Transmission Noise?

[BillCNC]

Hey All,

When the temp is in the 30's my transmission makes whirling noises when place in neutral and coasting. When it slows to about 15 mph, it almost sounds like bearings clicking while rotating freely in your hand. Once the temp gets in the 40's it's fine, no noises.

Transmission has 3500 miles on it after being rebuilt in early 2018. All bearings, shafts, gear cluster and 2nd gear was replaced. It does it with 600w, Lucas 85w-140 and Mobile 85-140.

Regards
Bill

[Bob Bidonde]

Mine does the same while coasting in 2nd with the clutch disengaged. I live with it.

[Oldbluoval]

Rebuild parts USA or foreign?

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

Rebuild parts USA or foreign?

Haha, ..., your guess is as good as mine, who knows these days.

I did have to rework the main shaft to get the gears on. The radii on the shaft was not to spec and I had to scrape them in. I couldn't get the gears on even after picking the best one they had myself at CW Moss. I used the same technique as used when scraping the ways on a lathe or mill.

Regards
Bill

[Oldbluoval]

My suspicions is that you just answered the question on the noise.
Who knows??

[Bob Bidonde]

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I have 1000 miles on the transmission since replacing the bearings. The noise persists without change in its level, and the transmission works fine. In this case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Joe K]

My experience is that the three "needle" bearings on cluster gear and between the front and rear shafts as typically found are "junque."

The originals were Hyatt type bearings with rollers made more like springs and hollow, and the cage that held the spring/roller parts apart had shafts that pass through the center of the spring/roller.

Today's production is one of two kinds, and neither work well. It can be cages containing solid rollers with "nubs" on the ends of the roller - as long as the cage holds together the rollers are constrained. OR It can be hollow roller tubes similar to the original Hyatt bearings and carried "shaft thru" as the Hyatt was. Of these two the second is preferred if the parts fit is good. Slop (i.e. re-using original parts with new bearing) introduces angular misalignment for either type and leads to early fail on either of these.

The beauty of the Hyatt type needle bearing was it was "forgiving" of wear and misalignment.

I bought three Hyatt type needle/roller bearings on Ebay as NOS for small money - and thought I had hit gold.

Joe K

[Tom Endy]

The three roller bearings on the market today are of an inferior design and will fail in a few hundred miles.

https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf

Tom Endy

[Dino's A]

Maybe it's time to investigate a bearing, maybe even a sealed one that can
fit or maybe bore out the cluster also to fit? My WWII jeep transmission
cluster has these type of rollers. Maybe the same size if we are lucky???

Maybe it's time for the parts vendors to make up a kit of different bearings to combat this as well.

[Joe K]

Maybe it's time for the parts vendors to make up a kit of different bearings to combat this as well.

The problem is one of "sourcing." Also "progress."

The Hyatt type bearings were state of the art in 1928. As the automotive application expanded and refined, it was found that a regular "Torrington" type needle could serve the same application - and still achieve the warranty miles.

My mind goes back to the 2003 VW TDI Golf of my ownership which came with a 100K Drivetrain warranty. When I came in for a front wheel bearing replacement ("cartridge" type bearing) at 97K, I got all sorts of dirty looks from the Service Manager. (Like "why do you exist?" And "you expect me to provide a car that will last the warranty interval at MY cost?")

When I experienced the SECOND front wheel bearing failure at 107K miles, I didn't bother to have the dealership do it, instead learning what was required and doing it myself. The $120 VW bearing actually costs only $26 at AutoZone - same bearing same four circles. You get ONE chance to press the bearing onto the front swivel, it has to be right otherwise you destroy the bearing in its removal.

But THIS is the state of the automotive art. The engineers have figured EXACTLY what is required to make your car reach the warranty duration, and they sell you exactly that and no more than that.

And Hyatt Bearings and the supporting design probably give too much life.

With the drop-off in demand for Hyatt Bearings, I expect the company has folded, or been absorbed into someone else. (more below) Since there is no real market, there are no real bearings of this pattern - or at least a very limited selection.

Imports (a large part of the Model A sources) another problem similar - and these without even an attempt at product liability OR reliability. I often wonder if the foreign suppliers look upon their version of parts/bearings as "occupies the space" and "Nobody really relies on these anyway."

Wikipedia has a fairly good description of Hyatt Bearing the company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_...earing_Company

As of 1934 Hyatt Roller Bearings were being used in industrial equipment for mining, oil fields, textiles, steel mills, road building, power transmission, farm machinery and railroad cars as well in automobiles.[11] The New Departure Division and the Hyatt Bearing Division were merged into the New Departure-Hyatt Bearing Division in 1965. In 1986 this division stopped making commercial ball bearings but continued to manufacture high-precision bearings for aircraft engines. After further divisional mergers, bearing manufacture ceased in 1993. As of 2013 the Hyatt brand was owned by General Bearing Company of New York[6]- a division of SKF bearing company.[17]

So I guess you could say they're still out there - but parts vendors are not accessing this source. The Model A designs may be obsolete in General Bearing/SKF view. (Limited market.)

Joe K

[Dino's A]

When I mentioned that possibly the WWII Jeep might share these type of bearings is here:
https://www.rfjp.com/images/Product/medium/689.jpg (See specs below)

These are used in the transfer case. Two are used. A 3/4" shaft is used. Later year military jeeps used bigger diameter shafts, so maybe a Model A cluster can be bored
to accept the jeep ones. I don't know. I guess I'll approach this problem sooner or later.
Here is the description from a good Jeep vendor, Ron Fitzpatrick Jeep parts (G503.com)

Dana 18 transfer case intermediate shaft cage bearings, .75" diameter

MB GPW early CJ2a
2 required per transfer case

highest quality Baltzer bearing Co

inside diameter: .75 inch or 19.05 mm
outside diameter: 1.25 inch or 31.75 mm
width: 1.3281 inch or 33.73 mm

[katy]

Thanks for the info, but, do the Baltzer bearing Co. bearings last?

[Joe K]

There seem to be MANY interchange bearings for the A7121 bearing.

The Google header (not seen on the page?) gives the dimensionalities

Part Number(s):A7121. ProductName:ROLLER BEARING. Inside Diameter : 19.05 mm,0.75 in. Outside Diameter : 28.58 mm,1.125 in. Width : 42.86 mm,1.6875 in

I believe this is the LONG bearing of the three.

https://www.yoyopart.com/oem/10372305/ford-a7121.html

We (many of us) have discussed this subject ad infinitum before. One significant discussion occurred at https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277033

My friend "Barnstuf" was in on this. I disagree now with his comment that he thought the Hyatt style bearing was not used by Ford. The rear axle/hub bearing of choice remains an original Hyatt style bearing. Hyatt provided MANY bearings to MANY car producers over the pre-war years.

Now passed, I miss Barnstuf (Rich Bell). He was a resource...

"When someone passes, a library closes."

Joe K

[Dino's A]

Originally Posted by katy

Thanks for the info, but, do the Baltzer bearing Co. bearings last?

Short answer is yes. The jeep transfer case has a 2 gear cluster positioned
between a gear on both sides. 2 gear cluster can be shifted to determine
high or low, 4 wheel drive or not. Anyways, this 2 gear cluster needs those
rollers and a very hardened shaft. Past repo shafts have been the problem because of a lack of hardness. The rollers have withstood all this no problem.

Guys way back when were subjecting these units to V6 & V8 conversions.
Fast forward now, the rollers we use seem to still be made ok. Because of
the last of hardened shafts for the rollers, guys were actually boring out
that cluster and converting the rollers to the modern taper rollers to fix this.

So, not so short story.....bottom line, there needs to be some research done.
Sooner or later, we all might have to break into our transmissions. Do you want to have these cheap rollers in yours? And for how many miles?