Going after frame VIN on 1929 Roadster.

[BN]

I'm finally biting the bullet and going after the frame VIN (located under the left front body mount, hopefully) of my 1929 Model A Roadster. New law in Texas says you can't sell your car unless car VIN matches Title VIN. My engine number does not match the title VIN. I'm pretty sure the frame VIN will, since this car looks like it was restored from a car already in pretty good condition.


I'm wondering which would be easier. Unbolting the splash pan from the rear fender and removing front fender/splash pan/running board as a unit or unbolting the front fender from the splash pan and removing them separately.


The procedure I have in mind is as follows:


Remove all left side body to frame bolts.
Back off nuts on all right side body to frame bolts.
Remove steering column clamp.
Remove choke rod.
Remove hood.
Remove the two firewall to radiator rods.
Raise left side of body slightly.
Remove the left front fender and left splash shield/running board Assy.
Remove the left rear fender bracket (at back).
Leave the left rear fender attached to body.
Leave the right front fender and right splash shield/running board Assy intact.
Remove right rear fender.
Raise the left side of the body about 3”, pivoting the body about the loose right side body to frame bolts.


3” should be enough clearance to get in with a dremel with wire brush to clean top of frame and see the VIN.



Call the Dept of Transportation Officer to come out and confirm that the VIN on frame is same as VIN on title and certify appropriately.


I would appreciate comments or anything I may have overlooked.


Thanks,
Bill

[RawhideKid]

Hey Bill, that all sounds about right except I'm not so sure about the left rear. Are you removing the splash AND running board from the left rear fender? If you are, you should have more then 3" to raise that body for the inspector to see. Also, while you have that all cleaned off, take a rubbing from the frame rail so IF any question comes up in the future you can say, "see, I have it right here" and have that inspector sign the rubbing. May as well CYA!!

IF you have one near, get a Notary to stamp and sign that rubbing too!! Can't hurt!

[denniskliesen]

I lifted my body recently and I removed first all 4 wheels and put the axles on jack stands.

Whether you have a disconnect switch on your battery or not it's a good idea to do that first.

I removed the hood and then the hood shelf on each side. I removed the radiator support rods. This left the front splash shield loose so I removed it out of the way.

I removed the headlight bar with the horn and headlight attached.

Next I disconnected the gas line at the sediment bulb on the firewall.

Next the wiring harness on the engine only loose or disconnected where needed. I removed the clips on the harness only enough for slack so I could lift the body about 4-5 inches.
Remove the starter rod, foot pedals to remove the floor mat. I removed both front floor boards, also the floorboard behind the front seats for better access on my Tudor.

I removed the steering column clamp to the bottom of the fuel tank.

I removed the nuts bolts and washers from the rear fender to running board, next the nuts and washers on the running board brackets, leaving the front fenders attached to the splash aprons and running boards I left attached to the front fenders. There are 2 1/4" bolts holding the splash aprons to the frame on each side, and then the fender splash apron and running board were able to be pulled away from the chassis.

I did not remove either of my rear fenders.

Next I removed all of the nuts and washers from bolts going through the frame rails.
My rear bumper brackets were attached to the bottom of my body and those were removed.

All of my body to frame bolts I left in place until I got the body up off the frame. They were stuck due to the rubber pads stuck to them after 88 years and I was able to get the bolts loose after I got the pads pulled from the blocks.

I was able to lift my body with a pry bar about 3/4" at a time front then rear until I had front and rear of body on 2- 2x4 blocks. This left enough room to clean the entire top of the frame and put new frame welt back on.

I did everything in the order I mentioned because I wanted to replace those original body to frame rubber pads. That got my hood to fit near perfect when I went back together.

Everything went back together in reverse order except I put the running boards on seperate from the fender and splash aprons.

I might have left something out, hope not. And it was very exciting to see those frame and engine matching numbers.

[BN]

Rawhidekid: Yes, I plan to remove both the splash apron and the running board from the left rear fender. Good thought on the rubbing of the frame to record the VIN. I'll do that.

DennisK: You are right. The rear bumper brackets attach to the body as well as the frame. Two vertical brackets near the end of the body on the 29 Roadster. So I'll need to remove these bolts also.

I was planning to lift only the left side of the body while pivoting at the right side. I thought that might put the right rear fender in a bind if I didn't remove it. After further consideration, I think I'll lift both sides evenly. That way, neither rear fenders will need to be removed.

[denniskliesen]

Bill, that might be a good idea. I had to lift my body because the U bolts holding the rear spring were in bad shape and I had to change them. Things just led to another and another. So I did the welt and rubber pads at the same time. Everything was original 1929 yet.

[4port]

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Your working from the wrong end. Match the engine number to the title VIN. After all the work of pulling the body you may be disappointed with a rusted or illegible number. Lots of these cars have been assembled from pieces. Four or five engine changes could have happened before you got the car. Meaning four or five different engine numbers. I have had 3 engines in one car my self in 20yrs. Most people hunt usable blocks and could care less about the number unless building a show car. Some just cut a steel plate in the shape of the engine boss, stamp the correct number including the star stamps and move on. You can fool the judges. Once the plate is epoxied on a fillet of JB weld can be used to mould it in to the block, fresh paint and it looks like it grew there. Did the DMV tell you to look under the body on top of the frame for the VIN? Most times I have been to DMV or county tax office I have to educate them because they are clueless. If you don't get the results you are looking for at one office go to another.

True story: Club member goes to register Model A at county tax office. Clerk tells him he needs the signature from the seller we will call "Mr. Smith" on the paper work. Club member says he does not know the Mr. Smith on the title and he may be deceased for all he knows. Clerk responds, " I think I just saw Mr. Smith outside". Club member goes outside, gets Mr. Smith's signature and returns to clerk to get new title.

[RawhideKid]

Well, I wasn't going to tell you that a simple grinding of the number pad on the motor and a restamping can match the VIN on the title because you would need to find something like a Tandy Leather shop to find a Star stamp and the rest can be done with HF stamps because it could be illegal in your state to do that.

I just figured taking a rubbing would be prudent since you have the body off the frame anyway, and be sure to spend that $25.00 for the Notary!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by 4port

Your working from the wrong end. Match the engine number to the title VIN. After all the work of pulling the body you may be disappointed with a rusted or illegible number. Lots of these cars have been assembled from pieces. Four or five engine changes could have happened before you got the car. Meaning four or five different engine numbers. I have had 3 engines in one car my self in 20yrs. Most people hunt usable blocks and could care less about the number unless building a show car. Some just cut a steel plate in the shape of the engine boss, stamp the correct number including the star stamps and move on. You can fool the judges. Once the plate is epoxied on a fillet of JB weld can be used to mould it in to the block, fresh paint and it looks like it grew there. Did the DMV tell you to look under the body on top of the frame for the VIN? Most times I have been to DMV or county tax office I have to educate them because they are clueless. If you don't get the results you are looking for at one office go to another.

True story: Club member goes to register Model A at county tax office. Clerk tells him he needs the signature from the seller we will call "Mr. Smith" on the paper work. Club member says he does not know the Mr. Smith on the title and he may be deceased for all he knows. Clerk responds, " I think I just saw Mr. Smith outside". Club member goes outside, gets Mr. Smith's signature and returns to the clerk to get a new title.

Originally Posted by RawhideKid

Well, I wasn't going to tell you that a simple grinding of the number pad on the motor and a restamping can match the VIN on the title because you would need to find something like a Tandy Leather shop to find a Star stamp and the rest can be done with HF stamps because it could be illegal in your state to do that.

I just figured taking a rubbing would be prudent since you have the body off the frame anyway, and be sure to spend that $25.00 for the Notary!

Let me just say, yea. 👍

[RonC]

Doesn't Texas allow you to change the VIN on the title to match the engine? Many states do.

[BN]

Let me mention again - I understand this to be a new Texas law, "The VIN on the title must match the VIN on the car before it can be sold". I called Streetside Classics a couple months ago about them possibly selling this car for me. They immediately alerted me about this new law as soon as I told them it was a model A. Also, it's on their website. They gave me a DMV Officer's phone number to call and he confimred this new law. He said the new head of the Texas DMV was over zealous and was responsible for this new law. He said I had two choices if I wanted to sell the car. One choice was to re-register the car as a "new build" (such as a hot rod) which would re-classify it as a 2017 car (instead of 1929). The second choice was for him to come out and confirm that the frame VIN was the same as I have on my Texas title. If I recall correctly, he told me he would then attach a Texas DMV tag on the door sill or firewall.

There are many threads on this forum pertaining to changing the engine number. The vast majority of them warn against it due to illegality issues.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by RawhideKid

IF you have one near, get a Notary to stamp and sign that rubbing too!! Can't hurt!

I don't know how a notary would be of any help. They are not attesting that they accompanied you to the car in question and saw you make the rubbing

They are only notarizing that you brought them a piece of paper and that they checked your ID and it was you who brought them the paper. Pretty much useless.

[denniskliesen]

That's pretty much the way it is in California. Where they used to go by engine numbers years ago the number has to match something on the title, frame or engine. I have a truck from out of state with what looks like a restamp on the engine block that matched the out of state title. I was able to show them the frame serial number, the cab serial number, and that is what they retitled it. Frame and cab serial numbers on new title after explaining the engine will eventually get changed and then title would be incorrect. They agreed and made it what I asked for. It is still titled as the year the truck is. I also went to a private licensed contractor with DMV who are much easier to deal with then the DMV.

(I don't know why engine and engine block were underlined in my text.)

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

AND, when you go to DMV, take pics along & LIMP a lot!
Bill Gimp (I make "fun" of myself, so hopefully, others WON'T.) The Dog's LAFFIN'---I tole him, "That's a silly smile, with your "LIZZARD" lips"!--LOL

[denniskliesen]

I had a dog once that practically peeled her upper lip over the top of her head. Doberman, scared the hell outta everybody. Actually had a Dalmation that did that also. I've been told those 2 dogs bite more than any other dog. What people didn't know was they were happy at the time. So yeah Bill, I believe you when you said the dog's laffin

[RonC]

Originally Posted by BN

Let me mention again - I understand this to be a new Texas law, "The VIN on the title must match the VIN on the car before it can be sold". I called Streetside Classics a couple months ago about them possibly selling this car for me. They immediately alerted me about this new law as soon as I told them it was a model A. Also, it's on their website. They gave me a DMV Officer's phone number to call and he confimred this new law. He said the new head of the Texas DMV was over zealous and was responsible for this new law. He said I had two choices if I wanted to sell the car. One choice was to re-register the car as a "new build" (such as a hot rod) which would re-classify it as a 2017 car (instead of 1929). The second choice was for him to come out and confirm that the frame VIN was the same as I have on my Texas title. If I recall correctly, he told me he would then attach a Texas DMV tag on the door sill or firewall.

I would call someone in the Texas RMV Title Department. On the Texas RMV website they state in several places that for pre March 1932 Fords the VIN is the motor number and not the frame number. There is also a form to correct the the VIN number for "motor changes" on those vehicles.

The RMV states April 2017 for "Motor Changes" "It is not necessary to apply for a corrected title if a new or different motor has been installed in a 1956 or later model year vehicle of any make because the VIN stamped on the frame or body is the identifying number.

If a new or different motor is installed in a motor vehicle which records the motor number as the identifying number (all 1955 and prior model year motor vehicles, except Ford products manufactured since March 31,1932), an application for corrected Texas title must be filed recording the new motor number. The application must include the following:

• Application for Texas Title and/or Registration (Form 130-U);
• Evidence of ownership in applicant's name or assigned to applicant;
• Bill of sale for the motor installed;
• VIN verification in the form of a pencil tracing or photograph of the motor
number, or a Law Enforcement Identification Number Inspection (Form
VTR-68-A);
• Valid proof of financial responsibility covering the described vehicle in the
applicant's name."

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

I had a dog once that practically peeled her upper lip over the top of her head. Doberman, scared the hell outta everybody. Actually had a Dalmation that did that also. I've been told those 2 dogs bite more than any other dog. What people didn't know was they were happy at the time. So yeah Bill, I believe you when you said the dog's laffin

Dennis,
LuLu, my previous Rat Terrier, had lip cracks that turned UP at the ends & she wore a continuous SMILE
She was a truck Dog & made several trips to S.F. with me, even without a "P" stop!!!
Bill Doglover

[The Zoomer]

If you need VIN # restoration let me know, I can assist with the proper KR Wilson Ford number dies for the Model A-1940's.

[RawhideKid]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

I don't know how a notary would be of any help. They are not attesting that they accompanied you to the car in question and saw you make the rubbing

They are only notarizing that you brought them a piece of paper and that they checked your ID and it was you who brought them the paper. Pretty much useless.

Dick, Please forgive me for not being more specific when I mentioned the Notary.
I was thinking that there would be a bit more common sense and invite the Notary over as well as whatever state official needed to verify the number on the frame at the same time. I have several friends who are Notary and are happy to make a house call to help.

I will try to be more specific in the future to remove all doubt.

[Dodge]

Sent PM

[Chris Haynes]

Instead of a rubbing why not simply take a picture of it?