The Ford Barn

nuwala · 02-14-2016, 02:04 PM

I have difficulties adjusting the rear brakes and believe the cause in the rear axle play. Most of the times brake drums get hot, despite the wheels spinning free without brake fiction when car is lifted. The temperature of the drums is measured with infrared thermometer to approx 250°F - 300°F when driving.

Left and right is about the same play in the axle, all measured with the hubs and drums mounted, and hub nut tight with 100Nm:
- vertical play - wheel up/down is 0,08"
- horizontal play - wheel forward/backward is 0,02"
- axial play - wheel in/out is 0,06"

What worries me is that difference in horizontal and vertical play. I have removed the hub and measured the diameter of axle race both in a horizontal, and in a vertical. The difference between horizontal and vertical was less than 0,04". So there is another 0,04" missing?

- What would be your recommendation?
- Time to change the rear bearings?
- Shall the axle race be changed as well? How to remove the old and install the new race? Can his be done with the axle still mounted?

JohnB15632 · 02-14-2016, 02:14 PM

One thing that I may suggest, but I am not sure. I myself have to figure this out. Braking between the front and rear is 40% front, 60% rear. Is it possible that the brake arms need to be adjusted to obtain this balance? Just a guess on my part.

Mikeinnj · 02-14-2016, 02:29 PM

Shall the axle race be changed as well? How to remove the old and install the new race?

Can his be done with the axle still mounted?

Unfortunately the race on the end of the axle housings must be turned down on a lathe and a new race pressed on.

tbirdtbird · 02-14-2016, 02:44 PM

" Is it possible that the brake arms need to be adjusted to obtain this balance?"

no

Purdy Swoft covered the difference between adjusting with wgt on and off the wheels several times here over the years
A search may be revealing

Tom Wesenberg · 02-14-2016, 03:27 PM

Is that high temperature after a hard braking, or after coasting to a stop?

If coasting, then the brakes are dragging way too much. Even after a normal stop they shouldn't get that hot.

Synchro909 · 02-14-2016, 04:31 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Who ever wrote the description in the attachment to the original post clearly doesn't know the difference between inside and outside nor top from bottom. The last sentence also makes no sense - unless I'm missing something but I've seen instructions from vendors laughably wrong on many occasions.
Does anybody else think this description is nonsense?

nuwala · 02-14-2016, 04:37 PM

The temperature of the rear drums go up to 250°F - 300°F when driving a 40mph for about 10 min and slowly braking. Front wheels go up to 90°F and never exceed 120°F

Tom Wesenberg · 02-14-2016, 05:15 PM

I would back off on the rear adjusters a couple notches, then try it again.

nuwala · 02-14-2016, 05:29 PM

Thanks Tom,

It does not really help to open the adjusters, i ve tried that before. The drums get even warmer when opening 5 to 10 notches. More than 10 notches and the rear brakes dont work.

And apologies for my English, it's challenging for a non native to find the right technical terms.

Brentwood Bob · 02-14-2016, 05:37 PM

What is the condition of the rear inner and outer hub bearings?
Bob

Pinesdune · 02-14-2016, 05:42 PM

Yeah it sounds like your rear brakes are dragging bad.
There are three areas for wear in the rear hub assembly: the hub wears internally, the stub on the axel housing as in post 3, and the bearing. So that's where your free play is coming from (except axel end play is internal in the diff)

Other guys are more knowledgeable on brakes than me here, but I'd say somethings sticking and not allowing your brakes to release hence the high temps on the drums

Looking for the front bumper emblem that has "Ford, Made In Canada"

nuwala · 02-14-2016, 05:46 PM

The bearings look fine at the first glance. I've cleaned and greased the bearings but have not removed it for the hub yet. Bearings seem to be original since there is still the original 1929 shaft seal.

Tom Wesenberg · 02-14-2016, 06:08 PM

I would remove the rear hubs and look for something dragging. Backing the adjusters off should let the drums turn freely.

700rpm · 02-14-2016, 06:09 PM

Can you take your hubs to a brake shop and check them for runout? Maybe they're thin and out of round?

Or,

Können Sie Ihre Naben zu einem Brems-Shop und auf Rundlauf prüfen? Vielleicht sind sie dünn und aus der Runde?

Your English is fine, by the way. How's my German?

DougT · 02-14-2016, 07:32 PM

How is the emergency brake adjustment? It would do the same thing.0

Chuck Sea/Tac · 02-15-2016, 12:23 AM

If it was the emergency brakes dragging, then that part of the drum (smaller front) would be hotter then the service brake area, (larger back).

wensum · 02-15-2016, 04:15 AM

I used the kit below with success which provides a sleeve to glue over the existing bearing surface and a new set of bearings with smaller rollers but the same outer diameter.
Keith

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-rear-wheel-hub-race-repair-kit.html

harleytoprock · 02-15-2016, 04:51 AM

Wensum, That kit restores the bearing surface in the hub.That bearing has the same ID as original and won't help a worn race on axle housing. The op may need this kit to restore the hubs if worn as well as the axle housing press on sleeve if that also worn.

Syncro909, If your refering to the attached vendor description for the rear axle housing race, I don't see any errors. It makes perfect sense. That race is pressed on the housing.

Pinesdune · 02-15-2016, 08:25 AM

Quick question, how much tilt can you get out of an assembled rear wheel assembly. IE. With everything together, if you grab the rear tire at the top or bottom and try to push it in towards the car and then pull it out, how much, if any, does the tire move?

Looking for the front bumper emblem that has "Ford, Made In Canada"

nuwala · 02-15-2016, 04:17 PM

The shoes only heat the inner brake shoe areas of the drum, emergency brake areas of the drum remain colder.

There is about 0.2" tilt with all assembled and full released brake shoes (adjuster out). The tilt is difficult to measure, as tilt and lift combine when moving the rear wheel.
When brake adjusters are tightened the tilt reduces to less than measurable.

After a sleepless night I was thinking of:
- Maybe it would help putting little grease into the brake shoe rollers?
- changing the retracing springs to add more force moving the shoes into the normal position?
- adjusting the brakes with standard car weight on wheels and axle rather that wheels lifter. This to be done on two barrels, similar to test stands for brakes?

02-14-2016, 02:04 PM	#1
nuwala Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Germany / Munich Posts: 36	best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? I have difficulties adjusting the rear brakes and believe the cause in the rear axle play. Most of the times brake drums get hot, despite the wheels spinning free without brake fiction when car is lifted. The temperature of the drums is measured with infrared thermometer to approx 250°F - 300°F when driving. Left and right is about the same play in the axle, all measured with the hubs and drums mounted, and hub nut tight with 100Nm: - vertical play - wheel up/down is 0,08" - horizontal play - wheel forward/backward is 0,02" - axial play - wheel in/out is 0,06" What worries me is that difference in horizontal and vertical play. I have removed the hub and measured the diameter of axle race both in a horizontal, and in a vertical. The difference between horizontal and vertical was less than 0,04". So there is another 0,04" missing? - What would be your recommendation? - Time to change the rear bearings? - Shall the axle race be changed as well? How to remove the old and install the new race? Can his be done with the axle still mounted?

02-14-2016, 02:14 PM	#2
JohnB15632 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Export, PA (Outside of Pittsburgh) Posts: 520	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? One thing that I may suggest, but I am not sure. I myself have to figure this out. Braking between the front and rear is 40% front, 60% rear. Is it possible that the brake arms need to be adjusted to obtain this balance? Just a guess on my part.

02-14-2016, 02:44 PM	#4
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? " Is it possible that the brake arms need to be adjusted to obtain this balance?" no Purdy Swoft covered the difference between adjusting with wgt on and off the wheels several times here over the years A search may be revealing __________________ '31 180A

02-14-2016, 03:27 PM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Is that high temperature after a hard braking, or after coasting to a stop? If coasting, then the brakes are dragging way too much. Even after a normal stop they shouldn't get that hot.

02-14-2016, 04:31 PM	#6
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Who ever wrote the description in the attachment to the original post clearly doesn't know the difference between inside and outside nor top from bottom. The last sentence also makes no sense - unless I'm missing something but I've seen instructions from vendors laughably wrong on many occasions. Does anybody else think this description is nonsense? __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

02-14-2016, 04:37 PM	#7
nuwala Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Germany / Munich Posts: 36	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? The temperature of the rear drums go up to 250°F - 300°F when driving a 40mph for about 10 min and slowly braking. Front wheels go up to 90°F and never exceed 120°F

02-14-2016, 05:15 PM	#8
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? I would back off on the rear adjusters a couple notches, then try it again.

02-14-2016, 05:29 PM	#9
nuwala Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Germany / Munich Posts: 36	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Thanks Tom, It does not really help to open the adjusters, i ve tried that before. The drums get even warmer when opening 5 to 10 notches. More than 10 notches and the rear brakes dont work. And apologies for my English, it's challenging for a non native to find the right technical terms.

02-14-2016, 05:37 PM	#10
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,246	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? What is the condition of the rear inner and outer hub bearings? Bob

02-14-2016, 05:42 PM	#11
Pinesdune Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 414	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Yeah it sounds like your rear brakes are dragging bad. There are three areas for wear in the rear hub assembly: the hub wears internally, the stub on the axel housing as in post 3, and the bearing. So that's where your free play is coming from (except axel end play is internal in the diff) Other guys are more knowledgeable on brakes than me here, but I'd say somethings sticking and not allowing your brakes to release hence the high temps on the drums Looking for the front bumper emblem that has "Ford, Made In Canada"

02-14-2016, 05:46 PM	#12
nuwala Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Germany / Munich Posts: 36	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? The bearings look fine at the first glance. I've cleaned and greased the bearings but have not removed it for the hub yet. Bearings seem to be original since there is still the original 1929 shaft seal.

02-14-2016, 06:08 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? I would remove the rear hubs and look for something dragging. Backing the adjusters off should let the drums turn freely.

02-14-2016, 06:09 PM	#14
700rpm Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 5,906	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Can you take your hubs to a brake shop and check them for runout? Maybe they're thin and out of round? Or, Können Sie Ihre Naben zu einem Brems-Shop und auf Rundlauf prüfen? Vielleicht sind sie dünn und aus der Runde? Your English is fine, by the way. How's my German? __________________ Ray Horton, Portland, OR As you go through life, keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

02-14-2016, 07:32 PM	#15
DougT Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 53	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? How is the emergency brake adjustment? It would do the same thing.0

02-15-2016, 12:23 AM	#16
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? If it was the emergency brakes dragging, then that part of the drum (smaller front) would be hotter then the service brake area, (larger back).

02-15-2016, 04:15 AM	#17
wensum Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: New Zealand Posts: 444	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? I used the kit below with success which provides a sleeve to glue over the existing bearing surface and a new set of bearings with smaller rollers but the same outer diameter. Keith http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-rear-wheel-hub-race-repair-kit.html

02-15-2016, 04:51 AM	#18
harleytoprock Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 438	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Wensum, That kit restores the bearing surface in the hub.That bearing has the same ID as original and won't help a worn race on axle housing. The op may need this kit to restore the hubs if worn as well as the axle housing press on sleeve if that also worn. Syncro909, If your refering to the attached vendor description for the rear axle housing race, I don't see any errors. It makes perfect sense. That race is pressed on the housing. Last edited by harleytoprock; 02-15-2016 at 05:13 AM.

02-15-2016, 08:25 AM	#19
Pinesdune Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 414	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? Quick question, how much tilt can you get out of an assembled rear wheel assembly. IE. With everything together, if you grab the rear tire at the top or bottom and try to push it in towards the car and then pull it out, how much, if any, does the tire move? Looking for the front bumper emblem that has "Ford, Made In Canada"

02-15-2016, 04:17 PM	#20
nuwala Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Germany / Munich Posts: 36	Re: best cure for vertical play on rear axle ? The shoes only heat the inner brake shoe areas of the drum, emergency brake areas of the drum remain colder. There is about 0.2" tilt with all assembled and full released brake shoes (adjuster out). The tilt is difficult to measure, as tilt and lift combine when moving the rear wheel. When brake adjusters are tightened the tilt reduces to less than measurable. After a sleepless night I was thinking of: - Maybe it would help putting little grease into the brake shoe rollers? - changing the retracing springs to add more force moving the shoes into the normal position? - adjusting the brakes with standard car weight on wheels and axle rather that wheels lifter. This to be done on two barrels, similar to test stands for brakes?