, and use an open flame on the opposite side to tin the steel part. After both parts are tinned, then press them together and heat just enough to get complete solder flow in the joint. Good flux and solder are important. I keep a rag handy, so as soon as the solder has solidified you can wipe away any excess flux. Alcohol and a brush will also get rid of excess flux, even after it has cooled.