purchasing flathead camshafts who do we turn to?

[4tford]

Well I am not sure how to word this but here goes. We all know the excellent job Kiwi Tony has done in getting the L-100 back on the market but if this is not the cam we want or need then where do we turn? Speedway, Isky, etc?? Many of us know that Pete also provides cams but I am sure very few of us are really aware of his vast and many years of experience. I am aware that Pete is not one to blow his own horn so I would like to ask him in a nice way to please step in here and tell us about his business, what his most popular cam grinds are and maybe give us an idea of what to look for in the way of a cam when designing a new motor. I for one need to learn more. Thanks Bill

[texas webb]

I'll second this,as many would like to know what's available.Of course depending on how you build your engine.

[Ol' Ron]

I find the Speedway cams to be very expensive, including adj, lifters. A reground cam for the street can save you a buck or two. However, choosing a street cam?? is near imposable. Most hi lift cams require head work or new Edelbrock heads. Offy's won't clear an L-100.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 4tford

Well I am not sure how to word this but here goes. We all know the excellent job Kiwi Tony has done in getting the L-100 back on the market but if this is not the cam we want or need then where do we turn? Speedway, Isky, etc?? Many of us know that Pete also provides cams but I am sure very few of us are really aware of his vast and many years of experience. I am aware that Pete is not one to blow his own horn so I would like to ask him in a nice way to please step in here and tell us about his business, what his most popular cam grinds are and maybe give us an idea of what to look for in the way of a cam when designing a new motor. I for one need to learn more. Thanks Bill

I will try to word this post so that it meets forum rules but answers Bill's questions.
I know of a shop on the west coast that builds vintage circle track race cars for various venues. They build engines for these cars a also. They used to do the complete engine machine work in house including hot tanking, crank grinding and align boring.
When the owner semi retired several years ago they sold off the crank grinder (Van Norman), align boring machine (AMC2500), dyno (Clayton), and got rid of the hot tank due to the EPA.
They kept the cam grinder, valve equipment (Serdi), and the boring bars (Kwikway).
The owner spends a lot of time now shooting, building guns and fishing. He keeps the shop busy to pay the taxes, power bill and the hobby expenses.
In a long talk recently about cams, he told me most of the cams he does now are for flathead Fords. About half are all out race grinds and half street grinds. He said the most popular race cam seems to be the 404A with the 425 a close second. He said he is the only one left in business making lifters for the 404. He said he is the only one left furnishing drilled lifters for race applications. They are 10 grams lighter than stock.
He said the 1007B is by far the most popular street cam he sells and while many people don't completely understand why it is superior to other grinds in the same class the simple answer is it has a higher RATE of lift. It was designed to make horsepower in the low and midrange rpm's but still not flatten off at 5000.
He told me he has several other popular street grinds such as the Potvin 3/8 and the H&C 6372. He said he has several proprietary race grinds but declined to discuss them. I asked him about 4 banger cams and he said he does quite a few so called "touring" cams for street applications, the most popular being the 77B.
I asked where most of his sales come from since he "semi' retired and he said the internet. He said about the time he retired he moved way out in the sticks to get away from the noise, the rush of the masses and walk in customers. He enjoys talking to race people and either knows or has met just about all of the well known people connected with all forms racing. He has over the years participated in just about all forms of racing on wheels, even a couple of years in hydroplanes.
He still puts on an occasional seminar/get together on cam grinding but usually limits it to about 5 people.
I asked about his pet peeves. He said the biggest was getting up in the morning and hearing about another highly knowledgeable racing friend croaking.
Another one was people that pose as cam grinders and are nothing more than a marketing outlet for a true cam grinding business.

[42merc]

save

[texas webb]

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Thanks Pete.Nice story,sounds like quite a man.

[4tford]

Thanks Pete, can I assume if someone needed a camshaft other than an l-100 they could send you a PM and you could help them out??

[Tim Ayers]

Pete, that guy sounds like someone you know really well.

Pete certainly knows his stuff. I also wouldn't forget about George at Clay Smith Cams for comparison sake. I had him grind a few cams they look like a jeweler did the work. Sadly, Bill Jenks is now longer with us, but his was the sole grinder of Potvin cams when he was still with us.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 4tford

Thanks Pete, can I assume if someone needed a camshaft other than an l-100 they could send you a PM and you could help them out??

I can put them in touch with the guy.

[JWL]

HMMmmmm. That guy sounds familiar.

[bbrocksr]

Is his name Pete ?
Bill

[Ol' Ron]

I'd really like to meet this guy, seems to know his business.

[Krylon32]

I've used a reground mild performance cam from Baxter Ford Parts in Lawrence Kansas. Can't remember the price but it was not expensive. I bought all the parts from them and I thought it was reasonable.

[PeterC]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

Is his name Pete ?
Bill

No ... but he looks just like Pete

[19Fordy]

Is the "Pete" mentioned in the following thread the same "Pete" being discussed here?
Scroll down to Post #20.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...dation.118991/

[4tford]

Yes at D&L Automachine

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Is the "Pete" mentioned in the following thread the same "Pete" being discussed here?
Scroll down to Post #20.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...dation.118991/

Thats a great thread 19Fordy !!!
Sure are a lot of L100,s out there !!!
Thanks

[chap52]

Eric at Go Cats Speed Shop provided me with a Howard grind 3/4 cam which I am really pleased with. Here is the web site: www.Gocatspeedshop.com This sitealso has videos of flatties he has built being fired up. Several cid, carb and cam combinations to "listen to". Some folks listen to classical music to relax. I enjoy listening to these flatheads singing.

[Elmo Rodge]

Pete took me to that guys shop a few years ago. Waitaminit. That was 14 years ago. Wow. Wayno

[Tim Ayers]

Their is also Nielson Cams in MT (I think).

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Their is also Nielson Cams in MT (I think).

I talked to Nielson about a year ago about a Nielson cam that I have, He sent me a sheet of all the flathead cams that he can grind. He has a good price on grinding your core also. Walt

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

I talked to Nielson about a year ago about a Nielson cam that I have, He sent me a sheet of all the flathead cams that he can grind. He has a good price on grinding your core also. Walt

Chris also offers a grind similar to the famous Weber F4. The F4 is in the same ball park as the Potvin 3/8, L100 and Clay Smith 272-2. It has a little less lift that the Potvin and L100 @ .340 but has a fairly radical lobe design and is a quick action cam.

I don't have one, but from I understand from guys that run it they say it sounds like a mean one.

For those on budget, don't forget about Delta Cams. I believe their grinds are all under $100 and offer a quick turn around. Delta's offerings are large, but they do offer some of the good ones. 400Jr, 1007, Winfield SU-1A and Max 1.

Interesting story about the Winfield SU-1A. I believe the only person that had the true master of this cam was Kong. There a lot of SU-1A grinds that are not as radical as the true design. If I recall correctly, Winfield offered a few versions of this grind.

The one used by some of the 1/4 mile guys is not the same grind offered by some regrinders.

[Tony, NY]

Never hear much talk about Schnieder cams. Why?
http://schneidercams.com/ford_flathead-solid.aspx

[4tford]

Look at the dollars they are asking. Both Pete and Kiwi Tony are way below that and both sell an excellent product. Schneider cost me around $460 Canadian before shipping.

[Tony, NY]

Yes. That's for new cams. They say they do regrinds. Don't know the cost.

[Tim Brown]

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I have installed the Schnieder 248 cam in my last 2 flatheads. Its a very mild cam. Idles down nice and very good on the street. I want to go far, not fast....

[HOTROD_WILLIE]

I like Kiwi Tony L100 cam for the money. My friend has one in his car very nice cam for the money. I plan to put one in my car. Plus Tony cars just came in First and Second place at Daytona 500.

[rockfla]

PETE,

There was a fellow years ago here in Jax that was very well known for cams and cranks for flat heads named Frank Schooler. He did engines for all the old time racers all over the southeast since we are an hour from Ormand Beach/Daytona. Not sure if your racing buddy ever heard of Schooler cams or Knew Frank but I do know of one flat head left here in the area in a 34 coupe that Frank rebuilt personally and broke it in after he built it. He called it his 3/4 motor because it wasn't all the way race but would haula$$ on the street. If there's any interest???? not sure I could get any measurement but could try.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by rockfla

PETE,

There was a fellow years ago here in Jax that was very well known for cams and cranks for flat heads named Frank Schooler. He did engines for all the old time racers all over the southeast since we are an hour from Ormand Beach/Daytona. Not sure if your racing buddy ever heard of Schooler cams or Knew Frank but I do know of one flat head left here in the area in a 34 coupe that Frank rebuilt personally and broke it in after he built it. He called it his 3/4 motor because it wasn't all the way race but would haula$$ on the street. If there's any interest???? not sure I could get any measurement but could try.

I have heard of Schooler cams.
A customer brought one in for a regrind several years ago. I put a 1007B over it and the customer said his engine felt like he had added 2 more cylinders.

[Tim Ayers]

I find these cam conversations a bit funny. Everyone pipes in what they think is best, but yet nobody asks some important questions about the end result. For example: A cam recommendation for a heavy car like a fat fender Ford may be a lot different then a car 1/2 it's weight (AV8 roadster).

The cam for a 239 may different for a 296 stroker.

My point is, these conversations are getting to be a lot like the cam war ads found in the hot rod mags of the 60's and 70's.

Just because a 1007B or L100 worked for Joe Smo, doesn't mean it will work for you.

Just like aluminum flywheels and LZ gears. They all have their place, but that place may not be best in your car. Make sense?

[Ol' Ron]

Tim, you hit the nail on the head..

[38 coupe]

For people who want to school themselves on how flathead cams work and what they should look for, the information on this site can't be beat: http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Ca...rformance.html

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Tim, you hit the nail on the head..

Thanks Ron. Like you've always said, could always take it out if you don't like it.

I truly wish there was an easier way to get an idea of how a cam would perform instead of having to place it in an engine.

Like many of you, I love cams. I've actually gotten much better at not buying cams to just add to the collection. I don't know why I love them so much, but there is an air of mystery about them. Black magic some would say.

I think I got hooked on the magic of a cam when I spoke to an old dirt track racer. This gentleman use to race at Flemington Speedway and told me about how they would literally grind a cam in the pits if it wasn't work up to their ideas. He, and others, called them belly grinds. At first I thought he was full of shit. Then, while in 8th grade, I went on field trip to the Mack Truck factory.

I still remember the cam grinding section. The tour guy said that the worker (lets call him Joe) could tell if a cam was out a thou of inch just by looking at it and running his finger over it.
Sure as hell, Joe ran his finger over a finished cam. He put a mic to it and it was out of spec. and on the reject pile it went. From that day on, I've been hooked on cams. Don't ask me what correlation a diesel engine and a flathead V8 have, all I know I wanted to know more about these lumpy sticks.

After seeing Joe work his magic over the cams in his charge, it made me realize that it would actually be possible for someone to grind a cam in the pits if they really knew what they were doing. Wouldn't be the most accurate, but hell, you were losing so why not take a chance in the next heat?

I still find it amazing that you can change the performance of an engine just by changing the timing of the intake and exhaust valves.

In my travels I've picked up some NOS cams that I'd really like to know how they'd perform.

Melling A-200 **
Crane 353-2 ** (East Coast roundy round guys go ga ga over this one)
** Both of these cams are ground on new billets and are not regrounds
*** The Melling came with two different feeler gauges wire tied to the snout. Not sure why I love that, but I do. Plus, the original box just oozes old timey speed shop. Proudly proclaims "for racing only!" Who could resist that call? You? Not me!

-Clay Smith 272-2 and 284-2. I had George and his crew @ Clay Smith grind these since I wanted to have some of Clay's magic sitting on my shelf.

-Potvin 3/8ths. Ground by the late Bill Jenks. I know he wouldn't have remembered, but I still recall my conversation with him about the cam. He told me about his old roadster and this was the cam he used. Bill shared some stories and told me why he liked this grind so much.

When my cam was done, he called to tell me it was ready and how he hadn't seen a wide lobe cam in years and wanted to tell me my core was one of the nicest he'd seen in a long time. I thanked him and told him it was an honor to have him grind my cam. In turn, he wrote a nice note on the back of the timing card. How friggin' cool is that?

Best of luck to all of you who are trying to find magic in that lumpy billet of cast iron you got in your mills. I hope you find a good one. In the end, nothing sounds like a well-tuned, full race flathead blatting out those exhaust notes from some straight pipes. It's like Beethoven's god damn 5th symphony to the mechanically inclined.

You either get it or you don't. Once you do get it, there is no cure. Only more sickness. I'll take more of this sickness any day of the week.

Here is some required reading if you've got cam fever....
http://www.midstateantiquestockcarcl...at_heads4.html

[Kahuna]

Thanks, Tim for posting that info. Lots of good reading and fun stuff from long ago
Jim

[HOTROD_WILLIE]

Originally Posted by Pete

I have heard of Schooler cams.
A customer brought one in for a regrind several years ago. I put a 1007B over it and the customer said his engine felt like he had added 2 more cylinders.

Pete can example a little more deal. What you did to the cam? I don't understand. Thanks

[rockfla]

I've been following this thread and though I've been around flatheads all my life (50 years old) I am getting more interested in the intricate details of the flathead which is why I'm asking (and learning). I read the links to the performance cams so where can one learn what L100 is and 1007B an all the others talked about in this thread as they are not listed on the performance cam chart linked in this thread?????

[Ol' Ron]

I spent allot of time back in the 60's as the engine man on a car running at the Danbury speed way in Ct. My Mentor was a fellow named Bill Barth. I had been running a SBC at the drags and had a Hemi powerd 47 Plymoth, but that's another story. After changind a bunch of cams over the years I finaly landed on the 400jr. This was a good education on the power a cam can provide when racing. The last two seasons were run with the Sig Errson D410 which was a marked improvement over the 400 jr. However, after we installed it, it didn't sound as radical as the 400jr/ On the track it proved to be much stronger off the corners and held it down the straightaways. So I too fell in love with cams
Ny next love afair came in the late 80's. I was working in a body shop sobering up, when a fellow asked me if I would put a flathead together for him? Why not, I needed the money. After looking over all the stuff he had bought I told him the cam was no good for the application. A 5500 lb 1942 Ford Ambulance. He told me that Mike Hart said it was a great cam and that was good enough for him. Well the rest is history, it ran that big tub of lead as well as I could ever expected. Cruising down the interstates at 70-75 mph and getting 18 mpg. I was in love again and installed them in almost every engine I built. Now I have no idea how well it would preform on a race track, but it's a great street cam in most applications.

[Tony, NY]

Ol' Ron. What cam was it you put in the big tub?

[Ol' Ron]

It was the L-100, sorry about that. Since then I realized the numbers didn't mean all that much. Just try it, you might like it. I doubt that Pete has never seen one let alone run one. And yes, I think the 1007B is a great cam as well, because I have run it, along with the Howard F-9. But I picked the L-100 as the best street cam and have sold dozens of them and had no complaints.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by HOTROD_WILLIE

Pete can example a little more deal. What you did to the cam? I don't understand. Thanks

I just ground the 1007B on the core as if it was starting from a stock cam. You can do this as long as the base circle is not too small to start with.

[bobH]

There's a 'ton' of good reading material here. Makes me feel really 'inadequate', and emphasizes how much I could learn. Thanks to all. And greatful for those tilden and mid state references.
JMO

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

It was the L-100, sorry about that. Since then I realized the numbers didn't mean all that much. Just try it, you might like it. I doubt that Pete has never seen one let alone run one. And yes, I think the 1007B is a great cam as well, because I have run it, along with the Howard F-9. But I picked the L-100 as the best street cam and have sold dozens of them and had no complaints.

The "Master Has Spoken !" with this legendary experience ! you know every last word in this quote is "FACT"
Ol'Ron has so much proven experience he is willing to share with us all , we are so blessed ! He is a man that has actually tried it all & does not assume like some . What he educates us on is from his envied experience .
Thanks so much for all the knowledge you share with us "OL'Ron"
Cheers
KiWi-Tony
Ron what is your experience with the 1007LD ?

[Pete]

Quote from Ol' Ron.
"I doubt that Pete has never seen one let alone run one."

Yes, I have seen several. I have put various grinds over them.
You are right in that I have never run one. It has no place in a race engine.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Pete

Quote from Ol' Ron.
"I doubt that Pete has never seen one let alone run one."

Yes, I have seen several. I have put various grinds over them.
You are right in that I have never run one. It has no place in a race engine.

Ahh we all understand , your engines wouldnt stay together with the power of the L100 you had to de-tune them with a re-re-grind , all makes sense !

[Pete]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Ahh we all understand , your engines wouldnt stay together with the power of the L100 you had to de-tune them with a re-re-grind , all makes sense !

ROFLMAO.....
Good one.

[Binx]

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Originally Posted by KiWinUS

The "Master Has Spoken !" with this legendary experience ! you know every last word in this quote is "FACT"
Ol'Ron has so much proven experience he is willing to share with us all , we are so blessed ! He is a man that has actually tried it all & does not assume like some . What he educates us on is from his envied experience .
Thanks so much for all the knowledge you share with us "OL'Ron"
Cheers
KiWi-Tony
Ron what is your experience with the 1007LD ?

Tony, don't be so glib. As I recall you copied a cam from the previous grinder which makes yours 2nd generation or later. You don't have the original master so you're riding a wave. Don't be that guy. You may want to set up an engine with a degree wheel and dial gauges to be sure of what you are selling.

Lonnie

[Fordors]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

The "Master Has Spoken !" with this legendary experience ! you know every last word in this quote is "FACT"
Ol'Ron has so much proven experience he is willing to share with us all , we are so blessed ! He is a man that has actually tried it all & does not assume like some . What he educates us on is from his envied experience .
Thanks so much for all the knowledge you share with us "OL'Ron"
Cheers
KiWi-Tony
Ron what is your experience with the 1007LD ?

Well at least picking a cam based on an endorsement is better than buying one because you listened to the audio of a flathead on youtube.

[Ol' Ron]

One thing I know for sure, I wouldn't know the first thing about designing or grinding a cam, and I have a great deal of respect for those that do. Guys like Pete and David Generous do this for a living. Sometines I thik Pete can be a little obstinate, but that's due to Old age. We get cranky sometimes. I raced in lower classes than he did both at the drags and on the track. I tried allot of things that didn't work, but I learned by my failures. At my age now, I just like to help people. and the real hero here is David generous. Also the 1007B is a very good cam. I have run one and I have one in KGS engine. So lets let sleeping dogs lay.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

One thing I know for sure, I wouldn't know the first thing about designing or grinding a cam, and I have a great deal of respect for those that do. Guys like Pete and David Generous do this for a living. Sometines I thik Pete can be a little obstinate, but that's due to Old age. We get cranky sometimes. I raced in lower classes than he did both at the drags and on the track. I tried allot of things that didn't work, but I learned by my failures. At my age now, I just like to help people. and the real hero here is David generous. Also the 1007B is a very good cam. I have run one and I have one in KGS engine. So lets let sleeping dogs lay.

It was meant as humor, Ron.
Oh, and I may look old but everything still works... LOL

[Ol' Ron]

Wish I could say the same, but I'm still game.

[HotRodmicky]

Originally Posted by Binx

Tony, don't be so glib. As I recall you copied a cam from the previous grinder which makes yours 2nd generation or later. You don't have the original master so you're riding a wave. Don't be that guy. You may want to set up an engine with a degree wheel and dial gauges to be sure of what you are selling.

Lonnie

He just want to sell his cams.....

[Tim Ayers]

Judging by some of these posts, one would believe the L100 is better than that little blue pill...

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by Binx

Tony, don't be so glib. As I recall you copied a cam from the previous grinder which makes yours 2nd generation or later. You don't have the original master so you're riding a wave. Don't be that guy. You may want to set up an engine with a degree wheel and dial gauges to be sure of what you are selling.

Lonnie

Binx, I think you are correct. Early on when the L100 started being promoted, the story on the 'barn was that Dave bought the masters and "cleaned them up" someway by computer and developed what he was selling. So his cam probably wasn't what the Litero Bros were making, but maybe performed better. 'Ol Ron might can clear this up.

and I think it would be great if Tony (or somebody with the skills) would verify the Kiwi L100 specs if it hasn't been done already.

[rockfla]

This may be getting a little off topic but.....I have a 59AB I would like to massage from stock, any suggestions on cam, head work, 2 or 3 carbs, etc etc. I want a very streetable motor nothing radical. I was able, a while back, to drive a "stock looking" ROUSH built flathead or as they said a standard rebuild. I think they said in that form that it was about 165hp, I know driving it, it was like no other flathead I had ever driven. I think ROUSH uses scat crank, modified SBC rods, and they said they use the "OLE" police polish on the intake side, not much to do other than that on the intake side????? I know Ole Ron has preached the milling of the standard heads.....so any input would be greatly appreciated.

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Binx, I think you are correct. Early on when the L100 started being promoted, the story on the 'barn was that Dave bought the masters and "cleaned them up" someway by computer and developed what he was selling. So his cam probably wasn't what the Litero Bros were making, but maybe performed better. 'Ol Ron might can clear this up.

and I think it would be great if Tony (or somebody with the skills) would verify the Kiwi L100 specs if it hasn't been done already.

Not a problem Gene , I have listed this previously & also the details of how we arrived at the 2014 KiWi-L100.
Here are the specs:-
standard timing check @.015 tappet travel
IN. opens 30*BTDC close 68*ABDC
EX.opens 66*BBDC close 24*ATDC
111* lobe centers
Lift IN..368 EX .369
Duration @.050 IN 246* EX 238*
Having built flatheads for over 46 years & collecting Ford Flathead speed Equipment including a large collection of "Original " hot rod cams of all brands , some still new including a Winfield in box from Winfield , New Isky 404 & radius lifters are just a couple , for 46 years also , I to have tried many of the "Good Ole " cams & as many of these very knowledgeable flathead & cam guys on here know there is a lot more to a great running flathead than just the cam. No different than any other engine or race engine& having spent over 40 very successful years building race engines & race cars for all kinds of racing I too like Ol'Ron have learnt many things the hard way !
Cheers
Tony

[Kahuna]

Tony
please check the duration @ .050 listed. I don't think it's correct

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

Tony
please check the duration @ .050 listed. I don't think it's correct

Thank you so much , it is now correct ,trying to hurry at lunch time
Cheers
Tony

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Judging by some of these posts, one would believe the L100 is better than that little blue pill...

Tim , it is ! The way it runs & the way it sounds it sure works the same for me
& it doesn't complain !

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Tim , it is ! The way it runs & the way it sounds it sure works the same for me
& it doesn't complain !

Tony

Funny and oddly true, but not an image any of us would ever what to see.

Cheers!

Tim

[KiWinUS]

Originally Posted by rockfla

This may be getting a little off topic but.....I have a 59AB I would like to massage from stock, any suggestions on cam, head work, 2 or 3 carbs, etc etc. I want a very streetable motor nothing radical. I was able, a while back, to drive a "stock looking" ROUSH built flathead or as they said a standard rebuild. I think they said in that form that it was about 165hp, I know driving it, it was like no other flathead I had ever driven. I think ROUSH uses scat crank, modified SBC rods, and they said they use the "OLE" police polish on the intake side, not much to do other than that on the intake side????? I know Ole Ron has preached the milling of the standard heads.....so any input would be greatly appreciated.

G'Day rockfla , well since you asked I would strongly suggest a KiWi-L100 cam for your hot rod build . Will sound like a hot rod & run strong like a hot rod should !
Well I have worked for Jack Roush for a long time & can call him a friend even longer , like 30 years & he is a real flathead nut !!! He has many old cars , most in Detroit but I take care of his stunning 40 coupe he keeps in his hangar here in Charlotte . I have done a lot of work to it over the years . It has been in the "Great Race" twice & wrecked bad the last time it was entered. Now to the engine !!! First this flatty freakin runs ...........has original type trans & rear axle , hydraulic clutch , stock brakes , stock looking aluminum radiator . Modified Mallory distributor with 2 pick up & 2 MSD boxes , Large aluminum gas tank with 2 electric pumps & regulators . A single Stromberg "48" carb , painted Canadian aluminum heads .3 5/16 bore with 4 1/4 crank. It has Jacks own design lightweight pistons with narrow metric rings . The most stunning stainless headers with slip joints you could imagine. I have driven it a bunch even from Charlotte down to the Moonshine Festival in Charlotte a few years ago. It is fast , I have never checked what rear gears it has but I had it up to 110 (by GPS) & it was still pulling strong.When I told Jack I had it that fast his big smile lit up & said it should do 125!!! its very docile & will pull high gear from 30mph but when you get to 65 this baby lays you back in the seat & wants to run . So fun to drive & I am so glad you had the oportunity to drive one of these similar engines !!!
Cheers
Tony

[Ol' Ron]

Just curious, Do you know Tom Farrell?? He's my nephew.

[KiWinUS]

G'Day Ron , yes I do . I met him last year at a car show ,suprised I had not meet him years earlier as he has known soms good friends of mine for years & when he was at Penske our shop was next door .
Cheers
Tony

[Ol' Ron]

He runs a restoration shop now. I'm pretty proud of him, pretty sharp guy.

[ProfessorGT]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

For people who want to school themselves on how flathead cams work and what they should look for, the information on this site can't be beat: http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Ca...rformance.html

Thanks very much for this link. Extremely good and detailed info. I'm thinking most of this should carry over to my HV-12 which I am trying to decide on a cam for. I'm running dyno simulations with EAPro, both NA (naturally aspirated), supercharged and turbocharged. So far the turbos have shown the best results, so I may lean that way, however I don't believe the software takes into account, the heat removed from the exhaust by the cooling system due to the "unique" designe of a flathead. This will surely reduce the effectiveness of the turbos, but by how much, is the real question. Hmmmm!

[Fortunateson]

How about the Max1 in a light car with a 255 Merc and a .0030 overbore?

[Pete]

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Originally Posted by Fortunateson

How about the Max1 in a light car with a 255 Merc and a .0030 overbore?

For that combination you need more lift velocity in the cam formula. That will give you more area under the lift curve which will give much better driveability which will give you much better feel in the seat of the pants.
There is only one grind commonly available these days that will fill that bill.
The 1007B.

[Fortunateson]

So Pete, the Max1 is not a good choice or is it not readily available?

[my4dv8]

I have had this cam for a while it was labeled as Isky 1007B . Then yesterday i saw the Harman and Collins 60 14 etching. Any thoughts on the numbers?

[VeryTangled]

Very interesting information being exchanged here. Thanks from a clueless rube.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by my4dv8

I have had this cam for a while it was labeled as Isky 1007B . Then yesterday i saw the Harman and Collins 60 14 etching. Any thoughts on the numbers?

Found the specs from an old thread on the HAMB. Pete posted them.

Here are the specs.

In 19-61
Ex 60-18
Lift .333
In .011
Ex .013
Road grind in engines over 255 ci.

Going off these specs, no where near an Isky 1007B

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

So Pete, the Max1 is not a good choice or is it not readily available?

It is not a good choice. A stock EA (53 Ford) would work better.
I think Isky still does them.

[Fortunateson]

Pete, what about the stock ‘49 Merc cam?

[glennpm]

Hi, an interesting thread.

A few comparisons I did last Spring are attached.

Regarding, "For that combination you need more lift velocity in the cam formula. That will give you more area under the lift curve which will give much better driveability which will give you much better feel in the seat of the pants.
There is only one grind commonly available these days that will fill that bill.
The 1007B."

Care to comment on this Pete, et all?

Glenn

[outlaw]

That is a cool comparison chart, wheel, & diagram. Have you thought about doing that for other flathead camshafts? Thank you for sharing. Bill

[glennpm]

Hi Bill,


No I haven't, lots of work to create!
Hoping for more info on Pete's Comment, "give you more area under the lift curve"


Glenn

[Ol' Ron]

For an old thread, this one is sure running good. As an old fart, the last engine I built for myself was the 280 (3 5/16 +.020 X4). It was originally had an L-100. But I replaced it with anEAB and rotators, stock springs ans short valves plus a .060" shim. 2gc carb sbc dist. Truck has the RTV 3spwod trans 3.73 posi rear.
I've never driven a truck with this much torque. The drivability is fantastic, Had it over 4 K and it was still pulling.
Gramps.
PS Truck is for sale less engine.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Hi Bill,


No I haven't, lots of work to create!
Hoping for more info on Pete's Comment, "give you more area under the lift curve"


Glenn

Basically it is the time and rate a valve is opened. The steeper the sides the more area. More lift, more area. More duration, more area. All of this has to be balanced with intended use, materials and expected longeviety of the system.

[glennpm]

Thank you Pete.


Maybe Tony can show us what the L-100 ramp looks like

[outlaw]

Pete, Thank you!

[frnkeore]

I have a question for Pete, JWL, Ronnie Roadster or any one else, that might have tried designing their own cams and actually racing them.

How much have you guys experimented with LSA (lobe separation angle) or ICL (intake center line)?

We all know that the 111 LSA has been a standard for the V8 since the beginning of time and varies little for street or race cams. Mostly 110 - 113 are the max deviation. But, how many have advanced (or retarded) the ICL and if so, how much and what was the result?

Advancing the ICL, all other things equal, will always increase the DCR (dynamic compression ratio). That is the actual CR the engine has, after the intake valve closes.

Usually advancing the ICL increases the average torque of the engine but, reduces max HP, by a little but, in drag and circle track, it will lower ET & lap times.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

I have a question for Pete, JWL, Ronnie Roadster or any one else, that might have tried designing their own cams and actually racing them.

How much have you guys experimented with LSA (lobe separation angle) or ICL (intake center line)?

We all know that the 111 LSA has been a standard for the V8 since the beginning of time and varies little for street or race cams. Mostly 110 - 113 are the max deviation. But, how many have advanced (or retarded) the ICL and if so, how much and what was the result?

Advancing the ICL, all other things equal, will always increase the DCR (dynamic compression ratio). That is the actual CR the engine has, after the intake valve closes.

Usually advancing the ICL increases the average torque of the engine but, reduces max HP, by a little but, in drag and circle track, it will lower ET & lap times.

To answer your first question, very little for flathead Fords. There was not a need.
The grinds we use had quite a bit of experimenting before they were put on the market.
On the Ford "60" we retard the cam 3 degrees for the midget engine. This is about the extent of moving the lobes. This is a 333 Boothauser grind.

One cam a team of 4 of us designed was for the Allison unlimited boat engine. It was wet tested extensively for flow on a fixture made from a head. It was also tested for mechanical stability in a fixture made from half an engine and driven by a variable speed electric motor.
We watched the fixture running with a strobe-o-tach which was the equivalent of stop action video of the day. Valve to piston interference was a problem with the high dome pistons we had.
We left the actual testing of the engines to the various boat teams.
After the Allison success, we did the Rolls Merlin and Griffon cams also. Most of the winning teams ran our cams in the late 50's and early 60's.

One thing about cam design back in those days was, there were no computers to do the repetitive work. It all had to be done with slide rules, tape calculators and in our case, limited access to the Boeing analog computer. Digital was yet to come.

There were no CNC machines so master cams had to be generated on a mill with a long list of lift figures.

The bottom line is, some gain can be had for certain applications by moving the lobes in relation to the crank and each other but cost will have to be weighed against the gain.

[Lawrie]

Pete, I worked on a hydroplane here(Agressor) that had a merlin engine ,it was a cool thing to work on, I drove it on the local dam and it was fast, way faster than I felt comfortable, In my youth I had, and still have lots of books and speed records specially the cambells.so I was thinking of them when I drove the hydro.
But that V12 was as noisy as ,you sat right behind it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Fof0CIen0
Lawrie

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Pete, I worked on a hydroplane here(Agressor) that had a merlin engine ,it was a cool thing to work on, I drove it on the local dam and it was fast, way faster than I felt comfortable, In my youth I had, and still have lots of books and speed records specially the cambells.so I was thinking of them when I drove the hydro.
But that V12 was as noisy as ,you sat right behind it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Fof0CIen0
Lawrie

The noise level on our test fixture when it was running at 5300 crank rpm was 115 db. I never knew an engine with no exhaust noise could be so loud.

I never had a ride in an unlimited. After seeing one blow over, I lost interest.
I rode in a 100 mph ski boat once though. Big phun.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by Pete

To answer your first question ...

Great stuff Pete!

[vilanar]

Very interesting reading.... Thank you all !

[Bored&Stroked]

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Hey Pete . . . am out here in South Dakota at the ranch, working away on some 3D supercharger designs (good fun). Anyway was wondering what your perspective is on the narrow LSAs on all the Harley KR racing flatheads?

I've seen them down in the 90's on quite a few of their most successful grinds. My thinking was that it was done as a part of the huge amount of overlap that they used (BIG duration at .050) and the fact that they ran in a narrow high-rpm power-band. Have you ever looked into these roller cam designs?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Pete . . . am out here in South Dakota at the ranch, working away on some 3D supercharger designs (good fun). Anyway was wondering what your perspective is on the narrow LSAs on all the Harley KR racing flatheads?

I've seen them down in the 90's on quite a few of their most successful grinds. My thinking was that it was done as a part of the huge amount of overlap that they used (BIG duration at .050) and the fact that they ran in a narrow high-rpm power-band. Have you ever looked into these roller cam designs?

I read about them is all. It amounts to an optimum design for a special purpose in one engine.
In the 60's, Isky did some research with Chrysler cams using lobe separations in the 90's. He advertised them as "5 cycle". This principle was discovered many moons ago and known as the "Milan cooling 5th stroke".

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

I have a question for Pete, JWL, Ronnie Roadster or any one else, that might have tried designing their own cams and actually racing them.

How much have you guys experimented with LSA (lobe separation angle) or ICL (intake center line)?

We all know that the 111 LSA has been a standard for the V8 since the beginning of time and varies little for street or race cams. Mostly 110 - 113 are the max deviation. But, how many have advanced (or retarded) the ICL and if so, how much and what was the result?

Advancing the ICL, all other things equal, will always increase the DCR (dynamic compression ratio). That is the actual CR the engine has, after the intake valve closes.

Usually advancing the ICL increases the average torque of the engine but, reduces max HP, by a little but, in drag and circle track, it will lower ET & lap times.

My experimentation has been with the ICL I wont go into great detail but I will give one example of results when the locations of the test runs are dramatically different. Running our race car at sea level {1mile} with the cam at 112 ICL resulted in our flathead engine finally running 200 MPH. This same ICL at elevations over 4000 but with a longer distance {3 miles} to accelerate fell flat on its face.
The learning curve has been an interesting adventure the possibility's are limited overall as Pete has written. Its a difficult task difficult changing the ICL with a bolt on gear. Many days I have thought long and hard about designing an adjustable timing cam gear.
When I set a cam in a flathead I'm building be it for my own use of for an engine I build for someone. The cam position is extremely important however we all know almost every one just takes the cam out of the box and installs it as ground. The instructions included with every after market cam tells us to check the cam timing. One recent example I found was a new Isky cam not a regrind that checked out at 119 ICL . Isky's timing specs showed 111. When I was finished installing the cam it was at the 111 ICL
Ronnieroadster

[Fortunateson]

Sorry to be so thick headed...I do know this cam science is not rocket science, it’s way more complicated!

So cam Gurus for a ‘32 5 W with a 255 ci Merc engine with a .030 overbore, Eddie Meyer heads, Fenton intake with either 2 or 3 carbs 97s or 94s, ‘39 Trans, 3.98 (?) rear end, which of the following would be the best carb for fun and drive ability not racing?

Stock Merc, stock EAB, or the apparently despised Max1?

Thanks in advance...

[frnkeore]

Thank you for that, Ronnie. Was the LSA 111°, making it 1° retarded?

[frnkeore]

As light as your car is, I think the Max1, would give you a very noticeable power increase and very little low end lose, over the 8CM cam.

The over lap is 20° (8CM) and 27° (Max1). In your car, I wouldn't be afraid to go up to Pete's 1007B

[21stud]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

I have a question for Pete, JWL, Ronnie Roadster or any one else, that might have tried designing their own cams and actually racing them.

How much have you guys experimented with LSA (lobe separation angle) or ICL (intake center line)?

We all know that the 111 LSA has been a standard for the V8 since the beginning of time and varies little for street or race cams. Mostly 110 - 113 are the max deviation. But, how many have advanced (or retarded) the ICL and if so, how much and what was the result?

Advancing the ICL, all other things equal, will always increase the DCR (dynamic compression ratio). That is the actual CR the engine has, after the intake valve closes.

Usually advancing the ICL increases the average torque of the engine but, reduces max HP, by a little but, in drag and circle track, it will lower ET & lap times.

Generally speaking advancing cam will move powerband to lower rpms and retarding will move it up. ICL is good way to measure timing.

When talking about our ford flatheads, results are well covered in JWL:s excellent book.

LSA changes will give a lot more options but can't be done easily.
have to grind a new cam.. is it worth it? if you got time and money, why not?
might have to do a few of them...

todays car engines got these: varible valve timing in/ex and valve lifts controlled by ECU. good low end and high power when needed. but we all want to do it with our flatheads

Cam designers have decided specs for cam and application it is intended. this is printed to cam card. but is it optimal to your engine and your mix of parts? heads, bore, stroke, comp ratio, exhaust, carbs, ports, chamber shape?

So all talk about best cam is just a talk. but it is interesting

[21stud]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Hey Pete . . . am out here in South Dakota at the ranch, working away on some 3D supercharger designs (good fun). Anyway was wondering what your perspective is on the narrow LSAs on all the Harley KR racing flatheads?

I've seen them down in the 90's on quite a few of their most successful grinds. My thinking was that it was done as a part of the huge amount of overlap that they used (BIG duration at .050) and the fact that they ran in a narrow high-rpm power-band. Have you ever looked into these roller cam designs?

Dale,
Harley KR cams are sure different than any other flathead cams. roller desing as it is with harleys. yes, very narrow LSA and huge duration.
I believe it worked only with that all out racing, cam started to pull after 4500rpm? heres a pic of one intake cam I have.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by frnkeore

Thank you for that, Ronnie. Was the LSA 111°, making it 1° retarded?

Yes in effect I tried it retarded. Now as we know this cam stuff is challenging so I chose to go with the guidance of the cam grinder I was using at the time. After that poor performing experience I have since worked on the ICL experimenting on my own. Our results show there's certainly potential advancing the cam. Now we run over 200 at sea level and at higher elevations with 292 cubes and burning gasoline.
Heck I have also advanced stock cams for certain applications so far the results are favorable. I don't mind the many extra hours it takes to move the cam since I know its worth the effort.
Ronnieroadster

[Bored&Stroked]

I'm with Ronnie on the fact that it is worth the time to first of all degree any CAM - to find out how close the timing events are to the timing card. This is true on ANY engine.

I've seen many aftermarket flathead cams that when installed where quite a ways OFF from the timing tag. Usually this is a result of being ground incorrectly.

In some cases I am able to set the initial advance/retard by redrilling the cam gear on my mill, in other cases the dang cams are way off from the spec. By this I mean the actual timing events and/or LSAs do not match the specified grind. In this case, you cannot 'FIX' the problem with the cam gear - as the cam was ground incorrectly or the masters were off . . . or both. If I see a new cam that is way off in this fashion - I send it back or tell the customer of the situation (no reason for me to have to screw with it as I can't solve the problem).