The making of a cylinder head

[George Miller]

I 'm making a cylinder head for my hill climb car. This is the start, so far mounting holes and push rod holes. If there is any interest will post pictures as we move along with the head.

[George Miller]

Here is another picture.

[craneygartz]

I would be interested in progress photos George.

John Oder

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by George Miller

If there is any interest will post pictures as we move along with the head.

Yes Yes Yes please

[Glen in Hillman MI]

Keep the pic's coming George. Glen

[George Miller]

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Its all setup to do the valve guide holes and then mill the combustion chambers in the morning.

[Jim Baskin III Pa.]

George to me it looks like there is 2 blocks of aluminum there.Is this correct? and if so,why?

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Jim Baskin III Pa.

George to me it looks like there is 2 blocks of aluminum there.Is this correct? and if so,why?

Without casting, you need two pieces to enable the milling of the water jackets, then put the two halves together.

George, it will be exciting to follow your progress! Please do!

[LeroyM]

Very cool! Will be watching.

[George Miller]

Without casting, you need two pieces to enable the milling of the water jackets, then put the two halves together. ------------------------------------------------------------ ----
Russ has got it right. When the milling is all done I will take it apart and mill the water jacket.

[1931 flamingo]

Keep the pictures coming, please. What is approx c/r you're shooting for?
Would this work on a "driver" and approx cost if making more than one?
Paul in CT

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Now this is what I come to forums for! Keep the photos coming!

[kp]

This is way above my head but interesting . Thanks for puttin it on the Forum!

[fordcragar]

I'll be watching as well. Thanks for sharing.

[d.j. moordigian]

George;

I have seen another head built the same way, the one with the Ardun valve cover.
What grade AL are you using, how are sealing the to half's, " O " ring spaghetti ?
The Ardun cover thing has right angle ports and wasn't a crossflow, what is your
set-up?

Thanks, Dudley

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Dudley, there is a man named Norm Frick out of Colorado that has been making heads using the same concept for a couple of decades. I first became aquainted with Norm about 15 years ago when he built heads for some Hudsons on the GreatRace. At that time he was charging $100 a cyl. hole to make them and would make it for anything that was a flathead. They worked great. Norm also manufactured 2p & 4p Rileys, the Model A/B Ardun head, single stick & dual stick McDowells, and other OHVs. What George is making will be just as awesome I feel sure!!

Muddying up the waters just a bit with what George is doing, I have one of John Lingo's OHV that he hand-made by welding together steel plating into a. OHV head. It runs awesome. Below is a picture of it when I was racing it in my track roadster.




.

[George Miller]

I have seen another head built the same way, the one with the Ardun valve cover.
What grade AL are you using, how are sealing the to half's, " O " ring spaghetti ?
The Ardun cover thing has right angle ports and wasn't a crossflow, what is your
set-up?
__________________________________________________ ______________

I plan on sealing with O rings.
Mine will be a cross flow

[George Miller]

Drilled 150" of metal and started on the combustion chambers. Now i will have to cc the chambers and find out how much more to take out. they are just ruffed in now.

[corvette8n]

Nice work I sure do envy you machinists.

[craneygartz]

4.250" and 5.3125" centers there George?

John Oder

[zzlegend]

Very nice George. Hope you keep us updated until its completed. Mark.

[George Miller]

Will do

[George Miller]

What is approx c/r you're shooting for?
Would this work on a "driver" and approx cost if making more than one?
__________________________________________________ _______________

Approx c/r 7-1
Would this work on a drive. yes
don't know the cost This will be the only one.

[Larry Brumfield]

Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour.

Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting.


Larry B.

P.S. I'd like to see an overhead made with Chrysler's Hemi design.

[George Miller]

Re: The making of a cylinder head
Hey George, I think you're worth about 75 dollars an hour.

Keep track of all your hours until you are completely finished and see what it comes out to. Should be interesting.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Larry That is a good idea already have 14 hours.
Maybe hemi next time

[tuneman]

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Beautiful work
My question is what gasket are you going to use
to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

P.S. I'd like to see an overhead made with Chrysler's Hemi design.

Do you really think it would perform that great? I was under the impression that hemispherical combustion chambered engines actually made their horsepower at higher RPMs, --which the typical Model A/B short block is not fond of. I would think a head copied from the Vortec design which creates its power in the low to mid-range (4k or less) would be better suited. Maybe not??

.

[Flathead]

A Flathead can make good power at low RPM too!

[MikeK]

With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder.

[Frank Miller]

Brent,
It is my understanding that the hemi allowed for bigger valves in a given cylinder diameter. I guess this would be advantageous at high RPM. But the hemi is really not a good design as far as combustion and flame travel are concerned. This is one reason Harley went to a bathtub design in the Evo motor when it discontinued the shovelhead. Builders of old shovelheads go to a 2 plug per cylinder configuration to compensate for this. The new Dodge hemi's have 2 plugs per cylinder also. I think it is a marketing thing more than an efficient design. Of course I would imagine that all out drag racing at 1 rpm before everything self destructs is a different story.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Do you really think it would perform that great? I was under the impression that hemispherical combustion chambered engines actually made their horsepower at higher RPMs, --which the typical Model A/B short block is not fond of. I would think a head copied from the Vortec design which creates its power in the low to mid-range (4k or less) would be better suited. Maybe not??

.

In my opinion the hemispherical combustion chamber is the best design for OHV heads regardless of the RPM. The design was used on engines in the late 1940's and earlier. Chrysler engineers proved in a lab experiment on a one cylinder engine that the Hemi design with its superior air flow and a compression ratio of 7:1 beat the L-head which required a compression ratio of 10:1 to achieve the same results.

Of course we're talking about an OHV but it also relates to flat head design. The above is an example of what I continually explain to people when they tell me that my 5.9 head or my 6.5 head must not produce as much power as old so-in-so's 6 to 1 head or 7 to 1 head or whatever simply because the compression ratio number is bigger. Not so. The air flow can make all the difference to a point where the compression ratio numbers are practically meaningless.

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.

BUT, the head's combustion chamber design and air flow characteristics must nurture it all to make it happen.


Larry B.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Flathead

A Flathead can make good power at low RPM too!

Are you implying the same as an OHV?

You may be right on that Larry as I don't have much experience in hemi chamber design except to know what we observed in kart racing.

[George Miller]

cc the heads, they are about 9-1 a little more than I want. Started the intake ports. They are a little hard because we have push rod holes and head bolts in the way. But that is what makes it fun.

[George Miller]

With no castings and no multi-axis CNC how will you get flow shape contours into the ports? That would be an awful lot of die-sinker type of hand work, measuring, and matching with burrs and an air grinder.
__________________________________________________ ___

What you say is true, but my head comes apart so I can machine it when they are apart. I used dowel pins so it can be put back together like it was before it is taken apart.

[George Miller]

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

[MrTube]

Arn't Duesenberg J heads from the 20's and 30's also hemispherical as well as many air plane engines?

To my knowledge Chrysler came up with the name "hemi" not the actual design.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

George,
Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Brent,
It is my understanding that the hemi allowed for bigger valves in a given cylinder diameter. I guess this would be advantageous at high RPM. But the hemi is really not a good design as far as combustion and flame travel are concerned. This is one reason Harley went to a bathtub design in the Evo motor when it discontinued the shovelhead. Builders of old shovelheads go to a 2 plug per cylinder configuration to compensate for this. The new Dodge hemi's have 2 plugs per cylinder also. I think it is a marketing thing more than an efficient design. Of course I would imagine that all out drag racing at 1 rpm before everything self destructs is a different story.

Hi Frank

There have been three generations of Hemi's built by Chrysler. The last one you speak of with two plugs was done mainly to satisfy the environmentalists (as they contemplate environmental issues and what's best for you and me while smoking their reefers). The two plugs shorten the flame travel which is supposed to lead to more consistent combustion and reduce emissions.

The combustion and flame travel in the Hemi are excellent. Moreover, the hemispherical or bowl shape allows the arrangement of the valves to be at an angle and this allows for huge air flow gains and also larger valves. It is, however, more sensitive to detonation because there is minimal quench but this can be corrected with higher octane. In addition, to help with complete burning the spark plug is centrally located so the flame will uniformly burn around the hemispherical shape. Also, the hemi or bowl shape allows the use of dome shaped pistons to adjust the compression ratio.


Larry B.

P.S. Are you still working with your b buddy at work? I'd be interested to know what he thinks of the current President, czars, etc.. But no discussion here, thanks.

[George Miller]

My question is what gasket are you going to use
to seal the head to the block? This looks like pretty simple straight forward machineing work! Might have to geta couple of my friends and try this. Also where would i get al block ,and what would be cost?
__________________________________________________ __
Go on line to SM speedy metals or call 1-866-938-6061
price 6061-T6511 about $400 7075-T6 about $860
I might try a head gasket from Miller high speed, Like the name.
Most of the time I use soft copper and O ring the head.

[George Miller]

Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Good question, I'm not sure it is not easy putting a olds 455 head on a, A engine. you have to move the mounting bolts which end up in the water jacket. Same way with the push rod holes, weld in a spacer block and stop exhaust from going through the center of the head.

Bill Stipe Put a chev v8 head on a Model A he had to do about the same.
We will find out when we are done which is easier. I'm thinking it is a 80 hour job to make this head. That is why Frick has to have big money.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Of course the best power is not the result of the head alone. Valve size, cam design, manifold design, carburetor size, etc., etc. all combine to determine the ultimate outcome.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Yes it takes it all to make it run fast. I agree getting the air in the chambers does the most good. If you get more air in does that raise the running cylinder pressure. I'm just a old country boy, wasn't that good in school.

Old country boy?

Old country boy my a$$ .... You're one of the most knowledgeable men this site has ever had! I ALWAYS can rely on your advice and so can anyone else.

Yes, about the running cylinder pressure. Optimized air flow raises the running cylinder pressure (or compression pressure as it is officially known but when you refer to it as compression pressure the average joker thinks you mean gauge pressure).

Compression pressure is what the engine actually sees and it varies in an engine every time the throttle is moved. It is determined by the cylinder head, compression ratio, valve size, RPM, manifold design, cam design, carburetor size, type of fuel, altitude the engine is running in, the temperature of the engine, the free flowing of the exhaust and any other thing I can't think of.


Larry B.

[Mitch Bunkin in PA]

I, too, am one of those who really appreciate posts like this. I have hardly any knowledge and even less skill in this area, but am really enjoying learning from all of you. Thanks for the time and effort you've taken to share with everyone.

[George Miller]

When I was a young boy I told my Dad that I could not do some thing. He said Son there is nothing in this world you can,t do, there maybe a lot things you won't do.
I never forgot that and he is right. The limits we have we put on our selfs.
You feel so much better when you go out and do some thing. My hope is this cylinder head thing will help some to get off their rear and try.

[Lawrie]

George, this is great, we are in the process of machining a set of solid heads for our Flathead V8 dragster and know how much work is involved.Lawrie

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Is this easier than making a banger head from a V8 head? I've spoken to Frick and he required big $$$$ for any of a dozen different OHV heads that he showed me. Your work/skill makes us envious. Keep up your great work! Rick
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Good question, I'm not sure it is not easy putting a olds 455 head on a, A engine. you have to move the mounting bolts which end up in the water jacket. Same way with the push rod holes, weld in a spacer block and stop exhaust from going through the center of the head.

Bill Stipe Put a chev v8 head on a Model A he had to do about the same.
We will find out when we are done which is easier. I'm thinking it is a 80 hour job to make this head. That is why Frick has to have big money.

George,
Yeah, You/Frick/Stipe are my images of what can be and inspirational for A/B incurable speed afflictions. I've seen your contributions in sharing freely with us here, over the years! I've watched Stipe grow also and have some of his great equipment(hmm, where's that OHV head..he keeps promising..see his site!). Please keep posting your progress on this project. And, thanks for all you've done for us in sharing your knowledge. lol Rick

[Flathead]

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QUOTE - BRENT in 10-uh-C Are you implying the same as an OHV?

No, not as good as an OHV but still good at lower RPMs. The flathead can still breath at lower RPMs. I don't think an OHV will help very much on a low RPM motor. Just my opinion.

[George Miller]

This is it for this week. Putting in the exhaust ports.

[George Miller]

Got the port runners in on one piece, next do the same on other piece.

[craneygartz]

George are you using all three axis there - like ramping down the runners rather than tilting the part up?

John Oder

[George Miller]

George are you using all three axis there - like ramping down the runners rather than tilting the part up?

Yes I was going to tilt the part but ended up just free hand it. I' m going to polish them any way.

[Droobie]

George this is really a treat to see. Most people dont get to see this stuff and for you to be doing it and showing us as you go along is great. I like to watch the machinest where i work do his thing on the bridgeport and lathes. it truly is amazing what you can do with them things.

[George Miller]

Update on the making of a cylinder head
Been working on the ports and water jackets on both pieces. Still have more to do on the water jackets.

And for you Larry B I have 43 hours in the head already and not close to done.

[George Miller]

Did not get much done today, had to mow grass.

Machining for a water pump, and taking away extra metal around the water pump mount. I'm at 47 hours on the head. I was thinking 80 hours for making the head. Looks like it will be close. Now if you had every thing you needed in tooling and a CNC it would be a lot less hours.

[craneygartz]

Sure looks like a CNC with the (?) ball screws and long saddle George......

John Oder

[George Miller]

Here are picture of O ring grooves for head bolts and push rod holes.
Also for you CNC guys a picture how we put on radius in the old days.

[George Miller]

Machined the spring pockets, and put in one valve to see how it looked.

[Larry Brumfield]

Well, about 52 hours or so, so far

Labor charge: 52 x 75.00


3,900 dollars

[Mitch//pa]

in my neck of the woods it would be 52 x 95.00

4,940 dollars


nice job george

[George Miller]

Put the head on the engine it is going on to see how it looks.

[Russ/40]

Will you be grafting a rocker arm assembly from some factory engine?

[George Miller]

Using chev V8 roller rockers.

[d.j. moordigian]

George,

That's an interesting block the head is sitting on.....is that your doing?

Dudley

[George Miller]

As you can see its a 4 port. Built it a couple of years ago. I'm going to use this head on that block for now. Later on will build a new engine for the over head, then put the four port back like it was. It runs real good.

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Here are picture of O ring grooves for head bolts and push rod holes.
Also for you CNC guys a picture how we put on radius in the old days.

George, Nice job! A really nice job! However, What breed of cat is that machine? It looks like a Bridgeport column, but I don't recognise the head. It's not a "J" and certainly not a "M". I left the trade in 1983 (My Back went out from all the leaning) So there's a lot of new stuff I'm not familiar with. CNC was just getting big then. Yep, That's how we did it! With a turntable and lot's of cranking!
Terry

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

in my neck of the woods it would be 52 x 95.00

4,940 dollars


nice job george

That was the shop owner's price. The guy actually cranking the handles and making the chips did get anywhere near that. Trust me!
Terry
PS how was the New Hope show after I left?

[George Miller]

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Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

George, Nice job! A really nice job! However, What breed of cat is that machine? It looks like a Bridgeport column, but I don't recognise the head. It's not a "J" and certainly not a "M". I left the trade in 1983 (My Back went out from all the leaning) So there's a lot of new stuff I'm not familiar with. CNC was just getting big then. Yep, That's how we did it! With a turntable and lot's of cranking!
Terry

It was a NC hydr Moog in its first life. I changed it back to manual screws. The main parts were made by Bridgeport. I got it for scrap price where I worked.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

That was the shop owner's price. The guy actually cranking the handles and making the chips did get anywhere near that. Trust me!
Terry
PS how was the New Hope show after I left?

ashame you couldnt hang around longer but it was nice meeting you. i got first and my friend took second. i was supposed to go sunday but with the threat of rain i bagged it. the next big show is buckingham in sept try to go alot more cars.

[George Miller]

Well the head is almost done, waiting on some O rings so I can put the two halves together. Then put in the valve guides and valve seats, plus the studs for the rocker arms. But I need to mount it on the block to get it in the correct place.
I will post a picture when that is done, Will need a head gasket to get the push rod length.
Larry it is going to be real close to 80 hours. It would be a lot cheaper to just by a head from you.

[George Miller]

Here is a picture of the head on the engine with intake manifold.

[d.j. moordigian]

George,

Looking good! Did you think about turning the carb 90% to balance the mixture front
to rear?

Dudley
PS....you need digitals, I quit counting 20 years ago.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

George,

Looking good! Did you think about turning the carb 90% to balance the mixture front
to rear?

Dudley
PS....you need digitals, I quit counting 20 years ago.

No did not think about doing it that way.
I had to save the money for the head so digital has to wait.

[George Miller]

Well I started the engine today for the first time. So far so good. Will do more with it Monday.

[George Miller]

If you look close you can see the smoke off the headers.

[zzlegend]

I get more impressed every time i read the updates. If it were me doing this i would not even be concerened about the hours. I would just be focused on the final job and knowing i did it myself. Thats got to be a good feeling when you tell people you made it form a hunk of aluminum. Fine job George. Mark.

[George Miller]

Well I did not get to take my speedster with the new head to the hill climb. Did not get all the bugs worked out in time. It is running fine now, will take it in the spring.
I ended up taking my blue roadster with the olds 455 head. At practice it ran the best time it ever ran 9.33. But then I broke a crank at 5000 rpm. It bent a rod and broke one of my new pistons,bent the oil pan. but did not hurt the block. Have another crank all most done.

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Well I did not get to take my speedster with the new head to the hill climb. Did not get all the bugs worked out in time. It is running fine now, will take it in the spring.
I ended up taking my blue roadster with the olds 455 head. At practice it ran the best time it ever ran 9.33. But then I broke a crank at 5000 rpm. It bent a rod and broke one of my new pistons,bent the oil pan. but did not hurt the block. Have another crank all most done.

I'm sure this is Apples and Oranges but we ran an 8.8 at the 66 hill climb with a Winfield flathead with dual Winfield carburetors . I haven't broken a crank since I installed a SBC dampener. I said Apples and Oranges as the grade is probably different as are the internals of the engines. But I also haven't found the need to turn the engine that high. This time computes to 3640 RPM's. This was with 5.30's in the rear end.

[George Miller]

Was ask some question about the head I made. So the easy way is to post this.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by corvette8n

Nice work I sure do envy you machinists.

I second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[George Miller]

For hardtimes

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by George Miller

For hardtimes

Ok George, I re-read the entire thread. Great read and lots to learn from it, thanks

[captndan]

And seven years later John Lingo is still going strong. I have dinner with him and his wife Rosa the first Monday of every month. Cool fellow.