Wheel Washers

[Dirtrack49]

My somewhat new to me "Restored" 1930 Town Sedan has been a multitude of mechanical problems since I purchased it in August of 2019.

Getting ever closer to the light at the end of the tunnel, I am currently inspecting wheels, bearings and rear end components.
The car came with conical wheel washers. Having read positive and negative threads concerning these add on items, I decided to remove the wheels for inspection. I found that all wheels are in good condition with no deformity to the lug holes. However, on the right rear wheel, the DPO used multiple washers evidently as spacers. Upon closer examination, I find that the studs are longer on the right rear versus the left. The only thing I can think of is that someone replaced the studs using what should have been installed on a cast iron drum? The stud measures 1 inch from the drum on the right, vs. 11/16 on the left.

So, I ask, is this safe to run like this?

Thanks for any and all help.

Tom L.

[tinkirk]

If what is sticking out is all threads, i think i would cut them off to the right length and do away with all the washers
Terry


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[Synchro909]

What tinkirk says but I'd still use one washer on each stud.

[Bob Johnson]

The washers are generally used on wheels where the hole for the lug nut is "wollered" out. With the wheel off the car put a lug nut into a hole. If it extends through the hole any amount you should use the washers.
Bob

[Gene F]

A collector car restored with problems. We have all been there and done that! Don't feel ashamed Dirttrack.

[Dirtrack49]

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All wheels are in very good condition. No wollering out.
This car was cosmetically restored pretty well. Unfortunately for me at least, whoever did the mechanicals, should never had been allowed to reach for a wrench.

Gene, I am not ashamed so much as pissed off at a guy who is as old as I, who evidently never found a way to do things right. Let alone hold back information that he might have known at the time of purchase.

If I cut the long studs down to normal size, what would be the best method to go about it?

Now, a new problem arises. The axle nuts are loose. I have put 1500 plus miles on this thing and I have been driving around with a split pin basically holding the wheel on! The drums want to come off when I pull on them, however they won't go all the way. Maybe brake drums hanging up or key way? Any thoughts?

[Bob Johnson]

Try an Axle shim

[GRutter]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

Now, a new problem arises. The axle nuts are loose. I have put 1500 plus miles on this thing and I have been driving around with a split pin basically holding the wheel on! The drums want to come off when I pull on them, however they won't go all the way. Maybe brake drums hanging up or key way? Any thoughts?

In my opinion, it's time to pull the drums and do a thorough inspection of drums, hubs, wheel studs, bearings, brakes, axle taper, key and keyway, axle nut etc.

You are already aware that mechanically you have some issues there. Don't repeat the mistakes of the prior owner. Randy Gross can supply you with cast iron drums and whatever brake components you may need.

If indeed you are still running the original steel drums, they likely are worn out. The hub has the wrong studs... why not replace drums, hubs, and studs properly swaged.

If the drum was running "loose" on the axle taper, you may have other issues such as a worn out keyway, bad key, bearings, and seals.

I believe it is very premature, if not unsafe, to suggest fixing this by merely shortening the studs to remove the washers.

[Cape Codder]

As to the long studs I would cut them to the same length that the other drums have installed. FIRST I would install a nut (I don't know is the lug nut would be to high) but a nut of the same thread. Then cut them off with a cut off tool. Try to take the burr off that the cut off wheel will leave, than remove the nut. Threads should be good.

[Synchro909]

Even if the stud holes are not flogged out, I'd use the washers. They are cheap insurance.

[Oldbluoval]

Not to the question as I think it’s been adequately covered

I’d be curious if the replaced studs are done correctly. I’d likely pull the drum and look at the back side.

If they were inept enough to put wrong studs I’d bet money they weren’t swedged properly
Likely future problem???

[Rob Doe]

I re-torque my lug nuts every 2 - 300 hundred miles, or whenever I'm going to be out running at higher speeds for a significant length of time. I've waited too long in the past and lost a lug nut and nearly a couple more. (64 foot pounds)

Beware guys. Forewarned is forearmed??? LOL

I use the washers to protect my purty yaller wheels.

[Stingray70]

One other thing to check regarding those washers is the lug nuts themselves. My car came with washers. The wheels were good. I found that all of the lug nuts were the bad reproduction ones without the proper relief cut at the end. They would bottom out on the stud before tightening the wheel correctly. So make sure the nuts are correct before removing the washers! There have been a couple of recent threads on this posted here.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

This car was cosmetically restored pretty well. Unfortunately for me at least, whoever did the mechanicals, should never had been allowed to reach for a wrench.

Many of us who purchase "restored" vehicles have found this to be the case. My pickup was restored in the late '70's by a body-and-fender guy. Looks great, but I've spent the last two years sorting out various mechanical and electrical issues he snarfed up either by omission or commission. (And I'm finding some body issues that could have been done differently...) But it keeps life interesting. All in all, messed up as the truck may be, I hope my mechanicals are doing as well when I'm 91 years old.

JayJay

[katy]

Originally Posted by GRutter

In my opinion, it's time to pull the drums and do a thorough inspection of drums, hubs, wheel studs, bearings, brakes, axle taper, key and keyway, axle nut etc.

Ditto

[Dirtrack49]

Grutter, katy, that is what I will be doing this afternoon. I agree, since just about everything I have found on this vehicle has been botched, I need to look further into each item before coming to any quick and simple solutions. If I get lucky, those quick fixes will become a reality.
So far my good news is that the wheels are in good shape. All holes checked good using a lug nut. Also, all nuts are of the correct type with the proper relief.
Thanks to everyone for your help so far. I will report back as to what I find.

[Benson]

I deleted Previous post because:



1. My reply was based on the fact that the studs were Swedged correctly and just too long.

Since they are not swedged correctly my reply is of no value.

[GRutter]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

Grutter, katy, that is what I will be doing this afternoon.

Good to hear, and please report back. If nothing else, you will have peace of mind knowing what you have, and what you need to do mechanically to restore to safe operating condition.

[Dirtrack49]

Pulled the drums last night. The one with the long studs may be welded. Not sure, welded or swedged. There is some type of maybe epoxy over the heads. See picture below. The left side is swedged.
The axle ends are galled. The axle nuts go down pretty far and I may not be able to catch the split pin on the nut without a shim. Also, on the right side, they used a axle washer that was oversized, which allowed it to sit on the outside of the hub instead of sitting on the recess as the other side does.
So, I need to order some parts. Shims, axle washers, axle fiber washers, new keys, etc.
I really don't want to pull these axles if I can safely bring these axle nuts up tight.
What I will do with the long studs is either find another drum, cut the studs to normal size, or go back to the spacers.
Any thoughts as to how I should proceed?

[Keith True]

Your studs are not swedged in.Also,it looks like somebody used serrated studs out of a modern car.They are much too long .There should be nothing but the conical swedge and threads showing.If you cut the studs down so the lug stays tight you will be able to tighten it up,but it will come back to bite you.At some point you will try to take a lug nut off and the whole thing will spin.

[jg61hawk]

Doesn't the taper of the lug nut going into the wheel hold the wheel from moving on the studs...I'm sure it does. Putting washers on the stud seems to me to be extremely dangerous...like putting lug nuts on in reverse...the taper is there for a real important reason...

[mhsprecher]

Originally Posted by jg61hawk

Doesn't the taper of the lug nut going into the wheel hold the wheel from moving on the studs...I'm sure it does. Putting washers on the stud seems to me to be extremely dangerous...like putting lug nuts on in reverse...the taper is there for a real important reason...

If the washers are the ones supplied by the parts vendors, the washers are tapered, too, so they fit the lug nuts and wheels securely.

[mercman from oz]

Wheel Stud Washers on Model A Ford Wheel.

[Dirtrack49]

Keith, below are pictures of my left side. Are the studs swedged on it?

Mercman, thank you for the nice picture enlargements, do you see something else I might be missing?

It is obvious that the right side with the incorrect studs needs to go. What would be the best thing to do? Replace the studs with the correct ones? Buy a new drum and hub with the studs already installed? Look for something on the used market? I also noticed that the two rear drums are somewhat different. Should that create a problem?

Sorry for rambling on. I also need to decide if I should shim the axles, or just add another washer to make the split pin line up properly with the axle nut.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Tom L.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Benson

deleted

well stated

[GRutter]

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Tom -

You might get lucky and find a good steel drum to replace the one that I agree "has to go", but it is doubtful. Most used drums would be too thin to turn. Turning steel drums is tough, and you would be lucky to find a shop with the proper mandrel to do it.

The vendors sell cast iron replacements. I previously suggested Randy Gross as a source. I would not replace just one drum in cast iron with the other in steel.

In my previous post, I mentioned that if the drums were running loose, that the axle tapers, keyways etc could be messed up. I think that's what you are seeing. I think that with some blue dye and patience, you could clean up the axle taper to get a good fit on the hub.

As the axle taper is reworked, you may find that the drum now hits the backing plate. That's the only reason I would ever use axle shims - it will move the hub back away from the backing plate.

The threads on the end of the axle also look stripped. If you don't have good nut engagement on the axle threads, you will never be able to torque the axle nuts properly. Be certain to use new HARDENED axle nuts. If necessary, the axle threads can be repaired by essentially replacing the original 5/8-16 nuts with 9/16-16 (and a slight reduction of torque with the new nuts) after filing down the original threads. There is a very good youtube video showing this being done on the car, and I've done it on my own vehicle. Its a safe fix that should last until a rear-end rebuild is needed.

I'm sure you will also want to look at the condition of the service brakes, rollers, tracks, and emergency brake while you have it all apart.

GRutter

[Keith True]

I just caught something you wrote earlier.You said one side had the axle washer on the outside of the hub instead of the recess.
Well,it is supposed to press on the outside.If it fits down in the recess it will be pushing on the fiber washer,and that will never stay tight.Fiber washer sits down in the recess,and the hardened steel washer stays up on the outside.

[jerrytocci]

Buy two rear drums with studs installed and turned . A wheel coming off while driving is a danger and costly.

[katy]

Originally Posted by jerrytocci

Buy two rear drums with studs installed and turned . A wheel coming off while driving is a danger and costly.

I agree. Also, make sure the washers are hardened ones. I bought "hardened" washers from one of the reputable vendors and they were soft, and deformed when tightening the axle nut. I ended up going to the local, friendly "Cat" dealer to get proper hardened washers.

[Dirtrack49]

Thanks everyone for your input and guidance.

My plan of attack:
1. Attempt to clean up what I have and see if I can maintain the proper torque on the axle nuts. The DPO evidently only finger tightened them after replacing the brakes.
2. If the hubs won't hold to the taper, I will try a shim. If the nut is the problem, I will try the removal of the axle threads and go to the next thread down.
3. If either one of the above works out, I will be looking to replace both rear drums and hubs with cast iron drums.
4. If none of the above comes about, I will take the axles and carrier out from the left side of the car and replace both axles, drums and hubs.

I have four questions. Are the new axles that the vendors sell any good? Should I look for used axles? Randy Gross for new cast iron drums and new hubs, or can I find anything on the used market?

Thanks again,

Tom L.

[Synchro909]

Dirttrack 49, I am jumping ahead a bit here but when you come to reassemble the hub onto the axle, make sure both the axle and inside of the hub are spotlessly clean of any trace of oil or grease. I use either brake cleaner or wax and grease remover (the same stuff used before painting) till I get no trace on a clean rag. I don't even touch the surfaces again.
This is hardly ever mentioned, even in manuals but it is vital if you want the hub to stay put..

[Dirtrack49]

Synchro909, Thanks for the heads up. And all of your input over the past few years.

Now I am thinking I better go back and take another look at my 26 Touring. Had the rears off not long ago checking out the parking brake lining.

Love the avatar. I have a Bull Terrier that looks very similar. Exception being, he prefers rabbits, gophers and squirrels.

Tom L.

[Oldbluoval]

As Keith says……
Then the only option is to cut lug nuts off from wheel-side… quite a chore.

[Dirtrack49]

This is a follow up as to what I have found and repaired so far.

Luckily, the bashed up axle ends with questionable threads, after cleaning them up, were able to take the 90 ft. lbs. when tightening the axle nuts.

I added two axle shims to each axle. Probably could have gotten by with one on both.

Since I only had the screwed up right side drum, I put it back on until I can find another. Most likely, I will just buy some new cast iron drums for both sides from Randy Gross.

Will put some miles on it and see if everything stays put.

As always, thanks for everyone's input and suggestions.

Tom L.

[katy]

Be sure and check the axle nut torque after the first few miles and then again and again, to ensure that it stays tight.
I hope you made sure the axle, the shims, and the hub (where the axle fits) were absolutely oil/grease free.
FWIW, 1 thick shim would be better that 2 thin ones.

[Dirtrack49]

Thanks katy,

Yes, cleaned everything up before assembly.

Will be checking the torque value often.

Probably could have gone with only one shim per side. May end up doing that anyway as we see how things go.

Wondering how one can tell if they have a steel versus cast iron drum? I have two different looking drums on the rear. Are both of them steel? The one on the picture to the left is different than all the others in appearance.

Tom L.

[Ruth]

First picture, definitely steel drum. Second I suspect is steel also. Need to see more of drum.

[katy]

Cast iron drum is a lot thicker than a steel one.

[Dirtrack49]

Thanks Ruth and katy.
Below is a picture of the inside if that can help identify.
The one that is swedged is the first one in the picture above. The second one has welded studs. If there both steel, I will need to replace them all. Fronts also look like steel.