Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2019, 04:47 PM   #1
marty in Ohio
Senior Member
 
marty in Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 614
Default axle key

Model A friend, Bob, pulled off the rear hubs from his '29 tudor today and found that the axle keys were stamped with the Ford script logo. Do you guys think these keys were original? We can't seem to get a picture to post, but were wondering if these are common. Both keys were in very good shape.
Marty
marty in Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2019, 05:31 PM   #2
WHN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,234
Default Re: axle key

I don’t know about the Ford name on keys, but please don’t forget to re-torque the axel nuts to 100 foot pounds when you put it back together. Enjoy.
WHN is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-13-2019, 11:36 AM   #3
barnstuf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cape Cod MA
Posts: 2,840
Default Re: axle key

The FORD name would indicate they were made by Ford Motor Company. Whether original to the 1929 in question will be hard to prove as during the early 1930's, the height of the depression years, The Ford Motor Company had an advertising campaign urging owners to bring their Fords to a Ford dealer for repairs using genuine Ford parts. The parts sold by dealers at that time, to the replacement market, were marked with Ford name, the part number, or both.
barnstuf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2019, 11:50 AM   #4
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,456
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty in Ohio View Post
Model A friend, Bob, pulled off the rear hubs from his '29 tudor today and found that the axle keys were stamped with the Ford script logo. Do you guys think these keys were original? We can't seem to get a picture to post, but were wondering if these are common. Both keys were in very good shape.
Marty
If the axle nuts were kept tight throughout the car's existence, the original keys will last indefinitely as they are merely going along for the ride. The taper of the hub and axle shaft is what handles the load, not the keys. Consider machine tools, like a Bridgeport mill. They use what is called a Morse taper to drive a cutter, etc. without any key at all. The tight fit of the taper does it all.
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 07:03 AM   #5
marty in Ohio
Senior Member
 
marty in Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 614
Default Re: axle key

Thanks for the responses guys. As soon as we receive the fiber washers we'll put it back together again. 100 foot pounds, got it!
Marty
marty in Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 09:11 AM   #6
Ray in La Mesa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: La Mesa Ca
Posts: 860
Default Re: axle key

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I've found a couple script axle keys too. Also just came across a lower water inlet casting that is Ford script, also has a small triangle manufacturer's mark. Anybody know any history on it?
Ray in La Mesa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2019, 11:31 AM   #7
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,914
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty in Ohio View Post
Thanks for the responses guys. As soon as we receive the fiber washers we'll put it back together again. 100 foot pounds, got it!
Marty
Don't forget the hardened steel flat washers.
__________________
Play it again Sam.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 07:07 AM   #8
marty in Ohio
Senior Member
 
marty in Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 614
Default Re: axle key

Katy,
Yup, got 'em.
Marty
marty in Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 07:11 AM   #9
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,047
Default Re: axle key

100 ft-lbs on a taper??? Way too much torque in my opinion. The taper centers the axle and the shear key reacts the driveline torque. What is important is that the shear key have a snug fit (no play).
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 07:50 AM   #10
WHN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,234
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
100 ft-lbs on a taper??? Way too much torque in my opinion. The taper centers the axle and the shear key reacts the driveline torque. What is important is that the shear key have a snug fit (no play).
One of the great things about this forum is all the different views members have and sometime voice.

I guess you could refer to the rear axel key as a “shear key”, but I don’t believe that is correct. The torque on the rear axel taper along with the key guidance is what makes things work.

These are not like shear pins on snowthowers or outboard motors. They are guides.

Please check the factory spec’s. One of the quickest ways to break a key is to incorrectly torque rear axel nut. Enjoy.
WHN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 09:20 AM   #11
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,047
Default Re: axle key

Remove the shear key and the Model A will not go. The axle will spin in the drum because the friction of the tapered axle-drum hub cannot react the driveline torque.
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 09:44 AM   #12
WHN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,234
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
Remove the shear key and the Model A will not go. The axle will spin in the drum because the friction of the tapered axle-drum hub cannot react the driveline torque.
Bob:

I agree. If key is removed/broken and torque on taper is to loose, car will not move. If torqued properly, car will still move even without key. However, the axel will eventually start spinning in hub and car will stop.

One of the reasons that axel keys break is to little torque on axel nuts which allows the hub to move on the axel straining the key.

I do not agree with you on this being a shear key/pin. You need the correct torque on the axel. That is one of the reasons a wheel puller is needed to remove the rear hubs. Wheel wobble is another reason for proper torque. The key also keeps the wheel from turning on axel when tightening the axel nut.

I have an orginal service manual. It states 100 foot pounds of torque, plus or minus. Some adjustment is needed to get the cotter pin in.

Loose rear axel nuts break keys, and cause ware on axels and hubs. Enjoy.
WHN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 09:53 AM   #13
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,914
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
100 ft-lbs on a taper??? Way too much torque in my opinion. The taper centers the axle and the shear key reacts the driveline torque. What is important is that the shear key have a snug fit (no play).
The problem w/anything less than 100 ft-lbs is the sideways flexing strain on the taper when going around corners.
__________________
Play it again Sam.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 11:23 AM   #14
Bob C
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 7,212
Default Re: axle key

I believe it's the taper that transmits the torque not the key. The Model A generator has no key, also look at machine tools such as lathes and mills.


Bob
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jacobs taper.jpg (37.0 KB, 18 views)
Bob C is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 12:36 PM   #15
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,456
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
I believe it's the taper that transmits the torque not the key. The Model A generator has no key, also look at machine tools such as lathes and mills.


Bob
This is correct!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2019, 01:30 PM   #16
larrys40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: St Charles , Missouri
Posts: 1,783
Default Re: axle key

yes the Ford script key is an original ford or service replacement. Per service bulletins Ford used the Ford script on many service parts so customers knew they were getting genuine Ford parts. They specifically call out "gyp" parts in the service bulletins


I don’t hesitate with good threads to torque to 125 ft lbs.
I’ve seen too many damaged axles and hubs from being loose and undertorqued. I’ve gone to 150 without any issues. I pull hubs and drums every week on cars and more often than not they are too loose. Compromised axle threads can be taken into account but should ultimately be replaced anyway.

Key ways must be tight and threads good and adequate torque applied.
Not trying to be against a few but if You guys who don’t want keys just remove them from your pinion gear and hubs and run them with the taper fit.
Larry shepard

Last edited by larrys40; 03-15-2019 at 09:48 PM.
larrys40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2020, 09:14 PM   #17
1928Mustang
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: axle key

Well said
1928Mustang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2020, 02:24 PM   #18
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 6,010
Default Re: axle key

We had to fire a mechanic decades ago for a similar reason. Its not the only reason he got fired, he insisted on changing valve cover gaskets, carburetors, etc. with his air gun. He would pick the cars up on the lift by the bumpers. He would leave the rear hubs loose so they could be pulled off easily. He insisted that the key was all that was needed to carry the load. We got sick of making so many tow calls and our customers weren't very happy. So we made him go on the service call and fix the car right where it broke on his own time which still didn't teach him a lesson. After awhile it was still time to let him go.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2020, 02:46 AM   #19
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,406
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
We had to fire a mechanic decades ago for a similar reason. Its not the only reason he got fired, he insisted on changing valve cover gaskets, carburetors, etc. with his air gun. He would pick the cars up on the lift by the bumpers. He would leave the rear hubs loose so they could be pulled off easily. He insisted that the key was all that was needed to carry the load. We got sick of making so many tow calls and our customers weren't very happy. So we made him go on the service call and fix the car right where it broke on his own time which still didn't teach him a lesson. After awhile it was still time to let him go.
Ignorant and arrogant is a bad combination!
__________________
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a mystery.
Enjoy Today.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2020, 07:27 AM   #20
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 6,010
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
Ignorant and arrogant is a bad combination!
LOL. Yep.

Same guy. We got a service call and I went. Super cold morning and a Detroit 71 series wouldn't start. Big surprise huh. I pull up and this clown has the mouth flipped open and is grabbing and firing up the rose bud. The driver is standing next to him, I just kinda grab him by the arm and pull him back with me. This monkey starts waving that torch along the engine block to warm it up. Of course as was common in the day was a big ass can of ether mounted on the firewall. That tells me the engine is already ether bound. It didn't take long and the side of that engine came apart, blew the tire right off the rim and broke his arm in a couple places.
So, I then had to take him to the hospital and then tow the truck to the shop and change an engine.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2020, 08:38 AM   #21
jquinlan
Member
 
jquinlan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Foley, Al
Posts: 99
Default Re: axle key

I recently bought a 29 Fordor and went over it pretty thoroughly before taking her on a trip last month. It seemed like it was in really good shape and had a beautiful engine. One thing I didn't check was the torque of the rear hubs. Unfortunately the guy I bought it from probably didn't hear about torqueing to 100 pounds. The car seemed to run great during the trip to northern Alabama where we were going to meet up with a new MARC club and tour in the mountains.

After driving 275 miles the axle sheared right off !!! The hub had a ton of wear inside and also had to be replaced. Needless to say it was an interesting trip and I met the coolest Alabama Model 'A' folks in the world who helped us make the tour.

Jim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_9163.jpg (42.3 KB, 36 views)
__________________
Jim
Foley, Alabama
jquinlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2020, 08:49 AM   #22
Mike Peters
Senior Member
 
Mike Peters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South East Wisconsin
Posts: 896
Default Re: axle key

Same guy. We got a service call and I went. Super cold morning and a Detroit 71 series wouldn't start. Big surprise huh. I pull up and this clown has the mouth flipped open and is grabbing and firing up the rose bud. The driver is standing next to him, I just kinda grab him by the arm and pull him back with me. This monkey starts waving that torch along the engine block to warm it up. Of course as was common in the day was a big ass can of ether mounted on the firewall. That tells me the engine is already ether bound. It didn't take long and the side of that engine came apart, blew the tire right off the rim and broke his arm in a couple places.
So, I then had to take him to the hospital and then tow the truck to the shop and change an engine.
Patrick L. is offline Report Post


WOW! Lucky the guy was't killed. I have an 8-71 Detroit in an old grain truck. I always plug in the block heater on cold days. No ether. Scary story.

Back to the main subject, I just acquired a 31 Fordor and pulled the rear drums for inspection of brakes. After removing the axle nut cotter pin, I discovered that the axle nut was only finger tight. No hub damage that I could see, but very glad I discovered the loose nuts before something dire occurred.
Mike Peters is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-26-2020, 12:48 PM   #23
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 6,010
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peters View Post
Same guy. We got a service call and I went. Super cold morning and a Detroit 71 series wouldn't start. Big surprise huh. I pull up and this clown has the mouth flipped open and is grabbing and firing up the rose bud. The driver is standing next to him, I just kinda grab him by the arm and pull him back with me. This monkey starts waving that torch along the engine block to warm it up. Of course as was common in the day was a big ass can of ether mounted on the firewall. That tells me the engine is already ether bound. It didn't take long and the side of that engine came apart, blew the tire right off the rim and broke his arm in a couple places.
So, I then had to take him to the hospital and then tow the truck to the shop and change an engine.
Patrick L. is offline Report Post


WOW! Lucky the guy was't killed. I have an 8-71 Detroit in an old grain truck. I always plug in the block heater on cold days. No ether. Scary story.

Back to the main subject, I just acquired a 31 Fordor and pulled the rear drums for inspection of brakes. After removing the axle nut cotter pin, I discovered that the axle nut was only finger tight. No hub damage that I could see, but very glad I discovered the loose nuts before something dire occurred.


I miss those old 2 stroke Detroits. I thought they were great engines but they didn't like starting in real cold weather without some type of help.


Its surprising the things one sees working on these old monsters.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2020, 09:17 PM   #24
bbrocksr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yakima Washington
Posts: 644
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
Remove the shear key and the Model A will not go. The axle will spin in the drum because the friction of the tapered axle-drum hub cannot react the driveline torque.
Wrong Bob, The taper drives it. Why do you have to use a puller to get the hub and drum off.

Bill
bbrocksr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2020, 07:44 AM   #25
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 6,010
Default Re: axle key

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrocksr View Post
Wrong Bob, The taper drives it. Why do you have to use a puller to get the hub and drum off.

Bill


Don't tighten that nut as it should be and the hub can be pulled off by hand. Thats why some folks think they can leave that nut loose thinking the key will do all the driving.
Patrick L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:31 PM.