The Ford Barn

Init1 · 08-17-2014, 12:53 PM

My newly installed T-5 won't shift. Shifts fine with the engine not running.
Using 10" S-10 disc, stock ford throw out, New ford long arm pressure plate
Late flattie with hogs head and and 1" adaptor plate.
The disc is releasing.
Everything bolted up normally so I did not cut any off the end of the trans input shaft. Could that cause the problem? Anybody got an idea?

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 01:11 PM

Sounds like something is turning the input shaft with the engine running. If you have the space, might try starting it with the transmission in gear and the clutch disengaged (this is not a safe test!!!). If the input shaft is hanging up somewhere it might make the car start to move when the starter turns over. I would think that the input shaft is to tight or hung up somewhere, like the pilot bearing or the back of the crank. The input shafts are too long and extend past the pilot bearing, it may be hitting the back of the crank hard enough to make it turn. They need at least 1/4 inch cut off if it is hitting. Cornhuskers says 1/4 to 3/8 and then chamfer the cut end so it fits into the pilot bearing easily. Are you using a roller bearing or bushing pilot bearing?

Init1 · 08-17-2014, 02:46 PM

Using a bronze bush. I can see the disc turning through the inspection window in the bell housing when I put a crescent wrench on the throw out shaft and move it all the way forward
With the right rear wheel off the ground and me spinning it by hand and the trans in a gear.
And the engine off. I can see the throw out moving normally forward when I depress the clutch.
It could be the input shaft is touching the end of the crank causing it to spin all the time.
Good thought.
Any ideas?

35topdown · 08-17-2014, 03:04 PM

Your bronze bushing might be the problem. It has no lubricating properties. You need an oilite bushing. It is oil impregnated and is the material that OEM bushings are made from. The bronze will gall up on the shaft and grab it keeping it turning.

TomT/Williamsburg · 08-17-2014, 03:17 PM

You also may want to space out the T5 adapter with 2-3 washers to see if the snout where the t-out bearing rides is not too close to the p-plate. This is not usual for the 8BA and more prone to the 59AB but you are using a different p-plate vs the stock one ....

33cabriolet · 08-17-2014, 03:22 PM

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clutch is dragging binding syncro rings,adjustment is off or pressure plate is dragging

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 04:45 PM

I would pull the tranny and check the input shaft, but if you want to try some more testing, Tom's idea would be a place to start. Start backing the transmission out by stacking washers under each of the mounting bolts and see if there are any changes. If the input shaft is pressing on the crank it shouldn't take very many to back it up enough. If it is binding on the pilot bearing then this won't help.

Init1 · 08-17-2014, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 35topdown

Your bronze bushing might be the problem. It has no lubricating properties. You need an oilite bushing. It is oil impregnated and is the material that OEM bushings are made from. The bronze will gall up on the shaft and grab it keeping it turning.

It is an oilite bush from Speedy Bill.

George/Maine · 08-17-2014, 08:26 PM

Put it in gear and start it see what happens.
Could be bending splines of if you are to cut and didn't that's the problems.

gmc1941 · 08-18-2014, 08:28 AM

Can you shift thru any gears with the engine turned off? Did you pull the shifting lever and install when it was in neutral?

GreenMonster48 · 08-18-2014, 09:09 AM

Sounds like your clutch is out of adjustment. My truck did something similar with the new motor. With the clutch in, it would grind going into gear. I had to shut the truck off, put it in gear, then start the truck again. Ended up adjusting the pedal out.

Other thing it could be is that the bearing retainer may have to be trimmed a little, could be hitting the fingers just enough.

AnthonyG · 08-18-2014, 09:25 AM

A safer test to see if you are binding at the pilot without starting the engine to check for the amount of tension is slight or severe is to raise one side of the rear as it sounds like you've done already and put the car in gear and try to turn the wheel / tire which is raised. Have someone watch the engine to see if it turns as you turn the rear wheel, the compression should prevent this from happening if the binding is only slight. If slight could be that the pilot is just a little tight or got a little banged up while putting the tranny in. If the engine turns over against the compression or you can't turn the wheel / tire then the problem is as has been suggested and your input shaft is dead against the flywheel which will need to be removed and machined shorter. If you are able to turn the wheel / tire you can continue the radial action for several minutes and see if that frees things up. If so try to start the engine in neutral and see if you can get it in and through the gears.

If you are binding against the FW & input shaft this process may damage the end of the shaft slightly by galling but if the shaft was too long this will need to be machined off anyway and any galling which might occur on the FW will be at the bottom of the relief hole. That hole is there for clearance for the end of the shaft so the shaft won't be touching after you machine the end to the correct length so it really doesn't hurt anything.

I like the Idea Tom offers as a test only also but would not want to leave the washers which space it out as a permanent fix as the engine to adapter to bell housing is designed for max strength with all the perimeter faces mating with tension from the torquing of all the hardware. The strength with faces touching in the correct tension is significantly more than if only the bolts are securing with the washes spacing the faces from touching.

mollydog · 08-18-2014, 10:34 AM

I'm new to this T-5 conversion but in your post you said you are using a 10" clutch disc. I thought it was a 9" disc?? maybe you have the wrong disc and it is hanging up and not releasing? Just my 2c.

Mollydog

House of Fab · 08-18-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

I like the Idea Tom offers as a test only also.....

Only meant this as a quick way to see if that is the problem - never for a permanent fix ....

Also, the amount of pedal throw vs your configuration has also given me some problems - usually it's not enough and consequently you can't get it to shift ....

And regarding the last post with 10 vs 9 inch disks - the T5 adapter does not care whether you are using the 9 or 10" clutch setup as long as you are using the right clutch disk to match your p-plate: 9" for the 9" disk, 10" for the 10" disk ....

Sorry - this is TomT responding but I'm at House of Fab right now fixing my roadster!

AnthonyG · 08-18-2014, 01:17 PM

Definitely a good check Tom.

Barlea · 08-18-2014, 02:04 PM

If the crank is pre '51, it does not have the large hole in the center that was provided for the torque converter of the Fordomatic on all '51 and later cranks, and therefore may not have clearance for the long input shaft end. Could be the reason that trimming is only sometimes needed? ..B.

Jim NC · 08-18-2014, 04:35 PM

I had a problem with my roadster. Used a new 9.5" pressure plate & the fingers were too close on the release bearing & binding. Replaced it with a 9" from Dennis Carpenter & it works perfect after re-drilling the original Merc flywheel. I'm using Cornhusker kit.

35topdown · 08-18-2014, 06:32 PM

The clutch disk could also be bent. Easily done durning installation or shipping. The excessive runout will cause this problem . The pressure plate only lifts the plate about .040" off the clutch disk when released. So any runout over .040" will cause it to drag. An incorrect adapter plate thickness could cause the input shaft to drag on the crank, as already suggested. I owned a clutch shop for 30 years and saw this many times. Whenever we built a clutch, it would get spun on an arbor shaft to check for runout. They can be easily straightned by hand. Just use some chalk while spinning it to find the high spots. Another thing to check is the release bearing travel. Once the bearing touches the fingers on the pressure plate, it requires about 3/8"-1/2" travel to release the clutch. Some brands of disks also have the retainer rivets that rub on the flywheel. I don't think the flathead flywheel has this problem, but it it something to check. I assume you did not put the disk in backwards. The spring retainer should go to the rear, towards the pressure plate. Your getting lots of good advice from the forum, so you will eventually get it figured out.
Richard

Mike51Merc · 08-19-2014, 07:20 AM

Is the disc really releasing? Put it in gear and then start the engine with the clutch pedal pressed. Will it start without rolling? Is the clutch burning?

donald1950 · 08-19-2014, 09:33 PM

i have installed T-5s behind flat motors and c***y motors and what i have found in all cases that the clutch disk bottoms out on the end of the splines of the input shaft before the trans seats fully against the bellhousing. i had to take the preasure plate to my cluch and brake rebuilder and have the splined unriveted and re-riveted to the front side of the disk and also had them find a splined hub that has less offset to the trans side and more offset to the motor side. stock S10 hubs had this problem every time. to see, remove the hogs head inspection cover and remove the preasure plate and install just the disk on the input shaft, line up the trans on 4 long bolts with the heads cut off screwed into the bellhousing so the trans can be slid level slowly into place and see if the splines on the clutch disk bottom out on the splines on the input shaft before or just as the trans seats against the bellhousing i have had to do this on 4 different T5 installs as to release the disk there has got to be movenent of the disk on the flywheel with the trans bolted down tight. the last T5 install was in a 50 with a 350 crate motor, a nova bellhousing and the T5. so even being al chevy parts the S10 disk still had problems and had to be modified to work properly. if you want more info PM me and leave a phone # and i will call..... and i the same release problem as you.....

08-17-2014, 12:53 PM	#1
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. My newly installed T-5 won't shift. Shifts fine with the engine not running. Using 10" S-10 disc, stock ford throw out, New ford long arm pressure plate Late flattie with hogs head and and 1" adaptor plate. The disc is releasing. Everything bolted up normally so I did not cut any off the end of the trans input shaft. Could that cause the problem? Anybody got an idea?

08-17-2014, 01:11 PM	#2
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Sounds like something is turning the input shaft with the engine running. If you have the space, might try starting it with the transmission in gear and the clutch disengaged (this is not a safe test!!!). If the input shaft is hanging up somewhere it might make the car start to move when the starter turns over. I would think that the input shaft is to tight or hung up somewhere, like the pilot bearing or the back of the crank. The input shafts are too long and extend past the pilot bearing, it may be hitting the back of the crank hard enough to make it turn. They need at least 1/4 inch cut off if it is hitting. Cornhuskers says 1/4 to 3/8 and then chamfer the cut end so it fits into the pilot bearing easily. Are you using a roller bearing or bushing pilot bearing?

08-17-2014, 02:46 PM	#3
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Using a bronze bush. I can see the disc turning through the inspection window in the bell housing when I put a crescent wrench on the throw out shaft and move it all the way forward With the right rear wheel off the ground and me spinning it by hand and the trans in a gear. And the engine off. I can see the throw out moving normally forward when I depress the clutch. It could be the input shaft is touching the end of the crank causing it to spin all the time. Good thought. Any ideas?

08-17-2014, 03:04 PM	#4
35topdown Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 40	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Your bronze bushing might be the problem. It has no lubricating properties. You need an oilite bushing. It is oil impregnated and is the material that OEM bushings are made from. The bronze will gall up on the shaft and grab it keeping it turning.

08-17-2014, 03:17 PM	#5
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. You also may want to space out the T5 adapter with 2-3 washers to see if the snout where the t-out bearing rides is not too close to the p-plate. This is not usual for the 8BA and more prone to the 59AB but you are using a different p-plate vs the stock one ....

08-17-2014, 03:22 PM	#6
33cabriolet Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Graham WA Posts: 424	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) clutch is dragging binding syncro rings,adjustment is off or pressure plate is dragging

08-17-2014, 04:45 PM	#7
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. I would pull the tranny and check the input shaft, but if you want to try some more testing, Tom's idea would be a place to start. Start backing the transmission out by stacking washers under each of the mounting bolts and see if there are any changes. If the input shaft is pressing on the crank it shouldn't take very many to back it up enough. If it is binding on the pilot bearing then this won't help.

08-17-2014, 08:26 PM	#9
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Put it in gear and start it see what happens. Could be bending splines of if you are to cut and didn't that's the problems.

08-18-2014, 08:28 AM	#10
gmc1941 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Palatine, Il Posts: 486	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Can you shift thru any gears with the engine turned off? Did you pull the shifting lever and install when it was in neutral? __________________ 1939 Fordor Deluxe 1939 Ford Coupe Std 1940 Ford pickup Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.

08-18-2014, 09:09 AM	#11
GreenMonster48 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Enfield Connecticut Posts: 559	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Sounds like your clutch is out of adjustment. My truck did something similar with the new motor. With the clutch in, it would grind going into gear. I had to shut the truck off, put it in gear, then start the truck again. Ended up adjusting the pedal out. Other thing it could be is that the bearing retainer may have to be trimmed a little, could be hitting the fingers just enough.

08-18-2014, 09:25 AM	#12
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,166	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. A safer test to see if you are binding at the pilot without starting the engine to check for the amount of tension is slight or severe is to raise one side of the rear as it sounds like you've done already and put the car in gear and try to turn the wheel / tire which is raised. Have someone watch the engine to see if it turns as you turn the rear wheel, the compression should prevent this from happening if the binding is only slight. If slight could be that the pilot is just a little tight or got a little banged up while putting the tranny in. If the engine turns over against the compression or you can't turn the wheel / tire then the problem is as has been suggested and your input shaft is dead against the flywheel which will need to be removed and machined shorter. If you are able to turn the wheel / tire you can continue the radial action for several minutes and see if that frees things up. If so try to start the engine in neutral and see if you can get it in and through the gears. If you are binding against the FW & input shaft this process may damage the end of the shaft slightly by galling but if the shaft was too long this will need to be machined off anyway and any galling which might occur on the FW will be at the bottom of the relief hole. That hole is there for clearance for the end of the shaft so the shaft won't be touching after you machine the end to the correct length so it really doesn't hurt anything. I like the Idea Tom offers as a test only also but would not want to leave the washers which space it out as a permanent fix as the engine to adapter to bell housing is designed for max strength with all the perimeter faces mating with tension from the torquing of all the hardware. The strength with faces touching in the correct tension is significantly more than if only the bolts are securing with the washes spacing the faces from touching. __________________ Nomad

08-18-2014, 10:34 AM	#13
mollydog Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: bechtelsville, pa Posts: 36	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. I'm new to this T-5 conversion but in your post you said you are using a 10" clutch disc. I thought it was a 9" disc?? maybe you have the wrong disc and it is hanging up and not releasing? Just my 2c. Mollydog

08-18-2014, 01:17 PM	#15
AnthonyG Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Pa. Posts: 2,166	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Definitely a good check Tom. __________________ Nomad

08-18-2014, 02:04 PM	#16
Barlea Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: West Central Alberta Posts: 441	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. If the crank is pre '51, it does not have the large hole in the center that was provided for the torque converter of the Fordomatic on all '51 and later cranks, and therefore may not have clearance for the long input shaft end. Could be the reason that trimming is only sometimes needed? ..B.

08-18-2014, 04:35 PM	#17
Jim NC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: SE NC Posts: 446	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. I had a problem with my roadster. Used a new 9.5" pressure plate & the fingers were too close on the release bearing & binding. Replaced it with a 9" from Dennis Carpenter & it works perfect after re-drilling the original Merc flywheel. I'm using Cornhusker kit.

08-18-2014, 06:32 PM	#18
35topdown Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 40	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. The clutch disk could also be bent. Easily done durning installation or shipping. The excessive runout will cause this problem . The pressure plate only lifts the plate about .040" off the clutch disk when released. So any runout over .040" will cause it to drag. An incorrect adapter plate thickness could cause the input shaft to drag on the crank, as already suggested. I owned a clutch shop for 30 years and saw this many times. Whenever we built a clutch, it would get spun on an arbor shaft to check for runout. They can be easily straightned by hand. Just use some chalk while spinning it to find the high spots. Another thing to check is the release bearing travel. Once the bearing touches the fingers on the pressure plate, it requires about 3/8"-1/2" travel to release the clutch. Some brands of disks also have the retainer rivets that rub on the flywheel. I don't think the flathead flywheel has this problem, but it it something to check. I assume you did not put the disk in backwards. The spring retainer should go to the rear, towards the pressure plate. Your getting lots of good advice from the forum, so you will eventually get it figured out. Richard

08-19-2014, 07:20 AM	#19
Mike51Merc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Pennsylvania Posts: 1,582	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Is the disc really releasing? Put it in gear and then start the engine with the clutch pedal pressed. Will it start without rolling? Is the clutch burning?

08-19-2014, 09:33 PM	#20
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. i have installed T-5s behind flat motors and c***y motors and what i have found in all cases that the clutch disk bottoms out on the end of the splines of the input shaft before the trans seats fully against the bellhousing. i had to take the preasure plate to my cluch and brake rebuilder and have the splined unriveted and re-riveted to the front side of the disk and also had them find a splined hub that has less offset to the trans side and more offset to the motor side. stock S10 hubs had this problem every time. to see, remove the hogs head inspection cover and remove the preasure plate and install just the disk on the input shaft, line up the trans on 4 long bolts with the heads cut off screwed into the bellhousing so the trans can be slid level slowly into place and see if the splines on the clutch disk bottom out on the splines on the input shaft before or just as the trans seats against the bellhousing i have had to do this on 4 different T5 installs as to release the disk there has got to be movenent of the disk on the flywheel with the trans bolted down tight. the last T5 install was in a 50 with a 350 crate motor, a nova bellhousing and the T5. so even being al chevy parts the S10 disk still had problems and had to be modified to work properly. if you want more info PM me and leave a phone # and i will call..... and i the same release problem as you.....