Canadian Flathead?

[gmanrides]

While the 51 Merc Flathead is being checked at the machine shop I went ahead and traded a SBC for this 24 stud flathead. The heads are marked C7RA-A there is no marking at the rear of engine. It does have the rear bell drilled for return oil passage but the cross port is not plugged. I did see a drawing on here somewhere showing the oiling system with an external bypass valve. It is fresh out of the machine shop but is missing the starter, crank pulley and distributor. I have a set of Navarro heads and 3x2 intake that will fit this block. I figure if I can get one or both these engines going I can pick which one suits me best. LOL.

[Brian]

That is indeed a Canadian block. The number cast in front of #1 cylinder will give a positive ID of what year.

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Looks like C91 which would make it 39 ford 221ci block. If it is c99 it is 239 merc and its Canadian like Brian says

GB

[gmanrides]

Thanks guys, the number in front of 1 cylinder looks to be 81. The bore looks to be 3.06 so I think it's a 221 maybe a 38 model?

[Brian]

Yes, it looks to me to be an 81A- 1938 engine, going by the cast #, however, the unusual thing about it is the big, square protrusion off back of Bellhousing where the oil pressure ports are; the big square design is normally post war, the pre war engines normally had considerably smaller protrusion in this area. Just shows...when it comes to things Ford, there is no hard and fast rule!

[Graeme / New Zealand]

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Originally Posted by Brian

Yes, it looks to me to be an 81A- 1938 engine, going by the cast #, however, the unusual thing about it is the big, square protrusion off back of Bellhousing where the oil pressure ports are; the big square design is normally post war, the pre war engines normally had considerably smaller protrusion in this area. Just shows...when it comes to things Ford, there is no hard and fast rule!

I've got a C99A block with that large port on it. It had oil pressure switches in both those ports when I got it.

GB

[meric42]

Here's the lube info for these blocks

[gmanrides]

Well I am finding out these are for sure a learning experience. The more I look at it the more questions I have. I did order Ron's book today and a friend gave me a couple more to read over. Will any wide belt crank pulley work on this crank I am guessing it will be within maybe 37-48? Thanks for the help and I'll see what I can find on the search function what is the best route for filtration and ventilation.

[meric42]

Are you able to post a photo of the casting area immediately forward of #: 1 cylinder? This will help in the identification. I suspect that what you may have is a Canadian WWII 99A i.e. '39 Mercury Block, somewhat like the attached photo of a NOS block that I have.

[gmanrides]

Here are some more pictures.

[gmanrides]

The 2nd picture shows the crank snout looks to have a two piece seal in cover and shaft measured 1.314. The third picture shows the dimples in pan rail. The fifth picture is looking down the vent tube, I am guessing the hex plug retains the oil relief? on another note the dipstick mount shows two threaded holes one for the tube not sure what the other one is for but looks like 1/8" NPT ? Looks like a add on piece since it is bolted to the pan and aluminum.

[meric42]

It's a '38 (i.e.81) motor.

The second hole in the dip stick boss is for the oil return from the standard oil filter canister

[G32]

So guys:
Does a Canadian 1938 81 221 have 2.399 " main
bearings with flanged rod bearings as per US version.
Note the long crankshaft snout (short on US).
Was long crank 38 81 for special applications or used on
domestic cars & trucks too?
Just out of machine shop! Like to know what he did.
Poster is in Tennessee ,US.
39-42 221s used 2.499 " mains same as 99s & 59s ?
Gene Tulsa,OK

[36coupe]

[QUOTE=gmanrides;1010758]While the 51 Merc Flathead is being checked at the machine shop I went ahead and traded a SBC for this 24 stud flathead. The heads are marked C7RA-A there is no marking at the rear of engine.

Are those heads from the late forties?

[Brian]

'Does a Canadian 1938 81 221 have 2.399 " main'

No, the 81 blox run the long snout, big main journal cranks.

The 24 stud, 221 blocks that run the short snout, late 36-37 style crank with the flanged rod bearings, do not have 81 cast on them anywhere.

C7RA heads are late '40's offerings from Canada, standard equipment on C69A blocks. Available in cast iron and aluminum versions

[gmanrides]

Lord I am getting in deep with these Flatheads. G32, I have no idea what was performed at the machine shop but I will find out tomorrow morning. I have to go and look at the 51 Merc block cracks all around cam shaft area. Rest of the block was good where the cracks usually appear. Hopefully I can salvage enough of the other parts so it's not a total loss. I'll get some pics of the cracked area.
36coupe, from the information I gathered it seems it is a earlier block with later heads on it.
Brian, Thanks for the clarification, I guess it would then have floating rod bearings then? Would it take the long double wide belt crank pulley then? I guess a better question is if it is even desirable for a AV8 build?

[Brian]

Yes, it will have floaters. Yes, it will take the long, double sheave pulley, and in fact, even the 8BA crank will physically fit in the 81A block. But some things would need to be changed in that swap [timing gears, rear seal arrangement] and the 8BA rods won't go down the 3 1/16" bores, so we don't need to get too carried away [yet!!] One of the great things about these old Fords is the interchangability of various componentry.
I cannot advise as to which engine would be best in a Model A, as there is so many variables that can be incorporated in the rest of the vehicle.

[gmanrides]

Well the 51 Merc block is trash. Cracks everywhere on the underside including pan rail. I did talk to the gentleman at the machine shop who put the 221 together for my buddy and all he did was freshen up the block,honed, bearings, rings, valves etc. on the 221 flatty. The cam is stamped on the face 5-T and 3370. The only reference I could find is it may be a Clay Smith cam. I have two possible intakes for it with one being a 2x2 Weiand that has the heat cross over but no markings or numbers stamped in it. The other is a Navarro 3x2 stamped 2091 no gen mount, no heat cross over with a set of Navarro heads that are marked 8.75. Did not really find out anything on those numbers either.

[38 coupe]

Can you post pictures of your block in this thread?: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...5301&showall=1

I started that thread to identify the US production line blocks. Others folks have kept the information coming including post war replacement blocks and Canadian blocks.

I think you have a 39-40 motor. I would be very surprised if Canada introduced the larger bearings and longer crank before US production did. These changes were made when the Mercury was introduced.

[gmanrides]

Sure 38 coupe I will post some pictures over there. I may also post the heads and intakes over at the Jalopy Journal and see what kind of info I can get there. Thanks Gary

[Ol' Ron]

I've never worked on a Canadian block that I know of. However, Ive been told by several people that these blocks are heaver than their American counter part han have thicker cylinder walls. Be interesting to know if any of this is true???

[G32]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I think you have a 39-40 motor. I would be very surprised if Canada introduced the larger bearings and longer crank before US production did. These changes were made when the Mercury was introduced.

Thanks 38 coupe.
Maybe a separate thread for Canadian blocks?

Gene Tulsa

[G32]

[QUOTE=gmanrides;1013886]Well the 51 Merc block is trash.

Gmanrides,
Is the "Merc" true ---4" stroke--merc pistons?

Gene Tulsa

[gmanrides]

Ron, Not sure if the block is heavier seems plenty heavy to me. I wonder how accurate a measurement one could get from the center water jacket to cylinder bore?

[gmanrides]

G32, I measured from the piston at the bottom of the stroke to the deck and was right at 4". The guy at the machine shop said it was a 3.75 crank. I am not sure how that could be. I am out of town with work but when I get back I am going by and compare my components with that off a Ford 8BA. I have a buddy that has one disassembled and I have talked him out of it so it would be great to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Hopefully the block is good and I can clear up this confusion in my head.

[Bored&Stroked]

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RE: Oiling - Cross Port Not Plugged

I've recently been building a 1942 Merc engine that saw service in WWII - probably in some stationary device. Anyway, it has the return line port just like your block and the cross-over tube was not plugged. (I've never seen one plugged from the factory?).

What was interesting is that it had the brass fittings for the external oil filter - the one that picks up the oil out of the block was very interesting. Below the threaded area, it has a longer (smooth tube) area that is designed to go through the cross-shaft hole and index on the lower hole (vertically oriented).

This tubing extension blocks off the cross-extension hole and directs all the oil to the filter. This is the first time I've actually seen one of these fittings - kind of answered the question of what the heck directs the oil to the filter - such that it can then be routed back to the engine and plumbed into the second hole?

If anybody is interested, I can take a picture. This seems like an easy way to direct oil flow - and is how the engines must have been configured from the factory.

Bypass valve: does anybody have one of these? I'd love to see one and go through it!

B&S

[gmanrides]

I am interested and would like to see a picture.

[meric42]

Originally Posted by gmanrides

I am interested and would like to see a picture.

Me too

[Ol' Ron]

I've seen one of these a few years back and I think they have a 1/4 line. I rreally like to use 3/8 so I enlarge the hole to 3/8NPT

[38 coupe]

Are you going to pull the pan? I'd love to know what size mains are in that block. I still think it is '39 and will have the large mains. Wouldn't it be interesting if I was wrong?

[gmanrides]

I have not planned on it but what the heck. I may get a chance this weekend. I have to fix momma's Jeep 1st though. LOL.

[Campbell Cartel]

Originally Posted by Brian

That is indeed a Canadian block. The number cast in front of #1 cylinder will give a positive ID of what year.

What's the key for deciphering this number (cast in front of #1 cylinder)?

What number would a 1947 block have??

Thanks!

[Brian]

38 coupe, it'll have the large dia mains, because it's got the long crank snout. All 24 stud engines with the long crank snout run the large journal cranks. If you find a 24 stud engine with short snout, it is the early 38 engine and runs the same crank as the later 21 stud engines [LB 36,37,38]

[Newc]

Canada Ford made thousands of Flathead MILITARY engines. Many had extra oil ports for oil coolers [carrier engs], My '48 114X has a '41 military eng [3 3/16"- releaved] . Surplus engs used in Production vehicles. Newc

[38 coupe]

Originally Posted by Brian

38 coupe, it'll have the large dia mains, because it's got the long crank snout. All 24 stud engines with the long crank snout run the large journal cranks. If you find a 24 stud engine with short snout, it is the early 38 engine and runs the same crank as the later 21 stud engines [LB 36,37,38]

The long snout indicating large mains was my thoughts at the time (back in 2015), which was why I was thinking 39-40 motor.


The opposite happened though, Ford Germany produced a few short snout large bearing cranks after breaking away from Ford USA due to starting a world war.

[glennpm]

From pages 69 to 74 of the TECHNO link in my signature below and attached extracted pages.

Glenn

[Westernswede]

It's good to have a plan and a back-up plan. They say I need nine posts before I can come up with a plan. Thanks for your help.