The Ford Barn

35topdown · 08-19-2014, 10:20 PM

Donald - good point. I have run into that same problem also, but didn't remember to put in my previous post. Any good clutch shop should be able to reverse the hub.

Init1 · 08-20-2014, 12:28 AM

Thanks for your input. I will do some testing to determine if the clutch is releasing all the way. If not I will leave you my phone number so we can discuss what you have found.
This is the first time I have heard this in any of the articles I've read on T-5 conversions on a flathead or from any of the parts suppliers.

donald1950 · 08-20-2014, 08:40 AM

Init1, its not so much that "the clutch is releasing all the way", its that the disk is forced hadr against the flywheel when the splines on the disk's hub bottom out on the input shaft end of the splines and force the disk against the flywheel. that disk has to slide on the splines and once it bottoms out it cannot slide back from the flywheel and you can only see whats happening with the preasure plate removed and looking through the inspection cover hole while sliding the trans into place.... i also had the flathead flywheel drilled to accept a GM ball bearing poilet bushing as teh ford poilet bushing is SAE and the T5 piolet shaft is metric and useing teh ford bushing with teh t5 input shaft will allow the T5 input shaft to wallow in the slightly larger hole. thats is another problem. so much fun........

Init1 · 08-20-2014, 03:08 PM

Ok guys here's where I am:
With the motor idling at 600 rpm, push in the clutch with no noises, try any gear it will not go in. Will grind in reverse.
With the motor off it will shift into any gear with the clutch depressed and not depressed.
With the trans in neutral, start the motor and the car does not move.
With the trans in gear and clutch depressed to the floor, start the motor and the car
Does not move but a slight grinding gouging noise somewhere in the bell housing.
Let out the clutch and car moves.
With motor still running, shift into neutral but t h e shift lever is stiff.
I think something is too close to something causing the input shaft to spin
And not allowing the disc to move the correct distance.
Any more thoughts before I muster up enough energy to pull the tranny
And have a look?

V8COOPMAN · 08-20-2014, 03:24 PM

You've got it figured-out. SOMETHING is still rubbing, just enough to cause the disc to turn. Pull it apart! DD

supereal · 08-20-2014, 03:51 PM

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We used to have that problem when we installed a non stock engine with a bell housing adapter. The fix was to shim the face of the transmission one way or another and test for improvement. If the transmission is tilted even a very small amount, it causes the input shaft to bind.

JSeery · 08-20-2014, 03:58 PM

Yep, the problem is the input shaft is turning. Now all you have to do is figure it out. The one thing I would do before you pull it is back it out a little on washers and see if it makes any difference at all. It's an easy check that won't take much effort. You have lots of good inputs on here now to work on.

Init1 · 08-20-2014, 04:49 PM

Plenty of great info and thanks to all. I'll try spacing with washers first to see if that solves the problem.

Turdytoo · 08-20-2014, 04:56 PM

I used a weird pilot bushing in my turboglide crankshaft 327 w/ t-5. Finally got it to free up by starting it in gear with clutch in. Motor leaked oil from rear main like you never seen. Dropped pan and found that the input shaft after the pilot
area was cutting into the pilot bushing..... and forcing crank forward eating up thrust and then spinning main bearing. I have built more SBC than I can count but never screwed up this bad before.

donald1950 · 08-20-2014, 05:31 PM

bite the bullet and pull the trans and remove the preasure plate then slip the disk on the input shaft and you will find the disk is bottoming out on the input shaft splines. all what you say is exactly what i have gone through. that is what is locking up.....

Flat32 · 08-20-2014, 05:40 PM

I had a problem with the same symptoms. Turned out to be the clutch disc hub springs hitting the flywheel to crank bolts. Cut about .040" off the tops of the bolts. Also had a situation where the rivets holding the disc hub assembly together, Hay's 10.5 disc, were rubbing on the flywheel. Had to cut the flywheel recess ID a little bigger about 1/16" deep.

Flat32

Flat32 · 08-20-2014, 05:47 PM

Forgot to mention trans is a T5Z purchased new, crank is 4" Merc with a lightened Merc flywheel. Trans is bolted to a M.E.C. aluminum adapter on a 59 block and I had to shorten the input shaft a bit, maybe 1/2".

Flat32

JSeery · 08-20-2014, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat32

Forgot to mention trans is a T5Z purchased new, crank is 4" Merc with a lightened Merc flywheel. Trans is bolted to a M.E.C. aluminum adapter on a 59 block and I had to shorten the input shaft a bit, maybe 1/2".

Flat32

Did you and do you still think you needed the 10.5 in clutch plate? How heavy is the car it is in and what rear gear are you running? I'm not sure that the flathead has enough torque to require the larger clutch on a light car with a low rear end gear. I am looking a running a 9 inch, the lower the rotating mass the faster it will accelerated. Any real world input on the clutch size?

Init1 · 09-05-2014, 09:02 AM

Okay... pulled the tranny. Discovered the adjustment bolts on each of the arms are worn. One of them substantially thinner than the other 2.
This caused the portion of the bolts that protrude through the back
side of the arm to just touch the clutch plate springs making the noise heard when I depressed the clutch pedal all the way down
This also caused uneven pressure on the disc and would not allow the disc to fully
Disengage and causing the trans input shaft to continue spinning
No other signs of mis adjustment or damage. The shaft snout was not too long with plenty of clearance
Since the plate is original Ford I will have it rebuilt

Problem solved!

08-19-2014, 10:20 PM	#21
35topdown Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 40	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Donald - good point. I have run into that same problem also, but didn't remember to put in my previous post. Any good clutch shop should be able to reverse the hub.

08-20-2014, 12:28 AM	#22
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Thanks for your input. I will do some testing to determine if the clutch is releasing all the way. If not I will leave you my phone number so we can discuss what you have found. This is the first time I have heard this in any of the articles I've read on T-5 conversions on a flathead or from any of the parts suppliers.

08-20-2014, 08:40 AM	#23
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Init1, its not so much that "the clutch is releasing all the way", its that the disk is forced hadr against the flywheel when the splines on the disk's hub bottom out on the input shaft end of the splines and force the disk against the flywheel. that disk has to slide on the splines and once it bottoms out it cannot slide back from the flywheel and you can only see whats happening with the preasure plate removed and looking through the inspection cover hole while sliding the trans into place.... i also had the flathead flywheel drilled to accept a GM ball bearing poilet bushing as teh ford poilet bushing is SAE and the T5 piolet shaft is metric and useing teh ford bushing with teh t5 input shaft will allow the T5 input shaft to wallow in the slightly larger hole. thats is another problem. so much fun........

08-20-2014, 03:08 PM	#24
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Ok guys here's where I am: With the motor idling at 600 rpm, push in the clutch with no noises, try any gear it will not go in. Will grind in reverse. With the motor off it will shift into any gear with the clutch depressed and not depressed. With the trans in neutral, start the motor and the car does not move. With the trans in gear and clutch depressed to the floor, start the motor and the car Does not move but a slight grinding gouging noise somewhere in the bell housing. Let out the clutch and car moves. With motor still running, shift into neutral but t h e shift lever is stiff. I think something is too close to something causing the input shaft to spin And not allowing the disc to move the correct distance. Any more thoughts before I muster up enough energy to pull the tranny And have a look?

08-20-2014, 03:24 PM	#25
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,106	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. You've got it figured-out. SOMETHING is still rubbing, just enough to cause the disc to turn. Pull it apart! DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

08-20-2014, 03:51 PM	#26
supereal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) We used to have that problem when we installed a non stock engine with a bell housing adapter. The fix was to shim the face of the transmission one way or another and test for improvement. If the transmission is tilted even a very small amount, it causes the input shaft to bind.

08-20-2014, 03:58 PM	#27
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Yep, the problem is the input shaft is turning. Now all you have to do is figure it out. The one thing I would do before you pull it is back it out a little on washers and see if it makes any difference at all. It's an easy check that won't take much effort. You have lots of good inputs on here now to work on.

08-20-2014, 04:49 PM	#28
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Plenty of great info and thanks to all. I'll try spacing with washers first to see if that solves the problem.

08-20-2014, 04:56 PM	#29
Turdytoo Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Benton Arkansas Posts: 60	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. I used a weird pilot bushing in my turboglide crankshaft 327 w/ t-5. Finally got it to free up by starting it in gear with clutch in. Motor leaked oil from rear main like you never seen. Dropped pan and found that the input shaft after the pilot area was cutting into the pilot bushing..... and forcing crank forward eating up thrust and then spinning main bearing. I have built more SBC than I can count but never screwed up this bad before.

08-20-2014, 05:31 PM	#30
donald1950 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: san antonio, texas Posts: 461	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. bite the bullet and pull the trans and remove the preasure plate then slip the disk on the input shaft and you will find the disk is bottoming out on the input shaft splines. all what you say is exactly what i have gone through. that is what is locking up.....

08-20-2014, 05:40 PM	#31
Flat32 Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Federal Way, WA Posts: 95	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. I had a problem with the same symptoms. Turned out to be the clutch disc hub springs hitting the flywheel to crank bolts. Cut about .040" off the tops of the bolts. Also had a situation where the rivets holding the disc hub assembly together, Hay's 10.5 disc, were rubbing on the flywheel. Had to cut the flywheel recess ID a little bigger about 1/16" deep. Flat32

08-20-2014, 05:47 PM	#32
Flat32 Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Federal Way, WA Posts: 95	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Forgot to mention trans is a T5Z purchased new, crank is 4" Merc with a lightened Merc flywheel. Trans is bolted to a M.E.C. aluminum adapter on a 59 block and I had to shorten the input shaft a bit, maybe 1/2". Flat32

09-05-2014, 09:02 AM	#34
Init1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon City, Oregon Posts: 208	Re: T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running. Okay... pulled the tranny. Discovered the adjustment bolts on each of the arms are worn. One of them substantially thinner than the other 2. This caused the portion of the bolts that protrude through the back side of the arm to just touch the clutch plate springs making the noise heard when I depressed the clutch pedal all the way down This also caused uneven pressure on the disc and would not allow the disc to fully Disengage and causing the trans input shaft to continue spinning No other signs of mis adjustment or damage. The shaft snout was not too long with plenty of clearance Since the plate is original Ford I will have it rebuilt Problem solved!