The Ford Barn

Tom Wesenberg · 11-10-2011, 01:43 PM

The other day I rode with my neighbor to Midwest Military to pick up some parts for his 1953 Army jeep. One thing he was buying was the original taillights and the store owner told him most emphatically that he couldn't drive his Jeep at night because it didn't have turn signals.

My Model A's don't have turn signals and I've never been bothered by driving at night. I'm sure the guy was dead wrong, but he sounded so sure of himself. I could call DMV, but I'm not sure they would know either.

Seth Swoboda · 11-10-2011, 01:45 PM

The DMV won't know what day of the week it is!

Benson · 11-10-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

The DMV won't know what day of the week it is!

But they WILL know it is 3.59 PM or if it is a holiday or Sat - Sun!!!

Mike V. Florida · 11-10-2011, 02:09 PM

I hope he got them cheap since the vehicle cannot be used at night with them.

bogdonj · 11-10-2011, 02:14 PM

tie some fluorescent lights to your left arm so people can see what way your turning at night haha

JoeWay · 11-10-2011, 02:17 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

It is rare for a state to require equipment in addition to the original. The sort of exceptions I'm aware of are things like seat belts for children, turn signals IF TOWING A TRAILER, that sort of thing involving higher levels of use. Even here in California, turn signals and right taillights are not required if they were not installed originally.

Joe

Patrick L. · 11-10-2011, 02:19 PM

I believe all 1953 street legal vehicles need turn signals.. 1953 and newer vehicles in NYS need them.. That said, what does that have to do with driving at night ??

CHuDWah · 11-10-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

The DMV won't know what day of the week it is!

Like anywhere else, it depends on the clerk you get - some are knowledgeable, others can't find their butts with both hands and a flashlight.

Anyhoo, most states "grandfather" an exemption from current equipment requirements as long as the vehicle has equipment that was required at the time of its manufacture. Unfortunately, that's not always reliable and, even if it is, you may have trouble convincing the cop who just stopped you for an equipment violation. Most states also have their vehicle code, including required equipment, online although it may take some searching to find. To wit,

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.57

which states, "On or after July 1, 1949, it shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any new motor vehicle, excepting motorcycles, motor scooters, and bicycles with motor attached, unless it is equipped with turn signals meeting the requirements of this chapter."

By extension, I would interpret that to mean it's also illegal to OPERATE said vehicle, night AND day. If so, your pre-49 A would be legal but your buddy's 1953 Jeep would not

Milton · 11-10-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHuDWah

which states, "On or after July 1, 1949, it shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any new motor vehicle, excepting motorcycles, motor scooters, and bicycles with motor attached, unless it is equipped with turn signals meeting the requirements of this chapter."

By extension, I would interpret that to mean it's also illegal to OPERATE said vehicle, night AND day. If so, your pre-49 A would be legal but your buddy's 1953 Jeep would not

The way I read this is "to sell or offer for sale". This way it can be driven by the owner but cannot be sold unless brought up to code. I would guess the vehicle inspection at change of ownership would be the way to enforce it.

The preceding is a WAG on my part.

RonC · 11-10-2011, 03:26 PM

Each State has their own motor vehicle laws. In MN it's prohibited at night by State statute. See https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.19

CarlG · 11-10-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHuDWah

...
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.57

which states, "On or after July 1, 1949, it shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any new motor vehicle, excepting motorcycles, motor scooters, and bicycles with motor attached, unless it is equipped with turn signals meeting the requirements of this chapter."...

The word here is NEW vehicle. It would appear that it's OK to sell or offer for sale a USED vehicle of any year of manufacture not so equipped.

MALAK · 11-10-2011, 04:08 PM

If you call the DMV 3 times you'd probably get 3 different answers.

RonC · 11-10-2011, 04:19 PM

It appears once sold as new, your car no longer is required to have lamp or mechanical signals, just hand signals, unless you can't see the hand signals due to obstruction or at night. If the vehicle has any signals on the vehicle then they must work.

J Franklin · 11-10-2011, 04:36 PM

If someone can't see your hand signals at night then their headlights are not working properly.

azmodela · 11-10-2011, 04:57 PM

Good thing you guys aren't defending anyone here in a court of law!

Turn signals are required on a car sold after the 1949 date. The word "new" is in there to indicate it doesn't apply to new or used cars sold before that date. The words "new car sold" also indirectly imply manufactured. Its easy to track down the sold date, but not the manufacture date, especially in this era since the turn signal law was likely locally enacted, and not federally enacted as it is now.

So, the modern interpretation would be any new car manufactured (sold) after that date must have turn signal lamps or mechanical turn signals (semaphores) to operate on MN roads.

Herein lies the key difference. It does not prohibit one from operating or registering the car without turn signals, only to sell a new car without them. But, you must signal your intent to turn by either signal lamps, mechanical signal, or hand signal.

In Tom's original example, he can operate that Jeep without signal lamps or mechanical signals as long as he does hand signals.

And before you say the Jeep is a 53' and the law went into effect in 49'.... The vehicle could have been sold in a state that didn't have a signal lamp law until 1955, and registered in MN in 1970!

amodel25 · 11-10-2011, 05:12 PM

My 1951 Ford 2 door came from the factory without turn signals. My 1955 Ch**y panel truck was sold new with a single tail light and no turn signals. Does that mean if I lived in MN I would have to upgrade to be legal?

hardtimes · 11-10-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

The other day I rode with my neighbor to Midwest Military to pick up some parts for his 1953 Army jeep. One thing he was buying was the original taillights and the store owner told him most emphatically that he couldn't drive his Jeep at night because it didn't have turn signals.

My Model A's don't have turn signals and I've never been bothered by driving at night. I'm sure the guy was dead wrong, but he sounded so sure of himself. I could call DMV, but I'm not sure they would know either.

Tom,
"leagal"....well the 'store owner' who sells jeep parts is uaually the sheriff and DMV representative... in those thar parts also,eh

The bad part about repeating nonsense is that is grows with a life of its' own with time and everytime repeated until thars a warrant out for your arrest for slander/gossip

Hmm, I am aware of some strange laws tho in some strange places where 'they' might hangya for not having proper taillights..

Anybody know a GOOD outhouse lawyer????

29 Tudor · 11-10-2011, 08:10 PM

In 1958, we lived in Florida and my Dad bought a new Ford pickup truck. I remember it quite well because I got to drive it on our property once in a while. As delivered, it had ONE stop/tail light (on the left) and NO turn signals.

Milton · 11-10-2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azmodela

Good thing you guys aren't defending anyone here in a court of law!

Hah, now you know why the blindfolded lady with scales is not my avatar.

Dave72dt · 11-10-2011, 08:46 PM

I've had/worked on 3 different '51 pickups, 2 different brands, 2 different states. 2 had turn signals, 1 had stop and tail only, left side. According to MN law, signal must be visible front and rear. I can't see what the driver is doing with his arm behind the headlights and I'm probably following too close behind if I can see that arm at night from behind. I'd say the clerk was correct.

11-10-2011, 01:43 PM	#1
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! The other day I rode with my neighbor to Midwest Military to pick up some parts for his 1953 Army jeep. One thing he was buying was the original taillights and the store owner told him most emphatically that he couldn't drive his Jeep at night because it didn't have turn signals. My Model A's don't have turn signals and I've never been bothered by driving at night. I'm sure the guy was dead wrong, but he sounded so sure of himself. I could call DMV, but I'm not sure they would know either.

11-10-2011, 01:45 PM	#2
Seth Swoboda Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 3,785	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! The DMV won't know what day of the week it is!

11-10-2011, 02:09 PM	#4
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! I hope he got them cheap since the vehicle cannot be used at night with them. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

11-10-2011, 02:14 PM	#5
bogdonj Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Walkerton, Ont. Canada Posts: 623	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! tie some fluorescent lights to your left arm so people can see what way your turning at night haha __________________ _________________________________________ 1931 Ford Model A Tudor 1930 Ford Model A Deluxe Roadster 1930 Ford Original Rolling Chassis- Restoring

11-10-2011, 02:17 PM	#6
JoeWay Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy CA Posts: 752	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It is rare for a state to require equipment in addition to the original. The sort of exceptions I'm aware of are things like seat belts for children, turn signals IF TOWING A TRAILER, that sort of thing involving higher levels of use. Even here in California, turn signals and right taillights are not required if they were not installed originally. Joe __________________ 1929 Tudor since 1962 Feather River A's

11-10-2011, 02:19 PM	#7
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! I believe all 1953 street legal vehicles need turn signals.. 1953 and newer vehicles in NYS need them.. That said, what does that have to do with driving at night ??

11-10-2011, 03:26 PM	#10
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,868	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! Each State has their own motor vehicle laws. In MN it's prohibited at night by State statute. See https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.19

11-10-2011, 04:08 PM	#12
MALAK Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Highland, CA Posts: 207	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! If you call the DMV 3 times you'd probably get 3 different answers.

11-10-2011, 04:19 PM	#13
RonC Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,868	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! It appears once sold as new, your car no longer is required to have lamp or mechanical signals, just hand signals, unless you can't see the hand signals due to obstruction or at night. If the vehicle has any signals on the vehicle then they must work.

11-10-2011, 04:36 PM	#14
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! If someone can't see your hand signals at night then their headlights are not working properly.

11-10-2011, 04:57 PM	#15
azmodela BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 352	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! Good thing you guys aren't defending anyone here in a court of law! Turn signals are required on a car sold after the 1949 date. The word "new" is in there to indicate it doesn't apply to new or used cars sold before that date. The words "new car sold" also indirectly imply manufactured. Its easy to track down the sold date, but not the manufacture date, especially in this era since the turn signal law was likely locally enacted, and not federally enacted as it is now. So, the modern interpretation would be any new car manufactured (sold) after that date must have turn signal lamps or mechanical turn signals (semaphores) to operate on MN roads. Herein lies the key difference. It does not prohibit one from operating or registering the car without turn signals, only to sell a new car without them. But, you must signal your intent to turn by either signal lamps, mechanical signal, or hand signal. In Tom's original example, he can operate that Jeep without signal lamps or mechanical signals as long as he does hand signals. And before you say the Jeep is a 53' and the law went into effect in 49'.... The vehicle could have been sold in a state that didn't have a signal lamp law until 1955, and registered in MN in 1970!

11-10-2011, 05:12 PM	#16
amodel25 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Crowley, TX Posts: 328	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! My 1951 Ford 2 door came from the factory without turn signals. My 1955 Ch**y panel truck was sold new with a single tail light and no turn signals. Does that mean if I lived in MN I would have to upgrade to be legal?

11-10-2011, 08:10 PM	#18
29 Tudor Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Magnolia, TX Posts: 161	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! In 1958, we lived in Florida and my Dad bought a new Ford pickup truck. I remember it quite well because I got to drive it on our property once in a while. As delivered, it had ONE stop/tail light (on the left) and NO turn signals.

11-10-2011, 08:46 PM	#20
Dave72dt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: SW WI Posts: 359	Re: Not leagal to drive at night? Hogwash! I've had/worked on 3 different '51 pickups, 2 different brands, 2 different states. 2 had turn signals, 1 had stop and tail only, left side. According to MN law, signal must be visible front and rear. I can't see what the driver is doing with his arm behind the headlights and I'm probably following too close behind if I can see that arm at night from behind. I'd say the clerk was correct.