The Ford Barn

SamIyam · 11-18-2010, 01:30 PM

Hi boys and girls!

I'm working on putting seat belts in my Model A coupe.

I have anchored seat belts in drag cars, hot rods and our Bonneville car with not so much as a hiccup...

But this thing has me stymied!!

It's a '30 coupe with stock interior and a rumble seat.

The rear looks pretty simple... I can drill holes right under where the deck lid hits those two little stops. I can then back the holes up with some thicker metal. Done.

As for the front belts... I saw local Model A'er Jim Boehmke's beautiful Model A coupe... and he had a simple solution for the outer belts that I recall... just a couple of "L" brackets that bolted to the sub rail... and then the seat belts bolted to the brackets.

So, I can do that on the outers.

But it's the inner belts that I am having trouble with.

The way the seat is designed... if I try to bolt them to the sub rails' cross piece, the belts would then have to go backwards, around the lower cushion and then out to the driver in between the lower and upper cushion.

In the event of a wreck... that cushion is going to give way, and about 6" of slack will be taken up by my 200 pound body continuing to "stay in motion" after the car has come to an abrupt stop... said 200 pound body will continue to stay in motion until acted up by and outside force (the seat belts)...

It's all physics, you know.

So my good buddy Tim was over... and we came up with a few solutions.

One would be to put a cross member down on the frame, under the floor pan... and then attach the two belts to that cross member.

Kinda overkill... and a lot of work... and the end result, if you put the belts in at a 45 degree angle... they are into the ruble seat area.

Problem with that is... my kids will be stepping on them all the time.

I can just see it now, we take the A down to LosCaparoles for a Super Burrito with all the fixins... salsa, chips... maybe a horchada or two... kid steps on my seat belt and BLAUUGHHH!! Puke all over the interior... then I gotta turn around and try to get that stupid roll-down-window down fast enough to reach back and smack him... and in the process, I'd probably crash the car!

At least the belts would be installed proper and keep me from being ejected from the car.

So... how did you do it on your car?

Sam

dan · 11-18-2010, 02:45 PM

I've read it's not recommended to attach the belts to the frame, as if the body and frame separate you're going to be cut in half by the belts.

I'm not at my computer right now, but later I'll post a link to the how-to article I followed. I don't think I took pictures when I did mine.

:edit:

The article I followed is here: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Techn...at_belts_2.pdf

Jason in TX · 11-18-2010, 03:01 PM

If you are in a wreck so bad that it removes the body from the frame, then no lap belt will help you anyways. Did you see the Pizza Hut driver video that hit the A coupe. The modern was pretty wasted and the A is far from having the body pulled from the frame.

Look at your frame and you'll notice that there is a hole in the frame that lines up almost with the back of the seat in the coupe. I've read that people bolt a piece of 4' long angle iron from frame rail to frame rail and then bolt the center belt to that.

They also make that angle iron that already has the holes in it along the entire length, so you can bolt the belt along the iron at your liking.

Click here to see pizza driver wreck

This kind of angle iron...

SamIyam · 11-18-2010, 03:04 PM

I never thought about the body separating from the frame in an accident... I wonder how often that has happened.

But like you said, if it did... the results would not be pretty.

Thanks for the link to the MAFCA site...

The only problem I see with that installation is that the lower seat cushion pushes the belt into a right angle... and then if you get into a wreck, all of that cushion is going to get compressed as the belt is pulled taut.

It will however, keep you INSIDE the car... which, is much more safe than being ejected. (I know someone always knows someone who survided an accident because they were thrown free... but that's a one-in-a-million chance.)

Thanks for the info, I look forward to seeing your pictures!

Sam

Jason in TX · 11-18-2010, 03:10 PM

On the wooden subframed cars like the Vickys, Cabriolets, 400As, etc, I think its much more wise to have the belts bolted to the frame than to the metal pan under the seat that is nailed to the wooden subrails. I would think the chance of the belts coming loose would be much greater, ejecting me from the car.

And I own a book of vintage car wrecks, and have seen many many many photos of 30s car accidents, and I would say 95% of those photos usually have the body still sitting on the frame, not tipped over or off in the ditch seperate. Even the salt flat wrecks, dirt roundy cars, etc. Bodies still mounted to the frame.

That's not to say that the solid steering column or the seats that came loose of the floor or all the knobs sticking out of the dash didn't do their share of bodily damage. I guess the key to surviving the car crashes in the 30s without seat belts was to have a nip or two on the hooch to loosen you up first before you went through that fabric/chicken wire roof... :P

SamIyam · 11-18-2010, 03:11 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Elrod, all my friends have heard me say "If that breaks, you have bigger problems than_________".

That statement probably applies to the body coming off the frame in a wreck!

If you're involved in a head on at 30mph... your chances of avoiding major injuries or death is pretty slim... even if you have seat belts.

But it's those slower accidents that I am worried about. The ones that are more likely to happen, and eject you from the car.

Like someone running a light and running into your rear quarter panel... spinning you around and popping the door open. Car spins, you get ejected, and then run over by the spinning car.
Yuck.

Thanks for ALL of this discussion... it's not like we can make these old cars as safe as new ones... but I think all of us need to look at the safety of our vehicles to make them as safe as realistically possible.

Sam

Kevin in NJ · 11-18-2010, 08:57 PM

There have been a couple of fairly violent Model A accidents posted online in the last couple of years. None showed signs of the body pulling from the frame. I am pretty sure if the A was in an accident where the frame pulled you would have way to many problems, the belts sticking to the frame are the least of them. But I could be wrong.

I have got no problem with putting the belts to the wood sills. If you are pulling the bolts though that wood in and accident then see my comment above.

Here is a link to how I put seat belt mounts on my cabriolet body. I am in no way saying this is the right way or the best way. It is just my best guess and try. I hope to not find out if I did it right.

My way of putting seat belts in a cabriolet

One final thought. Most the miles you do in you car will be slower speed. Not because your car can not go faster, just that is how most get driven. You need something that is going to do a reasonable job of keeping you in place. You have a second problem in that the A body is small and there are lots of things to hit with your body (well head). Keep that in mind as you do you install.

Jim Boehmke · 11-18-2010, 10:23 PM

I made L brackets and bolted the retractor mechinism to them on my late '31 coupe

SamIyam · 11-18-2010, 11:21 PM

Hi Jim!

How did you do the center two?

Oh... and now the the firetruck is almost done... I hope you get a chance to stop by soon... check out all the A-happenin's in person!

Commander Toasty · 11-19-2010, 01:43 PM

Elrod - please name that book - I'd like to look it up on abebooks. Thanks

Jason in TX · 11-19-2010, 03:44 PM

The book is called "Old Car Wrecks: And the Vehicles at Accident Scenes, 1920s to 1960s" by Ron Kowalke.

Here is the link to it on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Old-Car-Wrecks.../dp/0873415108

pat in Santa Cruz · 11-19-2010, 04:10 PM

this '28 phaeton was hit head on by a pickup traveling at 50 mph. The 4 passengers survived. The seatbelts were attached in front to the back of the seat riser, using a large washer to spread the shear out, and attached in the back through the bottom rail of the body.

macecarwreck by tiopato2000, on Flickr

Commander Toasty · 11-19-2010, 04:53 PM

Ordered for $11 - thanks!

Bruce of MN · 11-20-2010, 05:36 AM

I want to put belts in my '31 Coupe. I have saved this as a guide: http://www.cedarcreekas.org/TechTopics/SeatBelts.pdf

I searched here and got this http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...light=seatbelt

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ight=seat+belt

http://home.comcast.net/~68c/seatbelt_cab/seatbelts.htm

There are others. Using Search really extends the benefits of Fordbarn

11-18-2010, 01:30 PM	#1
SamIyam Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 45 minutes East of Frisco Posts: 43	Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? Hi boys and girls! I'm working on putting seat belts in my Model A coupe. I have anchored seat belts in drag cars, hot rods and our Bonneville car with not so much as a hiccup... But this thing has me stymied!! It's a '30 coupe with stock interior and a rumble seat. The rear looks pretty simple... I can drill holes right under where the deck lid hits those two little stops. I can then back the holes up with some thicker metal. Done. As for the front belts... I saw local Model A'er Jim Boehmke's beautiful Model A coupe... and he had a simple solution for the outer belts that I recall... just a couple of "L" brackets that bolted to the sub rail... and then the seat belts bolted to the brackets. So, I can do that on the outers. But it's the inner belts that I am having trouble with. The way the seat is designed... if I try to bolt them to the sub rails' cross piece, the belts would then have to go backwards, around the lower cushion and then out to the driver in between the lower and upper cushion. In the event of a wreck... that cushion is going to give way, and about 6" of slack will be taken up by my 200 pound body continuing to "stay in motion" after the car has come to an abrupt stop... said 200 pound body will continue to stay in motion until acted up by and outside force (the seat belts)... It's all physics, you know. So my good buddy Tim was over... and we came up with a few solutions. One would be to put a cross member down on the frame, under the floor pan... and then attach the two belts to that cross member. Kinda overkill... and a lot of work... and the end result, if you put the belts in at a 45 degree angle... they are into the ruble seat area. Problem with that is... my kids will be stepping on them all the time. I can just see it now, we take the A down to LosCaparoles for a Super Burrito with all the fixins... salsa, chips... maybe a horchada or two... kid steps on my seat belt and BLAUUGHHH!! Puke all over the interior... then I gotta turn around and try to get that stupid roll-down-window down fast enough to reach back and smack him... and in the process, I'd probably crash the car! At least the belts would be installed proper and keep me from being ejected from the car. So... how did you do it on your car? Sam

11-18-2010, 02:45 PM	#2
dan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: McPherson, KS Posts: 197	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? I've read it's not recommended to attach the belts to the frame, as if the body and frame separate you're going to be cut in half by the belts. I'm not at my computer right now, but later I'll post a link to the how-to article I followed. I don't think I took pictures when I did mine. :edit: The article I followed is here: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Techn...at_belts_2.pdf

11-18-2010, 03:01 PM	#3
Jason in TX Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ⓉⒺXⒶⓈ Posts: 2,047	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? If you are in a wreck so bad that it removes the body from the frame, then no lap belt will help you anyways. Did you see the Pizza Hut driver video that hit the A coupe. The modern was pretty wasted and the A is far from having the body pulled from the frame. Look at your frame and you'll notice that there is a hole in the frame that lines up almost with the back of the seat in the coupe. I've read that people bolt a piece of 4' long angle iron from frame rail to frame rail and then bolt the center belt to that. They also make that angle iron that already has the holes in it along the entire length, so you can bolt the belt along the iron at your liking. Click here to see pizza driver wreck This kind of angle iron... __________________ -------------- Drive it like you know how to fix it! DMAFC / OILERS CC-MC

11-18-2010, 03:04 PM	#4
SamIyam Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 45 minutes East of Frisco Posts: 43	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? I never thought about the body separating from the frame in an accident... I wonder how often that has happened. But like you said, if it did... the results would not be pretty. Thanks for the link to the MAFCA site... The only problem I see with that installation is that the lower seat cushion pushes the belt into a right angle... and then if you get into a wreck, all of that cushion is going to get compressed as the belt is pulled taut. It will however, keep you INSIDE the car... which, is much more safe than being ejected. (I know someone always knows someone who survided an accident because they were thrown free... but that's a one-in-a-million chance.) Thanks for the info, I look forward to seeing your pictures! Sam

11-18-2010, 03:10 PM	#5
Jason in TX Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ⓉⒺXⒶⓈ Posts: 2,047	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? On the wooden subframed cars like the Vickys, Cabriolets, 400As, etc, I think its much more wise to have the belts bolted to the frame than to the metal pan under the seat that is nailed to the wooden subrails. I would think the chance of the belts coming loose would be much greater, ejecting me from the car. And I own a book of vintage car wrecks, and have seen many many many photos of 30s car accidents, and I would say 95% of those photos usually have the body still sitting on the frame, not tipped over or off in the ditch seperate. Even the salt flat wrecks, dirt roundy cars, etc. Bodies still mounted to the frame. That's not to say that the solid steering column or the seats that came loose of the floor or all the knobs sticking out of the dash didn't do their share of bodily damage. I guess the key to surviving the car crashes in the 30s without seat belts was to have a nip or two on the hooch to loosen you up first before you went through that fabric/chicken wire roof... :P __________________ -------------- Drive it like you know how to fix it! DMAFC / OILERS CC-MC Last edited by Jason in TX; 11-18-2010 at 03:18 PM.

11-18-2010, 03:11 PM	#6
SamIyam Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 45 minutes East of Frisco Posts: 43	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Elrod, all my friends have heard me say "If that breaks, you have bigger problems than_________". That statement probably applies to the body coming off the frame in a wreck! If you're involved in a head on at 30mph... your chances of avoiding major injuries or death is pretty slim... even if you have seat belts. But it's those slower accidents that I am worried about. The ones that are more likely to happen, and eject you from the car. Like someone running a light and running into your rear quarter panel... spinning you around and popping the door open. Car spins, you get ejected, and then run over by the spinning car. Yuck. Thanks for ALL of this discussion... it's not like we can make these old cars as safe as new ones... but I think all of us need to look at the safety of our vehicles to make them as safe as realistically possible. Sam

11-18-2010, 08:57 PM	#7
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? There have been a couple of fairly violent Model A accidents posted online in the last couple of years. None showed signs of the body pulling from the frame. I am pretty sure if the A was in an accident where the frame pulled you would have way to many problems, the belts sticking to the frame are the least of them. But I could be wrong. I have got no problem with putting the belts to the wood sills. If you are pulling the bolts though that wood in and accident then see my comment above. Here is a link to how I put seat belt mounts on my cabriolet body. I am in no way saying this is the right way or the best way. It is just my best guess and try. I hope to not find out if I did it right. My way of putting seat belts in a cabriolet One final thought. Most the miles you do in you car will be slower speed. Not because your car can not go faster, just that is how most get driven. You need something that is going to do a reasonable job of keeping you in place. You have a second problem in that the A body is small and there are lots of things to hit with your body (well head). Keep that in mind as you do you install.

11-18-2010, 11:21 PM	#9
SamIyam Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 45 minutes East of Frisco Posts: 43	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? Hi Jim! How did you do the center two? Oh... and now the the firetruck is almost done... I hope you get a chance to stop by soon... check out all the A-happenin's in person!

11-19-2010, 01:43 PM	#10
Commander Toasty Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 86	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? Elrod - please name that book - I'd like to look it up on abebooks. Thanks

11-19-2010, 03:44 PM	#11
Jason in TX Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ⓉⒺXⒶⓈ Posts: 2,047	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? The book is called "Old Car Wrecks: And the Vehicles at Accident Scenes, 1920s to 1960s" by Ron Kowalke. Here is the link to it on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Old-Car-Wrecks.../dp/0873415108 __________________ -------------- Drive it like you know how to fix it! DMAFC / OILERS CC-MC

11-19-2010, 04:10 PM	#12
pat in Santa Cruz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: santa cruz, calif Posts: 2,011	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? this '28 phaeton was hit head on by a pickup traveling at 50 mph. The 4 passengers survived. The seatbelts were attached in front to the back of the seat riser, using a large washer to spread the shear out, and attached in the back through the bottom rail of the body. macecarwreck by tiopato2000, on Flickr

11-19-2010, 04:53 PM	#13
Commander Toasty Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 86	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? Ordered for $11 - thanks!

11-20-2010, 05:36 AM	#14
Bruce of MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: VA Posts: 1,410	Re: Does anyone have pictures of how they installed seat belts in their Model A? I want to put belts in my '31 Coupe. I have saved this as a guide: http://www.cedarcreekas.org/TechTopics/SeatBelts.pdf I searched here and got this http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...light=seatbelt http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ight=seat+belt http://home.comcast.net/~68c/seatbelt_cab/seatbelts.htm There are others. Using Search really extends the benefits of Fordbarn