The Ford Barn

Incognito-A · 10-30-2021, 08:44 PM

Let’s have it out in a new thread so as not too high jack other topics.

Please bring facts to this discussion.

Posting Copyrighted material in a manner which disseminates such material for free or otherwise without compensation to or permission from the holder of the Copyright is a violation of the Copyright holders legal rights.

There is a difference between Copyrighted material and material in the “Public Domain.”

GRutter · 10-30-2021, 09:57 PM

In the US, material remains protected by Copyright Law until 70 yrs past the authors death, at which time it moves to the public domain.

Regardless, there are allowances in Copyright law for "Fair Use".

I would always purchase a book if it were still available in print.

However, related to our hobby, much of the published material is 'technical', out of print, and its reproduction causes no harm to the present or future market value of the original work. In most cases, it would be impossible to get "permission" from the copyright holder.

I am not a copyright lawyer but as long as you were not reproducing a work for commercial profit, the publication is no longer in print, the copyright holder is either not indicated or not available, and with the sole purpose of education and with no impact on the current or future commercial value of the work, you would be covered by fair use.. otherwise the knowledge conveyed in the original would 'die' because it could not be conveyed.

"copied" from the US Government Copyright Office, here are the considerations of Fair Use:

Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances.

Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use.

Section 107 calls for consideration of the following four factors in evaluating a question of fair use:

Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes: Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more likely to find that nonprofit educational and noncommercial uses are fair. This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair; instead, courts will balance the purpose and character of the use against the other factors below.

Additionally, “transformative” uses are more likely to be considered fair. Transformative uses are those that add something new, with a further purpose or different character, and do not substitute for the original use of the work.

Nature of the copyrighted work: This factor analyzes the degree to which the work that was used relates to copyright’s purpose of encouraging creative expression. Thus, using a more creative or imaginative work (such as a novel, movie, or song) is less likely to support a claim of a fair use than using a factual work (such as a technical article or news item). In addition, use of an unpublished work is less likely to be considered fair.

Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: Under this factor, courts look at both the quantity and quality of the copyrighted material that was used. If the use includes a large portion of the copyrighted work, fair use is less likely to be found; if the use employs only a small amount of copyrighted material, fair use is more likely.

That said, some courts have found use of an entire work to be fair under certain circumstances. And in other contexts, using even a small amount of a copyrighted work was determined not to be fair because the selection was an important part—or the “heart”—of the work.

Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work: Here, courts review whether, and to what extent, the unlicensed use harms the existing or future market for the copyright owner’s original work.

In assessing this factor, courts consider whether the use is hurting the current market for the original work (for example, by displacing sales of the original) and/or whether the use could cause substantial harm if it were to become widespread.

Incognito-A · 10-30-2021, 10:54 PM

Well said GRutter.

Certainly the Restoration Guidlines & Judging Standards as well as the Paint and Finish Guide [U]are[U]current publications of MARC/MAFCA, MARC, or MAFCA respectively and are produced for commercial profit or at least on a cost basis as the clubs are non-profit.

My original and continuing point has always been the amount of effort (thousands of man hours) and money (thousands if not tens of thousands) to produce and distribute these works by the clubs and individual members. Posting the info here for all to use for free may or may not be technically legal. However it certainly takes away from the clubs. Spend the $50 new or $20 used to buy a copy of the book that you need and you will have ALL the information to hand.

These items are readily available new or used almost everywhere.

Some of the best money spent in this hobby are the two mentioned works.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-31-2021, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognito-A

Well said GRutter.

Certainly the Restoration Guidlines & Judging Standards as well as the Paint and Finish Guide [U]are[U]current publications of MARC/MAFCA, MARC, or MAFCA respectively and are produced for commercial profit or at least on a cost basis as the clubs are non-profit.

My original and continuing point has always been the amount of effort (thousands of man hours) and money (thousands if not tens of thousands) to produce and distribute these works by the clubs and individual members. Posting the info here for all to use for free may or may not be technically legal. However it certainly takes away from the clubs. Spend the $50 new or $20 used to buy a copy of the book that you need and you will have ALL the information to hand.

The social media Model-A sites are the worst for someone taking a picture of material and posting it for others to read. Social media participants are the worst for not wanting to purchase club literature. They claim it wasn’t the author’s material to begin with, it was Ford’s.

Crankster · 10-31-2021, 08:16 AM

The "gray area" can also occur when someone takes the time to re-publish public domain material under their own format or medium, say on a CD. Then somebody copies that and posts it. They may get a "cease and desist" nastygram, not for publishing public domain material per se, but for copying the CD reprint. See the difference?

Me neither, but that's how it works.

trulyvintage · 10-31-2021, 09:56 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If you find something doing a “ Google Search “
then it is in the Public Realm and available
for general information use.

Just copy the link and paste it to redirect
folks to the information.

Jim

Incognito-A · 10-31-2021, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The social media Model-A sites are the worst for someone taking a picture of material and posting it for others to read. Social media participants are the worst for not wanting to purchase club literature. They claim it wasn’t the author’s material to begin with, it was Ford’s.

Thanks Brent, I thought I was going to be alone on this side of the issue. I’m glad a well respected member of this forum -you- agrees with me. Apparently the moderator of this forum also agrees because reported posts and threads have been removed.

I will admit I have been tempted to post pictures of material from the RG&JS to help someone. It’s way too easy to do. Unfortunately if everyone did this then no one would buy the books, the clubs would stop producing them, and everyone would lose out.

There are some interesting avenues to explore here…such as with period Ford ads. Were they copyrighted originally, maybe. Has that copyright expired? Probably. Would they fall under public domain? Most certainly. If you have an original ad by all means share it with the world. However I would not take a picture from the currently published book on Model A advertisements. The same goes for the Ford Model A Service Bulletins. Original item, post away. Dan Post reprint, nope.

Let’s all keep the CURRENT publications sacrosanct!

McMimmcs · 10-31-2021, 03:44 PM

Is the subject matter not the responsibility of the site administrator rather than individual members ? The individual members are not and should not be expected to be copyright policemen. JMO Wayne

PotvinV8 · 10-31-2021, 04:25 PM

I think it depends on how the information is disseminated. An article scanned and posted without reprint permission on a public forum (or any website not granted permission) is likely in violation of copyright laws. Posting a link to said story on the copyright owner's website is probably the most legit way to pass along said info.

I see my published work popping up on all kinds of websites, blogs, etc. Here are two examples:

https://muckrack.com/ryan-manson/articles

https://automotiveamerican.com/2021/...pdowncomp-com/

Neither of these sites have my permission to repost my copywritten content, but since they are basically aggregating and passing along the reader to the proper websites (as opposed to posting the entire story outright), they get a pass.

"If you find something doing a “ Google Search “
then it is in the Public Realm and available
for general information use."

This is factually incorrect. Many websites have copyright info posted on their website, mine included. Just because you found something via google images doesn't mean you now have the rights to reproduce said image as you'd like. For the same reason that you can watch and record a baseball game on TV but if you were to replay it in your bar, etc. you'd be in violation of MLB's copyright. You had permission to view it, but not rebroadcast it.

And don't get me started on the social media sites that post photos stolen off the internet to pass along as their own. These sites are the bane of the existence of any content creator that actually puts in the work. But if they at least credit the original photographer, writer, etc. they also usually get a pass.

28 · 10-31-2021, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trulyvintage

If you find something doing a “ Google Search “
then it is in the Public Realm and available
for general information use.

Just copy the link and paste it to redirect
folks to the information.

Jim

Agreed, we are the current curators of this information and in thirty years what will our community look like?

If it is something that is causing someone to loose money currently, then bring it up directly with them. I am sure that most people have only upstanding intentions with our community.

Most of our information that we are throwing around is to help one another out and I'd say most of us already have purchase most materials or the things that a particular club puts out has most likely been done many times by others and is in not copyrighted.

Are we really wanting to take our information to the grave with us?

updraught · 10-31-2021, 08:10 PM

You can usually copy a small amount for "educational purposes'.
Facebook has been sucking up all our news outlets material for years and has just recently been forced to pay for it while kicking and screaming.

1931 flamingo · 11-01-2021, 08:29 AM

I really don't think the Copyright Police are watching this site.

Paul in CT

denis4x4 · 11-01-2021, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I really don't think the Copyright Police are watching this site.

Paul in CT

You might be surprised! I got a letter from the Federal Trade Commission asking me to document some horse power claims in an ad for headers. Turns out that the guy from the FTC was reading his kid's HOT ROD MAGAZINE on the crapper.

You just never know.

McMimmcs · 11-01-2021, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I really don't think the Copyright Police are watching this site.

Paul in CT

I couldn’t agree more Paul ! We’re not exactly a significant source of illegal activity. Wayne

Oldbluoval · 11-01-2021, 03:08 PM

I’ll tell you the super sleuths….
Getty Images
Be sure you know what the source of an image is…particularly if you might add it to your website

PotvinV8 · 11-01-2021, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

I really don't think the Copyright Police are watching this site.

Paul in CT

They don't need to. A quick search with known SEO words will turn up an image's use in google images and direct them to whatever website is illegally using them. The two examples I provided above were gathered exactly like that. It's not foolproof, but shows you don't need to watch any site at all.

10-30-2021, 08:44 PM	#1
Incognito-A Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Left Coast Posts: 211	Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! Let’s have it out in a new thread so as not too high jack other topics. Please bring facts to this discussion. Posting Copyrighted material in a manner which disseminates such material for free or otherwise without compensation to or permission from the holder of the Copyright is a violation of the Copyright holders legal rights. There is a difference between Copyrighted material and material in the “Public Domain.”

10-30-2021, 09:57 PM	#2
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! In the US, material remains protected by Copyright Law until 70 yrs past the authors death, at which time it moves to the public domain. Regardless, there are allowances in Copyright law for "Fair Use". I would always purchase a book if it were still available in print. However, related to our hobby, much of the published material is 'technical', out of print, and its reproduction causes no harm to the present or future market value of the original work. In most cases, it would be impossible to get "permission" from the copyright holder. I am not a copyright lawyer but as long as you were not reproducing a work for commercial profit, the publication is no longer in print, the copyright holder is either not indicated or not available, and with the sole purpose of education and with no impact on the current or future commercial value of the work, you would be covered by fair use.. otherwise the knowledge conveyed in the original would 'die' because it could not be conveyed. "copied" from the US Government Copyright Office, here are the considerations of Fair Use: Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use. Section 107 calls for consideration of the following four factors in evaluating a question of fair use: Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes: Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more likely to find that nonprofit educational and noncommercial uses are fair. This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair; instead, courts will balance the purpose and character of the use against the other factors below. Additionally, “transformative” uses are more likely to be considered fair. Transformative uses are those that add something new, with a further purpose or different character, and do not substitute for the original use of the work. Nature of the copyrighted work: This factor analyzes the degree to which the work that was used relates to copyright’s purpose of encouraging creative expression. Thus, using a more creative or imaginative work (such as a novel, movie, or song) is less likely to support a claim of a fair use than using a factual work (such as a technical article or news item). In addition, use of an unpublished work is less likely to be considered fair. Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: Under this factor, courts look at both the quantity and quality of the copyrighted material that was used. If the use includes a large portion of the copyrighted work, fair use is less likely to be found; if the use employs only a small amount of copyrighted material, fair use is more likely. That said, some courts have found use of an entire work to be fair under certain circumstances. And in other contexts, using even a small amount of a copyrighted work was determined not to be fair because the selection was an important part—or the “heart”—of the work. Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work: Here, courts review whether, and to what extent, the unlicensed use harms the existing or future market for the copyright owner’s original work. In assessing this factor, courts consider whether the use is hurting the current market for the original work (for example, by displacing sales of the original) and/or whether the use could cause substantial harm if it were to become widespread.

10-30-2021, 10:54 PM	#3
Incognito-A Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Left Coast Posts: 211	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! Well said GRutter. Certainly the Restoration Guidlines & Judging Standards as well as the Paint and Finish Guide [U]are[U]current publications of MARC/MAFCA, MARC, or MAFCA respectively and are produced for commercial profit or at least on a cost basis as the clubs are non-profit. My original and continuing point has always been the amount of effort (thousands of man hours) and money (thousands if not tens of thousands) to produce and distribute these works by the clubs and individual members. Posting the info here for all to use for free may or may not be technically legal. However it certainly takes away from the clubs. Spend the $50 new or $20 used to buy a copy of the book that you need and you will have ALL the information to hand. These items are readily available new or used almost everywhere. Some of the best money spent in this hobby are the two mentioned works. Last edited by Incognito-A; 10-30-2021 at 11:00 PM.

10-31-2021, 08:16 AM	#5
Crankster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 563	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! The "gray area" can also occur when someone takes the time to re-publish public domain material under their own format or medium, say on a CD. Then somebody copies that and posts it. They may get a "cease and desist" nastygram, not for publishing public domain material per se, but for copying the CD reprint. See the difference? Me neither, but that's how it works.

10-31-2021, 09:56 AM	#6
trulyvintage Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Direct Enclosed Transport Since 2006 Posts: 4,160	Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If you find something doing a “ Google Search “ then it is in the Public Realm and available for general information use. Just copy the link and paste it to redirect folks to the information. Jim __________________ Click Here To See Where I Am Today What My Actual Customers Say Click Here Click Here To See Vehicles I Have Hauled

10-31-2021, 03:44 PM	#8
McMimmcs Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan Posts: 2,296	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! Is the subject matter not the responsibility of the site administrator rather than individual members ? The individual members are not and should not be expected to be copyright policemen. JMO Wayne

10-31-2021, 04:25 PM	#9
PotvinV8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 114	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! I think it depends on how the information is disseminated. An article scanned and posted without reprint permission on a public forum (or any website not granted permission) is likely in violation of copyright laws. Posting a link to said story on the copyright owner's website is probably the most legit way to pass along said info. I see my published work popping up on all kinds of websites, blogs, etc. Here are two examples: https://muckrack.com/ryan-manson/articles https://automotiveamerican.com/2021/...pdowncomp-com/ Neither of these sites have my permission to repost my copywritten content, but since they are basically aggregating and passing along the reader to the proper websites (as opposed to posting the entire story outright), they get a pass. "If you find something doing a “ Google Search “ then it is in the Public Realm and available for general information use." This is factually incorrect. Many websites have copyright info posted on their website, mine included. Just because you found something via google images doesn't mean you now have the rights to reproduce said image as you'd like. For the same reason that you can watch and record a baseball game on TV but if you were to replay it in your bar, etc. you'd be in violation of MLB's copyright. You had permission to view it, but not rebroadcast it. And don't get me started on the social media sites that post photos stolen off the internet to pass along as their own. These sites are the bane of the existence of any content creator that actually puts in the work. But if they at least credit the original photographer, writer, etc. they also usually get a pass.

10-31-2021, 08:10 PM	#11
updraught Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 1,969	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! You can usually copy a small amount for "educational purposes'. Facebook has been sucking up all our news outlets material for years and has just recently been forced to pay for it while kicking and screaming.

11-01-2021, 08:29 AM	#12
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! I really don't think the Copyright Police are watching this site. Paul in CT

11-01-2021, 03:08 PM	#15
Oldbluoval Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Signal Mtn, TN (SE TN) Posts: 2,370	Re: Posting Copyrighted Material ?!?!?! I’ll tell you the super sleuths…. Getty Images Be sure you know what the source of an image is…particularly if you might add it to your website