The Ford Barn

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 07:54 PM

Hi I'm new hear. My name is Kyle. If its made out of metal I can work with it. From forming to casting. I'm looking for some opinions on my current project. I don't have a model t. But my 5 year old loves them. So I decided to build hem one. Since I don't have one yet I've been getting my measurement from 1/32 car I got from the Henry ford. It's supposed to look like a 1920-25 model t roadster flatbed duly pickup.

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 07:58 PM

More picks

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:00 PM

Pick

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:03 PM

Other picks

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:08 PM

Having trouble posting picks

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:09 PM

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Pictures

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:12 PM

Cab

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:13 PM

Door latch

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:14 PM

Just the cab

Hill ironworks · 01-22-2013, 08:15 PM

Sorry about the picks. Not the greatest with the computer.

Fordors · 01-22-2013, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hill ironworks

Sorry about the picks. Not the greatest with the computer.

Your craftsmanship more than makes up for your lack of computer skills. I'd say your son is one lucky boy.

dumb person · 01-23-2013, 12:20 AM

Looks good so far but what is the engine from? Looks old.

Hill ironworks · 01-23-2013, 06:17 AM

The motor is a 1925 stover. They were used in boats and farm equipment.

fordman67 · 01-23-2013, 01:44 PM

That is an awesome build.I look forward to watching it unfold the rest!

Hill ironworks · 01-23-2013, 06:56 PM

Thanks. I started on the fenders tonight.

Hill ironworks · 01-27-2013, 08:19 PM

Fenders

Hill ironworks · 01-27-2013, 08:20 PM

Front

yachtsmanbill · 01-27-2013, 09:59 PM

Neat job... but when you put your pics into a file, either look at the lower right corner for a box with L or R arrows to turn the pics, That, or right click on the pics and select rotate "Left or Right".
I use Tinypic.com Select the pic you want, select sized for website, and copy and paste that size in your text. Youll feel like a caveman when you see how simple it is! ws

30A · 01-27-2013, 11:14 PM

Great work!!!
Don't sweat the small stuff (computer). One picture at a time is fine for me. When the pictures is sideways, I can turn my head. Keep the progress pics coming!
Spend your time on what you do best! Thx Steve

FL&WVMIKE · 01-27-2013, 11:27 PM

Hill Ironworks .....................
On my "WINDOWS" System, there is a ROTATE IMAGE feature. You, probably have something similar.
When you "BROUSE", you can do that up to fifteen times, in one post.
Hope this helps.
Nice work !
MIKE

Mike V. Florida · 01-29-2013, 02:54 AM

Here they are

Hill ironworks · 01-29-2013, 07:20 PM

Thanks for fixing my picks mike. They look much better when you don't half to tilt your head.

Hill ironworks · 01-29-2013, 07:38 PM

You guys might enjoy this to. I made these a couple years ago for our local tractor and engine show.

Hill ironworks · 01-29-2013, 07:42 PM

One of my bicycles

Hill ironworks · 01-29-2013, 07:43 PM

Its a 20" Bicycle

Mike V. Florida · 02-01-2013, 06:04 AM

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Too talented for me!

Hill ironworks · 02-01-2013, 03:30 PM

Thanks mike. I'm going to start on the patterns for the wheels this weakend. I'm going to cast them out of aluminum. I'm afrad wood just wouldn't hold up to my drivers skill.

Hill ironworks · 02-12-2013, 07:56 PM

Almost ready to go to the foundry. The pattern is almost done. I'm going to have them poured in aluminum for safety. I'm afraid wood spoaks at that size would crack and brake. Eney ways hears a look a the pattern so far.

drpepper1885 · 02-12-2013, 08:06 PM

Fantastic work. Looks great!

OLDTGUY · 02-13-2013, 12:04 PM

wow that's really nice work, Thanks for posting.
JJ

30A · 02-13-2013, 12:44 PM

Awesome work!!! Keep sending pics.

Hill ironworks · 02-13-2013, 04:12 PM

Thanks guys. It's taking a little longer than I wanted it to. I'm trying to make it as accurate as possible so I can try to show it at the Henry ford this summer for the 30s and below show. I go to that show every year as a spectator. I really hope they let me show it there. That's my favorite show there. Any one in Ohio or near by have a roller for sale. I would like to try my hand at building a streamed lined speedster with twin T motors.

blgitn · 02-13-2013, 07:19 PM

You are amazing!

Hill ironworks · 03-03-2013, 10:29 AM

Hears some more progress picks

Hill ironworks · 03-03-2013, 10:30 AM

Other way

LSGUN · 03-12-2013, 07:36 PM

Cool Bradley GT body in the back.

Hill ironworks · 03-12-2013, 07:42 PM

That's another project for a friend of mine. I'm building him a blown 1600cc vw motor and a fue custom parts on the body. I finely got the mini t body in primer time to block sand. I hate sanding.

26t-hee · 03-23-2013, 07:27 AM

Top notch.

32 chevy vett · 03-23-2013, 08:05 AM

Great job on all your projects!

Hill ironworks · 04-29-2013, 04:02 PM

Peddles

Hill ironworks · 04-29-2013, 04:07 PM

Park brake Handel. It's in the wrong spot butt I was afraid he would trip on it when he was getting out.

30A · 04-29-2013, 06:19 PM

Your work is outstanding!!!

yachtsmanbill · 04-29-2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hill ironworks

That's another project for a friend of mine. I'm building him a blown 1600cc vw motor and a fue custom parts on the body. I finely got the mini t body in primer time to block sand. I hate sanding.

I can surely relate to that!! ws

Hill ironworks · 04-29-2013, 06:30 PM

That looks like a huge boat. Way to much sanding , good luck.

yachtsmanbill · 04-29-2013, 07:44 PM

Thats a 1963 36 foot aluminum Chris Craft Roamer. She's 50 this year, dad bought it in '73, died in '80 and I inherited it then. Every single screw and bolt on all the trim had corrosion around it. That meant removing ALL that stuff, grinding the crud off, sanding the entire boat top to bottom with 100, and today finally using EPOXY non-bondo to fill the voids. Its a 24 hour cure (!) and will sand it fair tomorrow, AGAIN, prime over the repairs, finish sand the primer, then wash AGAIN and begin masking for paint. After that its a reverse masking for the stripes, and once again for the anti fouling bottom paint. FWIW, I am now on my 27th sander!
Sure cant wait to take the Pollinator Special out for a spin!! ws

Hill ironworks · 05-30-2013, 05:58 PM

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Getting closer I casted the leather belt pulleys today for the fan and water pump. Ill try to get a pick of them later.

Super88 · 05-30-2013, 06:38 PM

Very impressive!!

yachtsmanbill · 05-30-2013, 08:07 PM

Always been kinda interested in casting stuff too... brass/bronze and aluminum. Not so much zinc or iron tho... can you post some pics of the process if youve got a free hand while doing it with a couple of simple explanations as you proceed?
Are you sand mold casting or investment casting (lost wax?).Thanks! ws

Hill ironworks · 06-02-2013, 06:29 PM

I do both, sand and lost wax. As for the process I'm no expert ill just half to take some picks and explain what I'm doing. My furnace, sand, and sand mauler are all home made. I started casting things in my shop because all the local foundries have turned retarded with there prices and there minimum runs. No one will do one off parts eney more.

Hill ironworks · 06-02-2013, 06:35 PM

Hears a pick of the exhaust / intake manifold and water pump pulley I casted

Hill ironworks · 06-02-2013, 06:36 PM

Manifold

yachtsmanbill · 06-02-2013, 07:55 PM

Yer a veritable artist! I understand the concept(s) but have just never got around to doing it yet. Ive made a lot of stuff for the boats like stuffing boxes and rudders and a myriad of other deck hardware stuff that ultimately, I had to fabricate from flat stock etc and then braze and then machine for "one-offs", whereas casting wouldve been way less time consuming.
So youve got a refractory lined kiln; what do you use for fuel? Propane? Charcoal and air? Ive looked at bunches of "home made foundry" stuff on line... quite a big following. Id like to make some bronze carbide cannons someday! ws

Hill ironworks · 06-02-2013, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill

Yer a veritable artist! I understand the concept(s) but have just never got around to doing it yet. Ive made a lot of stuff for the boats like stuffing boxes and rudders and a myriad of other deck hardware stuff that ultimately, I had to fabricate from flat stock etc and then braze and then machine for "one-offs", whereas casting wouldve been way less time consuming.
So youve got a refractory lined kiln; what do you use for fuel? Propane? Charcoal and air? Ive looked at bunches of "home made foundry" stuff on line... quite a big following. Id like to make some bronze carbide cannons someday! ws

My furnace is lined with home made refractory cement. It's made out of garden perlite ground up with old motor brushes, Portland cement and fire clay. My burner is forced air propane, made out of black pipe and a old vacume cleaner motor. The shell of the furnace is made out of a household presure tank. Not sure what size. Look up lost fome casting I've done some of that to

Hill ironworks · 06-02-2013, 08:31 PM

Stuff

Hill ironworks · 09-16-2013, 06:02 PM

Just became a proud owner of a 23 coup basket case. Know I have something to go by other than pictures. Still working on body work for the mini t. Need a title for the 23 if any one has one.

Hill ironworks · 09-16-2013, 06:17 PM

Hears a pick of the bute

Hill ironworks · 09-16-2013, 06:25 PM

Windo frame

Hill ironworks · 09-16-2013, 06:28 PM

Window

CharlieB · 09-17-2013, 06:42 AM

"If it's metal I can work with it" is a bit of an understatement. It's going to be a real gem.

mrblanche · 09-18-2013, 08:49 AM

I'm already jealous of the kid!

Hill ironworks · 09-21-2013, 08:16 PM

Frame

Hill ironworks · 09-21-2013, 08:18 PM

Engine in frame

Hill ironworks · 09-22-2013, 04:57 PM

Getting closer. Got the body and fenders on today.

Hill ironworks · 09-22-2013, 04:58 PM

Hears a better pick of the engine in the frame.

Curt Campbell · 09-22-2013, 07:50 PM

Nothing short of INCREDIBLE!

Hill ironworks · 09-23-2013, 05:26 AM

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Thanks

Hill ironworks · 10-05-2013, 07:00 PM

Throtel leankage

Hill ironworks · 10-05-2013, 07:01 PM

Better pick of the engine

Hill ironworks · 10-05-2013, 07:04 PM

If your checking out the picks. And you know how to come pile all the picks to one post I would really appreciate it. Thanks kyle

yachtsmanbill · 10-05-2013, 08:05 PM

You've got the patience and fortitude of a saint! ws

Hill ironworks · 12-19-2013, 06:41 PM

It's been awhile butt hears some new picks. I'm also trying to teach myself how to sew.

Hill ironworks · 12-19-2013, 06:46 PM

Seat cover I'm trying to sew

Hill ironworks · 12-19-2013, 06:48 PM

Cool amp gauge I found at the swapmeet.

32 chevy vett · 12-19-2013, 07:54 PM

Very talented! Great work!

Mort · 12-20-2013, 11:21 AM

That is awesome! The talent that is out there is never ending!

Hill ironworks · 01-02-2014, 05:49 PM

Getting closer to a drive.

Hill ironworks · 01-02-2014, 05:50 PM

My drivers getting big should have made it bigger

Hill ironworks · 06-26-2014, 10:18 AM

Haven't posted in a wile so I figured I would give an up date. My driver had growth spurt so I cut the body and stretched it. I also re did the motor again. The wheels should be back from the foundry next weak. Can't weight to get this project done.

Hill ironworks · 06-26-2014, 10:22 AM

The motor mods consisted of two 5 hp briggs pistons. three face valves and custom seats. Some fancy billet rods I made.

jim galli · 06-26-2014, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hill ironworks

My drivers getting big should have made it bigger

Nah, just make some more drivers

Hill ironworks · 07-04-2014, 06:53 AM

Finely got the wheels back from the foundry. Time for some machine work.

Hill ironworks · 08-23-2014, 11:42 AM

Still pluging away

Hill ironworks · 08-23-2014, 11:45 AM

The suspension is at full drupe right know. It will look better when I get it on the ground.

Willie in Houston · 08-23-2014, 12:14 PM

Hill, sounds like a great project. I could not start to do a scale car. Restoring is a lot easier.
Dual rear wheels on a T or TT almost never happened. I have seen a dual rear wheel adapter kit for a TT, but I think it was an accessory, not Ford made?
Sounds like the young man is lucky to have you as a dad.

FL&WVMIKE · 08-24-2014, 10:24 AM

The talent of some people just, simply, blows my mind.
MIKE (mikeburch)

Hill ironworks · 08-24-2014, 03:20 PM

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Thanks fellas

01-22-2013, 08:15 PM	#10
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Sorry about the picks. Not the greatest with the computer.

01-23-2013, 12:20 AM	#12
dumb person Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South pacific island Posts: 1,724	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Looks good so far but what is the engine from? Looks old. __________________ <Link> This is how we roll<Link> "I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob Outcasts rules of old cars #1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated #2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong #3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough. #4 No shame in recreating something you never had #5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable

01-23-2013, 06:17 AM	#13
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build The motor is a 1925 stover. They were used in boats and farm equipment.

01-23-2013, 01:44 PM	#14
fordman67 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Evansville IN U.S.A. Posts: 395	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build That is an awesome build.I look forward to watching it unfold the rest! __________________ 1925 tudor (restoration) 1941 tudor"street rod" project1964 fairlane tube chassis "street car" 1996 f-350 crew cab 4x stroker! Na, I dont like working on cars...I exist for it!

01-23-2013, 06:56 PM	#15
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Thanks. I started on the fenders tonight.

01-27-2013, 09:59 PM	#18
yachtsmanbill Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Two Rivers, Wi. Posts: 1,406	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Neat job... but when you put your pics into a file, either look at the lower right corner for a box with L or R arrows to turn the pics, That, or right click on the pics and select rotate "Left or Right". I use Tinypic.com Select the pic you want, select sized for website, and copy and paste that size in your text. Youll feel like a caveman when you see how simple it is! ws __________________ " Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"

01-27-2013, 11:14 PM	#19
30A Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 100	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Great work!!! Don't sweat the small stuff (computer). One picture at a time is fine for me. When the pictures is sideways, I can turn my head. Keep the progress pics coming! Spend your time on what you do best! Thx Steve __________________ Restoring 36 pick up

01-27-2013, 11:27 PM	#20
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Hill Ironworks ..................... On my "WINDOWS" System, there is a ROTATE IMAGE feature. You, probably have something similar. When you "BROUSE", you can do that up to fifteen times, in one post. Hope this helps. Nice work ! MIKE

01-29-2013, 07:20 PM	#22
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Thanks for fixing my picks mike. They look much better when you don't half to tilt your head.

02-01-2013, 06:04 AM	#26
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Too talented for me! __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

02-01-2013, 03:30 PM	#27
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Thanks mike. I'm going to start on the patterns for the wheels this weakend. I'm going to cast them out of aluminum. I'm afrad wood just wouldn't hold up to my drivers skill.

02-12-2013, 08:06 PM	#29
drpepper1885 Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Kingwood, Texas Posts: 80	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Fantastic work. Looks great!

02-13-2013, 12:04 PM	#30
OLDTGUY Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Riverside NJ Posts: 48	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build wow that's really nice work, Thanks for posting. JJ

02-13-2013, 12:44 PM	#31
30A Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 100	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Awesome work!!! Keep sending pics. __________________ Restoring 36 pick up

02-13-2013, 04:12 PM	#32
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Thanks guys. It's taking a little longer than I wanted it to. I'm trying to make it as accurate as possible so I can try to show it at the Henry ford this summer for the 30s and below show. I go to that show every year as a spectator. I really hope they let me show it there. That's my favorite show there. Any one in Ohio or near by have a roller for sale. I would like to try my hand at building a streamed lined speedster with twin T motors.

02-13-2013, 07:19 PM	#33
blgitn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Point, VA 23181 Posts: 373	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build You are amazing!

03-12-2013, 07:36 PM	#36
LSGUN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: TX Posts: 252	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Cool Bradley GT body in the back.

03-12-2013, 07:42 PM	#37
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build That's another project for a friend of mine. I'm building him a blown 1600cc vw motor and a fue custom parts on the body. I finely got the mini t body in primer time to block sand. I hate sanding.

03-23-2013, 07:27 AM	#38
26t-hee Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 6	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Top notch.

03-23-2013, 08:05 AM	#39
32 chevy vett Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Ashby, Mass. Posts: 250	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Great job on all your projects!

04-29-2013, 06:19 PM	#42
30A Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 100	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Your work is outstanding!!! __________________ Restoring 36 pick up

04-29-2013, 06:30 PM	#44
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build That looks like a huge boat. Way to much sanding , good luck.

04-29-2013, 07:44 PM	#45
yachtsmanbill Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Two Rivers, Wi. Posts: 1,406	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Thats a 1963 36 foot aluminum Chris Craft Roamer. She's 50 this year, dad bought it in '73, died in '80 and I inherited it then. Every single screw and bolt on all the trim had corrosion around it. That meant removing ALL that stuff, grinding the crud off, sanding the entire boat top to bottom with 100, and today finally using EPOXY non-bondo to fill the voids. Its a 24 hour cure (!) and will sand it fair tomorrow, AGAIN, prime over the repairs, finish sand the primer, then wash AGAIN and begin masking for paint. After that its a reverse masking for the stripes, and once again for the anti fouling bottom paint. FWIW, I am now on my 27th sander! Sure cant wait to take the Pollinator Special out for a spin!! ws __________________ " Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"

05-30-2013, 05:58 PM	#46
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Getting closer I casted the leather belt pulleys today for the fan and water pump. Ill try to get a pick of them later.

05-30-2013, 06:38 PM	#47
Super88 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: SE Corner of WI Posts: 169	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Very impressive!!

05-30-2013, 08:07 PM	#48
yachtsmanbill Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Two Rivers, Wi. Posts: 1,406	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Always been kinda interested in casting stuff too... brass/bronze and aluminum. Not so much zinc or iron tho... can you post some pics of the process if youve got a free hand while doing it with a couple of simple explanations as you proceed? Are you sand mold casting or investment casting (lost wax?).Thanks! ws __________________ " Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"

06-02-2013, 06:29 PM	#49
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build I do both, sand and lost wax. As for the process I'm no expert ill just half to take some picks and explain what I'm doing. My furnace, sand, and sand mauler are all home made. I started casting things in my shop because all the local foundries have turned retarded with there prices and there minimum runs. No one will do one off parts eney more.

06-02-2013, 07:55 PM	#52
yachtsmanbill Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Two Rivers, Wi. Posts: 1,406	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Yer a veritable artist! I understand the concept(s) but have just never got around to doing it yet. Ive made a lot of stuff for the boats like stuffing boxes and rudders and a myriad of other deck hardware stuff that ultimately, I had to fabricate from flat stock etc and then braze and then machine for "one-offs", whereas casting wouldve been way less time consuming. So youve got a refractory lined kiln; what do you use for fuel? Propane? Charcoal and air? Ive looked at bunches of "home made foundry" stuff on line... quite a big following. Id like to make some bronze carbide cannons someday! ws __________________ " Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"

09-16-2013, 06:02 PM	#55
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Just became a proud owner of a 23 coup basket case. Know I have something to go by other than pictures. Still working on body work for the mini t. Need a title for the 23 if any one has one.

09-17-2013, 06:42 AM	#59
CharlieB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Toms River N.J. Posts: 515	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build "If it's metal I can work with it" is a bit of an understatement. It's going to be a real gem.

09-18-2013, 08:49 AM	#60
mrblanche Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Cedar Hill, TX Posts: 3	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build I'm already jealous of the kid!

09-22-2013, 07:50 PM	#65
Curt Campbell Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ottumwa, IA Posts: 308	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Nothing short of INCREDIBLE!

09-23-2013, 05:26 AM	#66
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Thanks

10-05-2013, 07:04 PM	#69
Hill ironworks Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 63	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build If your checking out the picks. And you know how to come pile all the picks to one post I would really appreciate it. Thanks kyle

10-05-2013, 08:05 PM	#70
yachtsmanbill Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Two Rivers, Wi. Posts: 1,406	Re: 1920-25 1/2 scale model t build You've got the patience and fortitude of a saint! ws __________________ " Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"