Cosidering juice brakes

[gayle marlowe]

Now that I have the 38 sedan running pretty good, I find that the brakes leave a lot to be desired. Am thinking of converting with the kit from Early Ford. I realize that I will have to change drums and probably hubs, which puts me into 15" wheels and tires.
You guys with the 15" on your rides: What sizes are you using and are you using bias or radials? Do the radials make much difference in the ride quality?
Did you also convert to modern shocks?
Is there any market out there for all the stuff that will be coming off the car? Everything is new or like new.
Trying to find out what most have done without going thru the trial and error bit that always makes for a higher cost and extra parts stored in the garage.
Thanks

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by gayle marlowe

Now that I have the 38 sedan running pretty good, I find that the brakes leave a lot to be desired. Am thinking of converting with the kit from Early Ford. I realize that I will have to change drums and probably hubs, which puts me into 15" wheels and tires.
You guys with the 15" on your rides: What sizes are you using and are you using bias or radials? Do the radials make much difference in the ride quality?
Did you also convert to modern shocks?
Is there any market out there for all the stuff that will be coming off the car? Everything is new or like new.
Trying to find out what most have done without going thru the trial and error bit that always makes for a higher cost and extra parts stored in the garage.
Thanks

Hey Gayle....Don't be too quick to grab that phone and order parts just YET! Who is this "Early Ford" that you're considering dealing with? And just WHAT does this "KIT" consist of?

There is no reason that you should have to change to 15" wheels/tires that I can think of. In fact, there are ways that you can even keep your existing DRUMS and WHEELS/Tires if they're serviceable, and you like the 'look'. Let's discuss this some more before you possibly get lead down a 'not-so-good' path. There are good answers for what it sounds like you want to do. More details?

And welcome to The 'Barn! DD

[gayle marlowe]

V8: I talked briefly to "Early Ford Store" in Ca. They say they have a bolt in kit for my 38 that uses all bolt in parts including prebent lines etc. I explained that I was a bit elderly and inquired if I could install this myself. He assured me it was easily done, even for a mostly worn out codger like me.
I kinda like the look of the "big & little" wheels and tires I have seen. I think they are steel smoothies? Mine seems to ride pretty rough, but may just be me comparing it to our modern cars.
My wheels and hub caps are like new. Tires were new 12 years ago with now about 1000 miles. They do feel like they are out of balance tho.
I do like the current stock look "artillery wheels"? But I think I like the smoothie, bit & little look better.
Trying to decide. Decisions, decisions?????

[bmwillia]

If you are talking about Dennis and Richard Lacy's kit then I can assure you it is top notch!

I installed the kit with the prefabbed lines on my 33 coupe and it looks like it came like that from the factory. Its not cheap but quality never is.

Brad

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by gayle marlowe

Trying to decide. Decisions, decisions?????

Gayle ....I sent you a PM! DD

[alanwoodieman]

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why not go with the floating kit from flathead ted. I have been impressed with them and have put them on 34/36/29/28 cars and several pick up[ trucks. work great and go on fairly easily

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by gayle marlowe

Now that I have the 38 sedan running pretty good, I find that the brakes leave a lot to be desired. Am thinking of converting with the kit from Early Ford. I realize that I will have to change drums and probably hubs, which puts me into 15" wheels and tires.
You guys with the 15" on your rides: What sizes are you using and are you using bias or radials? Do the radials make much difference in the ride quality?
Did you also convert to modern shocks?
Is there any market out there for all the stuff that will be coming off the car? Everything is new or like new.
Trying to find out what most have done without going thru the trial and error bit that always makes for a higher cost and extra parts stored in the garage.
Thanks

Hi Gayle,
I just finished converting my 36 pickup to hydraulics, couldn't be happier.
Twice the brakes with half the foot pressure. I used the Lincoln backing plates by Boling Bros/ MT products, they fit great and are well made.
I used 37-41 round back spindles and 37 wide five drums on the front.
Being that yours is a 38 you have already got the round back spindles and correct drums. I used a 39 pedal assembly and bent my own lines, I took my time and they look like factory.
Richard Lacey is a great guy but I wanted to do my own. As far as being elderly I'm 83 it just takes a little longer. Do it, you won't regret it


Bill

[tubman]

If you have a pretty nice '38, my opinion would be that it is almost imperative that you keep the "wide-5" wheels. Luckily the existing drums will work fine with the later brake assembly, so if your drums are good, you are way ahead of the game. I have always had good results with the original later ford Lockheed brake, so in my opinion, the expense and extra effort of going to the later Bendix brakes is unnecessary, unless you really want to go that way

That being said, I have always heard he the later cable-actuated mechanical brakes were superior to the earlier versions with brake rods, so perhaps you may want to give them a second chance after some tweaking.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

If you have a pretty nice '38, my opinion would be that it is almost imperative that you keep the "wide-5" wheels.

That being said, I have always heard he the later cable-actuated mechanical brakes were superior to the earlier versions with brake rods, so perhaps you may want to give them a second chance after some tweaking.

I'd say that Gayle's '38 qualifies as a "pretty nice '38"! And who can forget that beautiful shop that he parks it in?

As far as cable brakes being superior, I have a stock '37 coupe with cable brakes. Those cables stretch over time, and the cables can even begin to 'bind' in the jackets. Henry changed to hydraulics for a reason in '39. DD

[tubman]

"The safety of steel, from pedal to wheel".

[tubman]

Thanks for posing that picture; if that were my car, I would do everything I could to NOT change it to hydraulics.

[cas3]

Nice lookin car. I too would would be tempted to leave it as is. I like the wide five look, but if you prefer to change to smoothie wheels keep in mind your old wide 5 drums are not being reproduced, so valuable if not worn out. for the best brakes you would open you're wallet wide and get the new Lincoln style (self energizing ) brakes from Boling bros.

[JM 35 Sedan]

That's a very nice looking '38 tudor sedan. I'd suggest getting those original cable brakes working good and leave it original.

[Tinker]

If it's not broke don't fix it. Looks like you don't have a rusted out car, that was most likely well maintained. Adjust the brakes and drive it for a bit. Mechanical brakes never fail and are fairly decent. My 38 truck had mechanical, then to hydraulics as I was told. The mechanical would lock them up. Parking/emergency brakes up to the 70s were cable driven.


You could probably gain more from arching your shoes to the drum.

[Tinker]

If you are hell bent to do it. I used Lacy's kit lines and an original 39 pedal assemble. Lacy lines were very very nice... spiral rock guards, blocks, e-brake setup, all fit perfect and didn't need to chase anything down. That was 10yrs ago though sure it's the same now. You will have to drill a few holes and open up a little bit of the cross member. Templates for mounting are available, just ask.


Now you just have to rebuild or find the best hydraulic cylinders.

[50droptop]

Originally Posted by bmwillia

If you are talking about Dennis and Richard Lacy's kit then I can assure you it is top notch!

I installed the kit with the prefabbed lines on my 33 coupe and it looks like it came like that from the factory. Its not cheap but quality never is.

Brad

I second this! Used their kit on my ‘36 and it fit perfect, looks factory and works like a charm.

[Jack E/NJ]

If it were mine, I'd instead consider FlatHeadTed's floater kit to convert the wide-five lockheed-style mechanicals to bendix-style self-energizing mechanicals.

[Bill OH]

I have posted in Ford Barn many times regarding the setup and adjustment of mechanical brakes. I have used them on three 38 Fords with success. Lub (Lubriplate) the cable conduits and the linkage and you will be able to slide the wheels. And you are not faced with a master cylinder or wheel cylinder leaking or giving way!!! One cable can break and you still have three brakes plus the emergency operates all 4 wheels.

[GaryU.]

I'm very happy with the mechanical brakes on my '38 after adjusting them using instructions from the owners manual of the same vintage. It was one of the items that I thought of as something that if it's working leave it alone.

[mfirth]

Sweet car. I have a friend with a 38 Phaeton & mech. brakes. Mild flatty which runs GR8. That car STOPS VERY WELL !!! Think twice....Tubman has it right with "the safety of steel from pedal to wheel". He ain't no dummy .

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I'd suggest getting those original cable brakes working good and leave it original.

JM 35 is a good one for knowing how these systems were built to work and how to make them work again.

I speculate fixing what you have is less headache than switching.

Vendors here on the 'Barn will be able to help with real ford parts.

[Rodrelic]

All I can think of is the western NY weather and salted roads, parking brake was the common obstacle to inspection. I cannot imagine cable brakes working well back in the day, even without salt.
I have acquired the cable brake parts but never considered trying them even for a good weather car. That said every year my brakes hydraulic brakes are tight and have to work at making them loose in the spring before use. Exercise makes it all smooth out.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Rodrelic

All I can think of is the western NY weather and salted roads, parking brake was the common obstacle to inspection. I cannot imagine cable brakes working well back in the day, even without salt.
I have acquired the cable brake parts but never considered trying them even for a good weather car. That said every year my brakes hydraulic brakes are tight and have to work at making them loose in the spring before use. Exercise makes it all smooth out.

I'm guessing 99% of us are not getting up at 6:30am in January to warm up a flathead to go to work. Even no matter the climate.


Seems like just a naysayer post without experience. Exercise makes it all smooth out I guess..... Salt rusts everything.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I'm guessing 99% of us are not getting up at 6:30am in January to warm up a flathead to go to work. Even no matter the climate.


Seems like just a naysayer post without experience. Exercise makes it all smooth out I guess..... Salt rusts everything.

What's your experience with cable brake Fords? My first V8 was a 37 Ford coupe with cable brakes. Rear cables were rusted solid. My Dad, a mechanic all his life wouldn't let me drive it until I put Hydraulics on it. That was my first Hydraulic brake conversion at 14 years old working in my dads shop.
I've done a lot of them since and now 69 years later I just finished converting my 36 pickup, Works great.
Bill

[Tinker]

Like I mentioned my 38 before and after.

Ran a little model A with mechanical rods. Ran great. Everyone has a different experience, do what you need.


But like I mentioned it looks like a well maintained car. Maybe it's not all rusted to sh!t.

[Will D]

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I've got a '38 fordor with stock cable brakes. They work great, never had any issues. Adjust them right and your good to go or stop.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

What's your experience with cable brake Fords? My first V8 was a 37 Ford coupe with cable brakes. Rear cables were rusted solid. My Dad, a mechanic all his life wouldn't let me drive it until I put Hydraulics on it. That was my first Hydraulic brake conversion at 14 years old working in my dads shop.
I've done a lot of them since and now 69 years later I just finished converting my 36 pickup, Works great.
Bill

Well, it sounds like your only cable brake experience was a shrug of your shoulders as you removed them to obey your father. Many of us have known both mechanical and juice brakes, and do speak with experience. Mine has been a positive experience with cables, but with numerous memories of juice brake failures.

[Tinker]

Yikes. I respect all opinions. All good. To each their own. I try to follow threads throughout, not just the last thing posted.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Well, it sounds like your only cable brake experience was a shrug of your shoulders as you removed them to obey your father. Many of us have known both mechanical and juice brakes, and do speak with experience. Mine has been a positive experience with cables, but with numerous memories of juice brake failures.

I have been a mechanic and worked in shops and Ford dealers since I was 14 years old.That's about 69 years experience. I have a lot of experience freeing up and changing frozen brake cables. Why do you think ford only used them for two years?
And where did you get your experience?
Bill

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

I have been a mechanic and worked in shops and Ford dealers since I was 14 years old.That's about 69 years experience. I have a lot of experience freeing up and changing frozen brake cables. Why do you think ford only used them for two years?
And where did you get your experience?
Bill

Bill, ford used mechanical brakes longer then 2 years. Everything before 1939. Cable 32 up.


Bless you. I hope you have a nice day tomorrow.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Bill, ford used mechanical brakes longer then 2 years. Everything before 1939. Cable 32 up.


Bless you. I hope you have a nice day tomorrow.

Tinker, I said cable brakes 37 & 38,

Rods through 36, cable 37 &38, hydraulic 39 & up.

Same to you Tinker.
Bill

[Tinker]

All good. But it would be hard to say every well running car "had" to convert because. We should just put radial tires, disc brakes, and a sbc in too.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Tinker

All good. But it would be hard to say every well running car "had" to convert because. We should just put radial tires, disc brakes, and a sbc in too.

You're right, Every body is entitled to their opinion, It's their car they can do what they want. If they ask for advice you should give it to them and not have to be put down for it.

Bill

[Tinker]

Sounds good. What is the point of it all in restoring a vehicle if every time we just upgrade it to the newer thing. Opinion or option. Have a good night Bill. I respect your opinion.




.

[ford38v8]

Strong opinions on the subject, which is very understandable as there are as many horror stories as there are success stories on both cable and juice. Old Henry was forced to give in and go hydraulic to stay competitive in the marketplace, but had he not refused to pay license fees for the Bendix system, he might have been able to prove the advantages of cables. The floaters for '37-'38 cables do just that, blending the Bendix with the cables, the best of both systems.

Every system needs maintenance, and fortunately for us today, there are superior lubrication products available that prevent cables from freezing up almost indefinitely. As for hydraulics, moisture attracted to the juice means rust and leaks, so the cure for that is usually silicone fluid, so with more research than heresay, a guy can make his own informed decision.

[Fred A]

In 1964 my dad was out of town working. A perfect opportunity for me to buy a '40 coupe without my dad's supervision. Upon my dad's return, he inspected the acquisition and instructed me to park it until I could get some Lincoln/Bendix brakes all around. Luckily '41 Lincolns were still abundant in the junk yards. Not an absolute bolt on, but after some minor fitting to the '40 front spindles and some custom parking brake cables and some smaller rear wheel cylinders, I had the best brakes available at that time. I have not had the problems with rust and other exaggerations blamed on hydraulic brakes. Those tales have a core of truth but are presented as a scare story to make a point. I have owned a '38 and the cable brakes were not obviously poor but compared to the performance of the Bendix designs, they are a great novelty. It reminds me of driving a crash-box Model A and enjoying the challenge of a smooth shift. I might enjoy the novelty of the cable brakes. In the brutality of LA traffic, that novelty would wear thin very quickly. My current '40 project has been fitted with real Bendix brakes largely as nostalgia. Ford/Lockheed brakes are probably OK but I can afford my preferences. Have Fun: Fred A

[Ford Freak]

Originally Posted by Tinker

All good. But it would be hard to say every well running car "had" to convert because. We should just put radial tires, disc brakes, and a sbc in too.

Well, I have radial tires on my coupe, and I don't have a problem w/disc brakes on vintage Ford's. But, the sbc is where I draw the line. That is a mortal sin! lol
That will never happen to any of my Ford's-not as long as I own them!- F F

[blucar]

When I purchased my '36 coupe in 1952 from the original owner the odometer showed 51k and it was dead stock. The original owner had purchased a new '52 Ford and had intentions of selling the '36 to a junk yard, mainly because of the mechanical brakes.
Think about this: All American vehicles built from 1940 on have hydraulic brakes. Is this because someone in the government owned stock in the hydraulic brake company's or was it for safety reasons?
In my case, I told the owner of the '36 that I would convert the brakes on the '36 to hydraulic using a '41 as the supply for parts, he sold me the '36 for $125.
I lived in Idaho at the time, traffic was light and the car stopped very well. In 1956 I moved to Los Angeles, CA, the '36 was my daily transportation to and from work, which on some days required a commute of over a hundred miles. In 1962 I did some major work on the '36, one of which was converting the brakes to '42-48 with '39 drums and the stock wheels. The later model brakes were a big improvement over the '39-41 style.
In reality, the original Ford mechanical brakes did a good job, however, that was 'then' when traffic was light and 45 mph was the normal highway speed.
Traffic now almost travels at the speed of light, residential speeds are very commonly 40 mph or higher, traffic conditions can change in the wink of an eye. I changed the brakes and suspension on my '39 convertible coupe to disk and rack-pinion, during the nine years I have had the car operational I have had two occasions when I had to do a panic stop because of some jerk flying through traffic on a residential street. My modern brakes and suspension help me avoid a major accident.

[36coupe]

I have the original mechanic brakes on my 38. I’m told that mechanical brakes need to have the softer woven brake shoes material to work best. The shoes look like new when I got the car six years ago

[VeryTangled]

Mech brakes never puke or need bleeding or seals/fluid replaced. Let it sit 20 years and that's still true.

[Graeme / New Zealand]

The UK Ford V8 Pilot had the "best of both worlds" hydraulic front, mechanical rear. why they did this....go figure?

GB