ever wanted to choke a body man?

[John Duden]

I HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST ONE!!!
i FINALLY found a early 28 AA truck Ford script upper cab panel. Paid $900 for it and it had a warp inside and the bottom had some minor rust out. I figured i had enough money into the panel and did not want to ruin it so i figured i would take it to the body shop. I had a fender that i had been working on and i had i all ready to go. It had a flat spot on the rounded edge at the bottom. So i took them to a body shop THAT WAS HIGHLY RECOMENDABLE FOR THEIR WORK! i asked him for a price quote and he said "i'll take care of Ya" a few months later he called and said that they were done, so me and grandpa went and got them. He said I will cut you a deal on the work! "I will Charge you 3/4 of the ammount of the time i put in" He rights up the bill, and hands it to me $2040!!!!!!!! ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!
I took it home and got it ready to paint and started to look a the fender. where he rerounded the bottom he flared the fender OUT and WARPED THE FLAT PART!! the other spot was 1/4 inche drop. Then the panel still was warped and if you ran you hand across it, it was all wavey!! PUT BLACK ON THAT AND IT WILL SHOW LIKE A SORE THUMB!
i took them back and told him to fix it right and he made me look like an idoit. (gradpa did not come in with me he was soooooo P*ssed off" I said "FIX IT RIGHT, SINCE YOU SEEM TO KNOW HOW TO SCREW OVER A 16 YEAR OLD!
3 months later i get them back....WITH A $400 BILL!! WTF! round 2! All hell breaks loose.
"DIDN'T I GIVE YOU ENOUGH MONEY LAST TIME! REMEMBER THE BILL I PAID YOU FOR SITTING THERE PICKIN YOU F*** NOSE!!!"
friend that came along " YOU MUST BE REAL PROUD THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO SCREW A KID OVER"
Round 2 OVER!
needless to say we did not come home with a bill that night!
moral of the story GET A PRICE QUOTE!! Not "I'll take care of you"!

[bart78]

For how much everything costs now. I don't see why more dont learn to do most of this work themselves. Practice with crap fenders or quarters from a junk car. You don't need a expensive welder. I use a torch for my sheetmetal welding. It does not warp the metal as much. And finishes real easy. Good hammers and dollies are a must. There are tons of good books and videos out that are good to learn from. The way I have allways seen it. It's metal so you can fix it again if you mess it up.

[Popeye31]

I'm a body man also. I just bid a job on a 53 Chevy truck. the owner said the last guy was doing a good job and the guy just stopped working on the truck. Wouldn't return his calls etc. When I looked at the truck you could see every bondo spot on the truck and it was far from straight. cracks in the metal that wasn't welded,still had holes in the window channels, chips in the paint under the primer, runs in the paint that he did put on and To make matters worse he was using rattle can paint . I told the owner I would have to strip the truck down and start over. his eyes got big and said I just paid $6,000 for what the last guy did. He said you cant paint it like that? I explained to him the guys work was shabby and if I would paint it that way everything he did would show. and when people start asking where he got it done at. who do you think he's going to say painted it? I'm not putting my name on work like that. I went on to explain the process it would take to get it to what he really wanted. and I was fortunate I had a bunch of pics from a 56 Tbird that another guy brought me in almost the same way. I showed him the prosses and how nice his truck would look when I was done. He wasn't happy that the other guy took him through the cleaners. I did my best to educate the owner and that's the best we can do for situations like this. I hope he decides to let me do the work on his truck. Do your research ask for pics of previous done work or ask if a pervious customer will let you look at there car. If they are a reputable shop or individual they wouldn't hesitate to provide you with stuff like that.

[Curt Campbell]

I am a body man. I grew up in the car business. I was hooked when I unmasked my Dad's cars in the shop when I was 5 or so....i thought it was great fun. I painted my first car at age 12....I am 64. I chose another career for my 38-40 years of "regular" work. The reason I did that was that I could not work in a "regular" body shop and make the living and secure retirement I needed for my family. I could not have my own body shop to make the living and secure retirement I needed for my family. The reason I could not make the kind of living I needed and wanted was I have to do things right. Plus, I didn't have the capital necessary to fund the kind of shop I would have wanted...and didn't want to go that far into debt. There is no time in most regular body shop commission settings to take that kind of time....to do things right. Most customers do not understand the amount of time it takes to do it "right"....how could they know...its not their fault. Most body shop owners I have known just want it done...quickly...make it look "good". In all fairness, they need to make a living...and that is how most of them can make it work for them. Most are not rip off artists, they are just trying to support their families..just like you.

I care as much about my customers cars as I do my own...sometimes more.

So, I had and have a small body shop at my home and I moonlighted for myself and others who expected and received correct work. Now, I am retired and I am enjoying being "anal" about my work. Often, someone will ask me to work on their old car. Usually, it goes something like this....would you paint my car...I dont need the best....only want to spend X $$. I tell them they will need to find someone else. In that situation, they will pay for a "quickie job", leave your shop, show their poorly done car to others....others ask who did the work....they tell them....but neglect to tell them they wanted and paid for a cheap assed job. Guess what kind of reputation that gives you. Fortunately, others ask for their car to be done right....and they get it. At the best price possible I can give them. Money is hard to come by.

I am sorry for those who get ripped off...it really pisses me off. Those kind of people are everywhere....not only in body work. I have corrected a lot of the poor work over the years for friends. However, they are not all like that. Brent in Tennessee for example...a master. And many more.

Things have dramatically changed over the years. It has gotten very expensive to do things "right". In the 60's and 70's a pint of paint (lacquer then of course) was often under 2-3 bucks.

I am not sure why I replied to this. Just struck a nerve I guess.

[Chris Haynes]

I wish I could find a good body and paint guy in Los Angeles. Nobody wants to do a car torn apart. I have been waiting a year and a half for a guy who does old cars and does a great job. But it is a weekend job for him so the six cars ahead of me are taking forever. :-(

[Craig Lewis]

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Originally Posted by midgetracer

I have worked with three body men on antique cars. The work is damn hard. If it was easy I would do it myself. Giving a quote of how many hours it takes is hard because straightening and repairing 80+ year old metal is very hard. Materials are out of this world high and the shop costs are high for heat and lights etc. My last gallon of paint was $800 and I am unwilling to practice with that kind of supplies. Every week I get a total of the hours spent and supplies used and pay the bill. I have never gotten sideways with any of these gentlemen and the jobs are flawless. I have never asked for an estimate because it is so hard to get an accurate estimate of the time it takes to redo 80 years of stress. When a shop fixes your modern car replacement parts are readily available and for the most part they bolt right on. There is a computer full of flat rate time available for this service. If body men are such crooks, tell me why it is so hard to find one to work on your deformed 80 year old classic. Too often an estimate is given as 2-3 thousand dollars and the customer thinks $2000 and maybe he will get it done for $1500 and the body man thinks $3000 and it may be a bit more due to hidden problems. There is a recipe for failure. Also, no one wants quick and dirty except for the price. We expect perfection, but only want a low price. IMHO respect your body man. He is a fading resource and if you tried to do what he does, you would find a different occupation soon. As for me I appreciate those that have done body work for me and I tell them so.
Sorry if I have offended anyone, I hate body work and respect the professionals that can make a POS into a show quality fender.

Truer words have never been said!
Midget racer, you (and Keith)(and Kurt) all nailed it.
I was a body man for a dozen years and found it was often a thankless job. We used to make fair money only on insurance work, except now the insurance companies have "streamlined" the prices to the last penny and it's become a nightmare for any conscientious bodyworker to make a good living.
It's often enticing for a bodyman to take on an old car resto when he's hungry. Surely it's never hard to get the work as "lowest price wins" prevails at every level of the food chain.
I could write volumes on the back & forth antics which transpire between the customer & worker....bottom line is nobody wants to feel cheated so the idea of a customer watching progress from a separate room as they pound & sand for an hourly rate...sounds like the fairest deal ever. I'm not sure many bodymen would stand for it though.
I'm lucky to be out of the trade and find that autoglass work is better in so many ways.
"old car" headaches prevail even in the glass industry though...
Of all the collector car glass quotes I've written...I land about 10% (on purpose) and that's enough. If I was getting it all I would be bankrupt in 6 months. Newer stuff pays better simply by virtue of it's predictability, in regards to time and material requirements to complete the job.

[Allanw]

I'm very to lucky! I tend to do my own stuff, but if I wanted something complex done well, there is a local guy who has been a panelbeater for MANY years.

He works from home, with his two sons. They don't advertise, and the workshop is well hidden away - most locals don't know they are there, and they appreciate not having their location given away. They made the majority of a Packard straight 8 roadster from photos and measurements taken from a sedan and another roadster overseas, they made the replacement panels for a early teens bus at the local Museum (some of the panels were multiple complex curves, he made a pattern of the framing from fencing wire, and made the panels off site!). I've visited when they were rebuilding the bottom 1/4 of an early Porsche 356 convertible. The owner wanted NO filler, so all the repaired were welded, filed, shrunk, re-filed and hammered until you couldn't even see the welds! Their work is stunning! Their hourly rate is also lower than the "modern" shops in town, by quite a margin!

[Keith True]

I think a lot of guys look at something and think,easy work,off the car,old metal,fast job,etc.Then,1/4 of the way through they realize they've used up more time than they had figured so the parts go in the corner thinking they will use them to fill in between other jobs.It all goes downhill from there.Sometimes I hear,Geez,that guy quoted me $2500.to do my fenders! It's because that guy has already been down that road and has learned his lesson.There are always people that say,it's only a little fender,how can it cost so much? Or,you can't charge me more than the cost of a new one.There are also the people that say,for XXX amount of money I should have gotten this or that.If they're paying by the hour,and they expect more,they would be paying more.My friend that does the Henderson motorcycles works by the hour,and whatever it comes to,is what it is.He uses my big plasma cutter to make tank sides,and fender skirts for the bikes.I've seen him spend days making a set of skirts for an Indian motorcycle that couldn't be detected by the judges.

[TonyM]

[QUOTE=bart78;649098]Most body shops are going to make their money off of fixing these newer cars. Just bolt a new panel on and paint it.
The[n] charge the insurance company what they want. QUOTE]

Bart, this just ain't true. I know first hand on two occasions already. Here is how Allstate settled a claim on my F-150 a few months ago: The insurance company adjuster/investigator examines the vehicle and generates an estimate which includes not only parts and paint but man-hours too. The claimant can then bring that estimate with him to the various body shops and find one that will / can do the work for the amount of the insurance adjuster's estimate. A check is cut and you the claimant are pretty much on your own. The Body Shop can't just charge the insurance company "what they want." That is not how it works.

[1931 flamingo]

Usually an estimate is written by the repair shop, an adjuster from the ins co comes and they "negotiate", with the understanding that once said job is "opened' up and additional damage is found the adjuster returns. It's not a fun business anymore.
Paul in CT

[Terry, NJ]

Not to digress too much, but a neighbor had a fight with his ins.co over the manufacturer of the parts. Ins Co wanted to use cheaper aftermarket parts. Nissan said it voids the warranty to use anything but genuine Nissan. I don't know what the decision was, but the car still has it's crumpled fender and door.
Terry



[QUOTE=TonyM;649443]

Originally Posted by bart78

Most body shops are going to make their money off of fixing these newer cars. Just bolt a new panel on and paint it.
The[n] charge the insurance company what they want. QUOTE]

Bart, this just ain't true. I know first hand on two occasions already. Here is how Allstate settled a claim on my F-150 a few months ago: The insurance company adjuster/investigator examines the vehicle and generates an estimate which includes not only parts and paint but man-hours too. The claimant can then bring that estimate with him to the various body shops and find one that will / can do the work for the amount of the insurance adjuster's estimate. A check is cut and you the claimant are pretty much on your own. The Body Shop can't just charge the insurance company "what they want." That is not how it works.

[Skibb]

Well, I picked a "good ole boy" with lots of experience and got ripped off but good. If I quote you a number you'll cry all weekend. I've done that part, now back to work on the restoration. Profile has the sad story.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by luckyal

machine girl
All those problems and you still paid him. Now you know why the con artists prey on women ! Have your husband or boyfriend or father do the deal next time !
Al

............



I am not going to jump into the middle of this particular circumstance because there is generally two sides to every story. I'm not saying Machine Girl is right or wrong in this situation, I'm just saying assessing blame without knowing all the facts is wrong!! Also comparing a Collision Shop to a Restoration Shop seems like they should be very similar, however, they are really very different in most areas. Maybe it is worth noting that most experienced restoration shops work off of Time & Materials billing, and most will not give an overall estimate of the project. Not that they don't want to, ...it's just that there are too many variables.

One other thought to ponder. Most people in society today generally know the quality level they desire ...however most do not have the physical/mental capability, -nor available time to achieve that exact level of expectation. (Sadly I have found that giving advice to others is the easiest part.)

.

[bart78]

My understanding from a friend who owns a body shop. Tells me that the most of the cars that come in are simple. He said most parts unbolt and you just bolt a new one on. He says they are quick to work work on. And he makes good money off of them. His hourly rate is high. But he is fast. This is how he makes his money. The only work on old cars he will do is paint them. And when paper work is being signed it says in there that he is not responsible for anything that prior body work or prep would have caused. Said he has been screwed way to many times on painting cars black and they turn out like crap. Because you see everything. They are making good money off these cars. And things like those fenders cost so much because it would take longer to work on them than most of the new cars.

[Rock Hornbuckle]

Learning to 'pick and dolly' a dent is easy, so is learning to use body filler and sanding. Then use an experienced (at least 40 years) to put the fine touches on your work, and use someone good at spraying. I am fortunate to have life long friends that have built national award wining custom cars to do my work for me, and to teach me the basics. My friend Gordy Hanson was thrown out of George Barris' shop, when Barris learned that he built a car that took first place instead of Barris' car, back in the 60's. Gordy painted my '31 yesterday. The fenders will be painted this next week. I will post pics when it's done. I will also post pics of Gordy's '31 Murray Fordor. Gordy is 71 years old, and hasn't lost his touch.

[Terry, NJ]

I can't even get a number for the job of just final sanding and spraying. Every body wants T&M. A crook can hide a lot under T&M. I'm trying to get a retired body man to do it at my home and give me guidance. All I want from him is final sanding and then to shoot it. I'm doing the welding and the Bondo. No Biggie!
Terry

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

............



I am not going to jump into the middle of this particular circumstance because there is generally two sides to every story. I'm not saying Machine Girl is right or wrong in this situation, I'm just saying assessing blame without knowing all the facts is wrong!! Also comparing a Collision Shop to a Restoration Shop seems like they should be very similar, however, they are really very different in most areas. Maybe it is worth noting that most experienced restoration shops work off of Time & Materials billing, and most will not give an overall estimate of the project. Not that they don't want to, ...it's just that there are too many variables.

One other thought to ponder. Most people in society today generally know the quality level they desire ...however most do not have the physical/mental capability, -nor available time to achieve that exact level of expectation. (Sadly I have found that giving advice to others is the easiest part.)

.

[Roadster62]

In fairness to the people in the autobody trade could everyone please post the profession and hourly rate you recieve for your labor? Bob

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

I can't even get a number for the job of just final sanding and spraying. Every body wants T&M. A crook can hide a lot under T&M. I'm trying to get a retired body man to do it at my home and give me guidance. All I want from him is final sanding and then to shoot it. I'm doing the welding and the Bondo. No Biggie!
Terry

Terry with all due respect, it just is not that easy to do. Saying is one thing, Doing is much different!!

Everyone wants T&M because it is fair to both parties involved! As far as the "No Biggie", then might I suggest you do it all and make it look as good as the guy that has spent years perfecting his craft. Like you said, 'No Biggie'!

Originally Posted by Roadster62

In fairness to the people in the autobody trade could everyone please post the profession and hourly rate you recieve for your labor? Bob

Ohh but that is not fair Bob! Most people in other professions cannot accurately forecast the exact amount of time it takes for them to do their job ...yet they are expecting someone else to do that for them.

[Keith True]

Most retired bodymen are just that-retired.They are sick of it,if not from it.If you look on craigslist here in N.H. you will always find a dozen or so people looking for that retired guy to come out and work in their home garage.They just ain't out there,and if you do find one they act just like my father.He says,I'm retired,and will do your work,but at my rate,my schedule..He works more now 11 years later than he did when he retired.I've some ads from street rodders offering $30-$40.per hour to have guys come over and work.We did have an old fellow around here,Blackie,that would do work in peoples homes.It was all by the hour.He would never give a fixed price on any old car work.If somebody insisted on a set price he would just turn the work down.He died a couple of years ago at 82.When I was a kid there was always an old retired mechanic,plumber,electrician,carpenter,roofer,stea m boiler man,truck driver,mason,that would do little jobs for people.That's gone by the wayside.My father's been doing what he does for about 60 years now.Why would he want to work for somebody for a cheap rate to give them a bargain? Now I don't think he'd ought to be roofing at 77,but he likes the money.

[Roadster62]

Brent, as a Restorer who HAS won National Awards for your paint work, just how do you deal with the people that want a 2nd or 3rd rate finish on a "restoration". Personally it has always bothered me to be told by someone or a boss that "That's good enough, nobody is going to see it, put some paint on it." EVERY poster here will see it and expect FIRST rate work for CHEAP money. The only cars I think came out right are the ones I own. Bob