Electronic Ignition Opinions Needed

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Actually, it is deeper than that. The first thing is Model-A engines today do not need to meet an emission standard like modern cars do. Second, compression ratios are higher in modern iron requiring a different type of coil than what most Model-A's use. Even with Nu-Rex timing indicators available, and Zipper distributors, I'd venture a safe bet that over 90% of all Model-A engines on the road do not have the correct (optimum) timing for the speed and RPM they are driving. The same can be said for fuel mixtures. Therefore having an electronic timing that is the same degrees away from optimum as a points triggered system boils down to the same. Since the Pertronix only triggers the spark (does not create a hotter spark), then the fuel combustion is the same with both units.

And, if we are to advocate the use of 21st Century technology on our restored Model-A, then how is it we are not advocating that each restored car have a padded dash installed, air bags in 4 separate areas, better bumpers, and many of the other government mandated items?

Society has "dumbed down" where people cannot install/adjust points now, --and folks were unwilling to provide proper maintenance so 'Detroit' had to figure out a way to do it for them. Our beloved Model-A has so many items that are supposed to be maintenanced on a regular interval so that adjusting a set of ign. points should be a regularly scheduled item no different than changing oil or adjusting brakes. Now please understand I am NOT saying that electronic ignition in a Model-A is a bad thing. All I am offering is the facts so that people can make good decisions for their own needs. My opinion (--based on quite a bit of experience with both sides) is that the typical Model-A engine does not perform better (i.e.: make more horsepower) with just the installation of an electronic ignition system. For those who do not agree with me, then state exactly 'why' it does and substantiate their beliefs.

[Kurt in NJ]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Points went away mostly in the beginning of emission controls because the emissions system was required to work properly and with a garrantee ---mostly without maintence, then the controlls became so complicated that the only way was with electronics

most modern cars have great reliability, and they go very long time between servicing, but when they stop they need towed to the shop, usually there isn't much that can be done along the road.

The stock model A has another kind of reliability, --most times it can be fixed along side of the road, when you try to add modern reliability you trade off some of that original reliability


Proper restoration with parts meeting original tolerances will eliminate most of the problems that create the "need" for modifications

Since I rebuilt my dist with NOS shaft and cam 35 years ago I havn't done anything but change the condenser 25 years ago, about every 1-2 years I surface and adjust the points ---those are still the ones that came with the car.

There are some owners that haveig electronic ignition is good, it can be an advantage for someone that can't do anything to a car if it stops and always have it towed to a shop wien it won't run.

For me an original properly restored system gives the best reliability.

I have run my car for emissions, it has passed the test we used to have meeting the requirements for a mid 80s car

[Bill Goddard]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

So Bill, you have heard from some of the happy FS owners, ...and we all know there are many "points users" here that successfully use points year after year yet see no reason to voice their opinion, --so have YOU made a decision??

I have read the evidence presented and have reached a verdict.
It is---------------------------I will stick with my modern points setup.
-I know how to maintain it
-spare parts are cheaper
-I have a new Stipe dist cam and new camshaft
-a new 5.5:1 head
I'm ready to go.
Thanks all for the great responses. Bill G

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

I agree. All I know is that my mileage increased by 4-6 mpg depending on driving conditions.
If the Kettering style was better, you can bet that the manufacturers would still be using it. Just my opinion, based on my experience.
My vote is for the FS system.
Chet

[jerry shook]

Thank"s brent & kurt. You are a lot smarter then i will ever be, i am an old country boy without a high school education. I have owned and been working on a"s for many years installed original point"s the modern point"s set up and new dist.( so i just know what i know ). Nothing has ever worked better on my a"s then electronic. Over 5 years no problems. God bless

[mrraford]

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I was wondering when somebody was going to get around to that point Jerry.
Many of us still use the original type equipment just because it is original type. We use the original setup rather than converting to a modern type replacement because it wouldn't be an original type Model A without it.

I realize that some things like cast iron brakes and fuse blocks are not original type equipment but the safety issues overrule the original thought on that one. I like to stop when I desire and I really don't care for fires under the hood.

I was looking at catalogs the other day and saw that a vendor is selling modern type distributor caps with modern plug wires. Those would probably make my A more reliable but would it still be a Model A? What about replacing the wheels and tires with more modern radial setups? How about power brakes, air conditioning, 12 volt conversion, 50 caliber machine gun mount? Would it still be a Model A to some of us or would it just be a reworked Shay prototype?

Hey it's your car! Do what you want to it but don't expect everybody to follow suit. For me, I am fond of seeing the old lady work the way Henry built it.

[larrys40]

Bill,
Sounds like your mind is made up... Everyone has their preferences..... FS Cheaper.. I would definitely say NOT! I do concur with Brent and Purdy that the original point/condenser ignition, properly set, timed, well rebuild/assembled distributor is the best... and if there should be a roadside failure... it can be troubleshooted and rectified quickly and easily...

I think that much of the problem today.. is that many are not comfortable and schooled at really setting the distributor point gap/alignment, and timing correctly. I understand that many (especially newer A owners) are not as confident.. but then it is about education... which is a good thing... than it is about the ability of the original system to perform as it was intended.
Just my 2-cents worth... and I will always keep my points! And be happy to help anyone on the side of the road with point iginition.... electronic....... well...... hopefully they have another distributor ready to go!
Larry

[marc hildebrant]

I do not see the reason for changing the igniton system from original.

If the reason is to have a more modern setup, then sell your Model A. The "improvement" to the igniton system can be continued to all parts of the car!

Marc

[jm29henry]

great topic my opinion is this if its been good enough for 80 years LEAVE IT ALONE!!! If you have a break down on the road what do you do ? if you have a problem with your points or condenser you can fix this very easy on the road. We had a member that left his ignition on for a couple of minutes .It caused the electronic ignition to short out .Luckily enough won of the other cars in the group had a regular distributor in his trunk we installed it and timed it and he was back on the road again plus the cost is over $100.00 dollars its not worth it to me.( BUT HE DID PUT A NEW ELECTRONIC IGNITION BACK ON ).Go figure all people are entitled to there own opinion.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

If points when set up right are as good or even better by some people belief , why don"t they put them in our new cars ? They would have to be cheaper and more reliable then electronic. Just wondering.

Let's turn that around a little. If the electronic distributor module is so great why don't they still use them? Both of my modern cars are now 11 years old and don't use them. The only car I ever had with that system from the factory had a module failure. Fortunately the car was at home when it occurred so I was able to diagnose it pretty quickly and pick up a replacement. As Kurt noted, the vast majority of modern car failures result in a tow to a shop.

Nobody that has spoken against the need for an electronic ignition in a Model A has suggested that it hasn't provided a significant improvement for some folks. All we are saying is that some of us can, and have accomplished the same result with the original ignition system.

[jerry shook]

Marco. It seam"s that a lot of people share the same felling"s as you do. And a lot of folks like the electronic, i guess that"s what makes the world go around. As for me i will stick with what get"s the best result"s for me.

[tbirdtbird]

Wow.
First no one said that there was a need to change to electronic. It, like many other things, is an option.
The earlier electronic modules on modern cars like the Ford Duraspark and the GM HEI system were total junk and prone to failure from day one. They are vastly different from today's electronics. (Pertronix uses the Hall effect). I had each of these systems on antique vehicles I had, they failed constantly, and I ripped them out and installed traditional kettering points distributers.
Even many A drivers using stock dizzy and points carry a spare dizzy, since anything can go wrong with anything at any time. I always did, and I still do.
And now according to some, if anyone has even one thing on the car that is not stock, such as perhaps TT10 plugs instead of 3X plugs, they are told to 'sell the car'
As with other modification questions here, I think it may be productive to find someone in your club who actually has the mod you are considering and ride with them so that you can see for yourself.
Many of the posts on the original question have not been that helpful and factual, but instead preaching from a soapbox.
Don't change that dial, viewers, 'cause there is more beating of a dead horse to follow!!!!

[AL in NY]

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 14
"Now with that said, the Pertronix unit is only a triggering system, ....therefore it cannot produce a hotter spark the coil does that."

Brent in 10-uh-C.....Post 4
"Therefore the risk involved in accidentally leaving an ignition switch on to cause a module failure,.........is just not worth the effort/expense on 90% of typical Model-A applications IMHO."

Brent, I have to take issue with both of your above staements. First, when the Pertronix module is used in place of points, it will produce a hotter spark because the dwell time is much longer allowing the coil to build up more energy to produce a hotter spark when the points open. This is the purpose of dual points, they keep the points closed as long as possible. Second, the newer Pertronix modules have been modified so they don't fail if the ignition switch is left on. I know is for a fact because I tested it myself.

The Pertronix electronic points module is extremely reliable when installed correctly (as per their instructions) and they eliminate the rubbing block wear seen on standard points. Your timing doesn't change over time and the hotter spark makes cold weather starting easier.

[MikeK]

Electronics, like mechanical systems, are only as reliable as the level of design to which they are built. Modern electronic ignitions are extremely reliable. The 6V Pertronix module, not so much. I see three, possibly four shortcomings with the Pertronix design that reduce it's reliability level:

1) The Hall effect switch remains ON driving the switching transistor to an on state if the vehicle is stopped, key switch on, with the sensor aligned with the trigger ring. This overheats the coil and drains the battery. A better design: Simple circuitry that would time out the drive to the switching transistor if the gate signal exceeds one second. It would turn itself off when the engine is not rotating. 50 cents in extra parts to do this.

2) The module itself can overheat and burn out, either in condition 1 above, or if used with coils less than three ohms (a two amp drive). The tiniest, cheapest, two amp max drive transistor was used to make it cheap to manufacture. The accompanying inefficiency of this drive transistor contributes to the heat that may cause self-destruction. A better design: Use an efficient (cooler running) higher amperage MOSFET driver, at least 10 amp rated, and use a finned heat sink base. Add another 50c to the cost. Now you could actually use a 1 ohm coil that produces a much hotter spark, and the thing would not get too hot. The old Duraspark and HEI modules were designed to drive at least 5 amps, not two!

3) Failure from voltage transients and noise. I haven't x-rayed, disassembled, or examined their simple circuitry, but increasing this to a "Bullet Proof" level with avalanche diodes, caps and two small MOV's would all add maybe another dollar.

4) Active dwell- Not in the standard Pertronix modules! Your coil is always driven past full saturation waiting for the 'trigger'. This make the coil run at full heat load all the time. Better: Simple, cheap circuitry to add this feature and extend the reliability of the coil beyond what you get with points. The RED 12V pertronix modules have this, all the 6V and the black 12V do not.

Obviously 1,2 & 3 above are dependent on the vigilance of the driver and the condition of the vehicle electrical system. Since nobody's perfect (yes, I've left the key on once or twice) and many A's are full of electrical shortcomings and glitches not everyone's experience with the Pertronix modules are the same.

For an electronics module to definitively surpass both the reliability and performance of a Kettering ignition system ALL FOUR of the above points would need to be addressed. "Modern" car ignition systems do this, Pertronix does not. Reliability relates directly to level of design build.

[Pete]

As Brent has noted, most model A "electronic" ignitions are just triggers.
While there will be some very slight improvment in quantity of spark produced due to the shorter field collapse time, you are not going to get a seat of the pants increase in power using the same original coil.
To realize the full advantage of an electronic trigger, the rest of the system needs to be added and that is the computer driven coil. These systems have feedback built in to sense each time it produces a spark. If a certain cylinder happens to lean out for some reason, the computer will adjust the spark to compensate for the next time that cylinder fires. If the problem goes away, the spark goes back to normal.
The advance/retard is done automatically as needed/programmed. Auto retard can be set also for blower applications.

MikeK is spot on about the shortcomings of the Pertronix unit. Too many modern designers will design a part with a certain percentage of failures in mind, rather than ZERO failures.
They can't get it through their heads that PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR QUALITY.

On the other side of the coin, points triggers can be made very reliable with ball bearing shafts and modified cam design. Some, such as the RotoFaze standard model distributor, use OEM Ford points available at almost any parts store in the country and are capable of racing performance at 10000 rpm. Another advantage of a mechanical system is you don't have to
be computer savvy to adjust the auto advance weights.
For street use, almost any system you choose is going to have some mechanical components involved such as distributor shaft bearings and drive gears. EVERYTHING must be within tolerance to work properly.

[RobertB]

Related question...I've added an MSD module (capacitive discharge) on each of the British cars I have owned and had very satisfying experiences.

On the MGB, I invested in a Pertronix distrubutor that never worked and was not backed by the supplier. I installed a "new" standard distributor and that helped, but nothing like the change when I added the MSD.

Has anone done this to their Model A? The MSD kits come for 4, 6, and 8 cylinders...wouldn't the 4 cylinder work on the A engine? A new coil installed with it is a given.

RBH
New to my 31 A, but old to cars of many types.

[denis4x4]

Just to muddy the waters, the original Ignitor electronic ignition system (Petronix) was designed to operate 24/7 on pump engines, refrigeration, compressors, etc. I used them on at least a dozen cars and two boats over the past 30 years. One failure was self inflicted.

While I appreciate the people here that want to keep their cars absolutely the way Henry made them, I appreciate Henry's efforts to think outside the box and look for new and better ways to build a car and improve it's performance. I suspect that Edsel would have had an FS ignition on his speedster!

[Vicky]

I use FSI Distributers in my Model As and I am very satisfied with their performance and reliability. I understand that the coil delivers the spark to the plugs, so like has been stated, so the solid state doesn't really provide any improvement in that regard. The main difference for me is the centrifugal advance. Many owners with stock Model A Distributors I know retard the spark to start the engine, then once started, advance the spark to a specific position, then leave it there regardless of the speed (RPM) they are running. The FSI Distributor advances based on engine RPM. I realize I could use a Model B, Mallory or other more modern distributor to achieve the centrifugal advance but this works best for me.

You many disagree, but I am fine with FSI.

[31Tudor]

The only time I have never gotten home on my own power, or a fix on the road was a failure of the electronic ignition. It was a roll back that day. One failure and I will never go back, points for me.

[Richard Wilson]

If you buy one electronic ignition system go ahead and buy a second to have as a spare and carry it with you. There is NO roadside repair or adjustment on these units and no way that I know of to bypass them. My opinion is from my personal experience when a fellow club member had one burn out 200 miles from home. The unit only had about 500 miles when it failed. It ran great right up to the point that it shut down without warning. We were back in the mountains about 50 miles from the nearest town. Luckily one of the guys on the tour had packed an extra distributor with points that we could install.