English 180A de luxe pheaton in "The Restorer"

[john charlton]

I can see the pheaton has been "Americanised" so it has lost some of its English built features . Cowl lamps were not legal in UK as they did not mark the end of the vehicle . Fender lamps had to be fitted by law . Sadly the car has been changed by some one thinking that as it is a 180 A it surely must have cowl lights . I would love to look at the car to see if the fender lamp holes have been welded shut and filled .USA service men could bring a car into the UK and take one out when their tour of duty was over . It did not need to be the same car they brought in so many MGs, Model A Fords and sundry other"collector" cars . So please anyone visiting Hickory Corners check out the car to see what has escaped being changed to USA spec. Thes details will also indicate if you have what was once an English car .
Starting from the front and working to the back .

On the backside of the bumpers is stamped "WB" along the length at intervals also bumper irons and clamp backs are stamped . "WB" stands for "Willmot Breedon" an English sub contractor .
The rad shell has a stainless front hood rod clip .
The rad shell badge for 28/29 stayed the same style for 30 mid 31 it kept the reveal around the edge . These were made in England by the Frachini copany in Birmingham (ENG not AL)this enamelling company is still in business today .
The headlamps had no script as they were not "twolite" as only single bulb reflectors as the vehicles had fender lamps . Late 31 headlamps had stainless buttons over the rivet heads also the hemispherical "ball" at the mount was stainless also door latch stalk and "T" bar and little spring all stainless .Only the threaded stalk was mild steel .we knew about rust in England !!!
The carb was made by "Kayce" similar to the Zenith and had a smaller dia. venturi for the 3" inch bore AF engine .
Junction boxes and distributor caps etc etc. dark red/brown not black .
Round speedos made by "Cooper Stewart" and marked "Made in England" on the backside . Some late round speedos have the manufacturers mark on the dial .
Body rivets are not "waffle" but plain round finished .
Tailights had "Ford" not "Stop" in the lens .
There are many more differences, some bodies came in "Body in white" with no upholstery English interiors were different from USA with a lot of leather used especially in Briggs fordor bodies .
This pheaton would not have had a Briggs data plate on the cowl and the rivet holes would not have been drilled to take the plate . A oil can carrier would have been bolted to the cowl on the left side this to carry a round one pint oil can with threaded cap .

Hope this is of some interest ,I will try to get my son "Juggler" to post some English specific pictures .

John in windy ex "Maria" Suffolk County England .

[foxfire42]

Wow, this forum never ceases to amaze me at the knowledge of it's members. I think it would be quite an undertaking to research and prove all the differences for a variance request to enter blue ribbon judging.

[john charlton]

10 de luxe pheatons built in England in 1930 and 7 in 1931 .The Hickory Corners car is the only known survivor of the 17 built, a rare bird indeed .

John in same place same weather .

[Chippy Minton]

An interesting post. Thank you.

[juke joint johnny]

I'm surprised they sold that many in the UK in 30-31.
Ford was having a hard time in the UK with car production then,
and this would have been one of the most expensive body styles.
Does this one still have the small bore European engine in it?

[Penthode]

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I do not know what a "Pheaton" is. Do you mean "Phaeton"?

[johnbuckley]

Dear Penthode welcome to the forum! but really I geuess since it's an English vecihle we should spell Peahton slightly differently in fact and actlauuly spell it "Touring Car" which is what it was this side ..a pedant speaks....
Great info John, I assume that KayCee provided carbs for big both and small bore. Were they part of Qualcast do you know as some identical carbs have come with that stamped on them too.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by Penthode

I do not know what a "Pheaton" is. Do you mean "Phaeton"?

Nope "tourer". Queen's English ...

http://www.nostalgiastore.co.uk/file...A%20Tourer.jpg

[JDupuis]

Updraught; great advertisement. I don't see the roadster listed?
Interesting.
Thanks for posting. Jeff

[john charlton]

Hi John

Yes the "Qualcast" carb is the same as the "Kayce" . After Qualcast took over Kayce I am not sure if they only supplied service parts to English Ford or maybe factory fitted to late 31 production . I do have a very late Manchester 1931 indented cowl tudor which had a Qualcast carb . The only difference between 24 HP and 14.9 HP carbs are the jets and the smaller dia. venturi . I will see if I can get a picture up of the venturi difference. I do have a 1928 tourer ( Pheaton !!!) with the 14.9 HP AF engine and it was fitted with a "Kayce" with correct jets and venturi but ran like cr*p . Out of curiosity I fitted a $5 swap meet USA Tillotson and it runs like a champ. Maybe higher octane modern gas does the trick .One of lifes mysteries !!!

John in dull spitting rain where is Mr Sunshine Suffolk County England .

Got to thinking I guess that English tourer would have started life with an AF engine ,I bet now long gone ,I hope they changed the 4.55 rear end !!! . A check of the frame/title serial number and if starting with "AF" it would have been a small bore .

[Juggler]

Here you go Dad

[johnbuckley]

For the 14.9hp carb taken from the Bert Thomas manual (which he photocopied from service manuals!) ....the 14.9venturi was 18mm dia ,idle jet 11, ( though I think a 9 or10 might be better),main16 comp 17, cap 16 which I calculate give a flow rate of approx 38-40, 95-100, 110-125 95-100 ml/min respectively. I have a couple of venturis for the 14.9 if you ever need them though I must add that we put a standard venturi in a 14.9 once and it ran beautifully!
Odd isn't it that Kaycees/Qualcasts had that extra casting sprue at the front of the bowl. No other foundry seemed to need that!

[johnbuckley]

Is this the phaeton we had all the emails flying about over the summer?
If so the Road Test in Old Motor Dec 1964 gave its cc as 3285 but I think Old Motor just scooped the data from The Motor data of 1929. However in the Old Motor article it does state that during the cars life the pistons and rings had been changed but never been rebored., and they claimed to have got 60 mph 3- up

[john charlton]

Yes that is the car,I would really love to see it and have a good look .Some museums have a no touch policy and the cars are guarded by silk ropes . At the Den Hartogh museum in Holland I snuck under a cabriolet and did not get caught so worth a try !!!

John in same place same weather .

[elklake]

Here is a short list of some of the differences on the right hand drive car vs. a standard one. We used this list as a poster in the Model A Museum display of the car.

Randy
MAFFI Trustee

Differences.jpg

[Synchro909]

Does the head from one of those small English motors fit the block of the larger motor? If so, what would the compression ratio be??
Do you smell what I'm cooking here?

[Juggler]

Yes it does. My mate Phil has just done it. We checked the compression and got 125 across the board. Estimate around 7.2:1

I've got one to go on an English B motor which will have BF flywheel and cam, SU carb or carbs, and E93A distributor for an all English 'factory' hot motor

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Yes it does. My mate Phil has just done it. We checked the compression and got 125 across the board. Estimate around 7.2:1

I've got one to go on an English B motor which will have BF flywheel and cam, SU carb or carbs, and E93A distributor for an all English 'factory' hot motor

When you next see him, you can drop one of those heads off at Sammy's place for me!!!

[Juggler]

You'll have to wrestle Sammy for it

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Juggler

You'll have to wrestle Sammy for it

Yeh, probably would. Maybe send it direct.