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Old 08-31-2020, 01:37 PM   #1
Werner
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Default Tighten the 21" rims straight

N'Abend Maenners!

My car is a bit restless around 50 mph, the steering wheel trembles.

I can't have the wheels balanced because I can't find a workshop that has an old machine for static balancing (dynamic is not possible because the rim is too narrow).

But I also have some wheels lateral runout. I know that I can fix this by bending the spokes. But I've never done that.

Unfortunately, I can't find an explanatory post in this forum; my search query is probably misspelled.
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Old 08-31-2020, 01:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

http://www.durableperformance.net/Do...2.4.09.web.pdf
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Old 08-31-2020, 02:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

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Old 08-31-2020, 03:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Werner, you straighten the runout of the wheel by selectively shrinking specific spokes to pull the rim in that direction. You shrink the spoke by heating it with a torch flame. It will ruin the paint, so best to do it before you paint them.

You can static balance the wheel+tyre with stick-on weights that are commonly used on fancy sports car wheels.

You can dynamic balance 1930-31 wheels and tyres, with the hubcap off and an adapter, because they have a larger diameter hubcap. I think the opening is too small on the 1928-29 wheels to do this. (If anyone has done it, please post pictures.)

In addition to the wheel having a wobble, I have seen tyres molded with a side-to-side movement. Best to move them to be spares and put 4 straight running wheels and tyres on the ground.

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Old 08-31-2020, 03:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

The problem with a lot of Model A wheels is they are junk. People had a tendency to hit curbs and other things with them back then, bending spokes, the rim, and the hub. I have wxperimented with bending spokes to bring them back but I have had no luck. It is like an old timer told me, "don't buy the wheels with a lot of bent spokes."
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

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I don't have a solution for but what i did is put the worst wheel for the spare, the two straightest on the front and then installed dyna-beads in all five tires. Seen to help.
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

What're "Dyna-Beads", tell me please?
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Dyna beads go inside the tire and find their own balance. They will not correct for run out though.

Bent spokes can be straitened a number of ways but it generally takes a solid mounted hub to work a wheel in a press for best run out. during the process of straightening a person can bend a spoke pretty easy but as mentioned before, the stretch has to be relieved by shrinking with a torch.

A bent rim is another story. They are much more difficult to straighten. There were tools to do such work back in the spoke wheel era.

Here is an example: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/wheelstraightener.htm

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Old 08-31-2020, 05:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Talked to an engineer friend about shrinking spokes to straighten wheels. He's not much of a fan of putting uneven heat on wheels. He assured me that it will work, but feels it is not the best solution. He rather straighten them cold and is concerned that heating and quenching will make the metal brittle, which was also my concern. His thought was more along the line of heating the entire wheel and let it cool slowly, like in powder coating and use the best wheels on the front. Any other thoughts along those lines?
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

The stretched spoke will tend to push the rim off straight so I see no other way to do it. A person can be surprised how much shrinking can be done without getting carried away with the quench. A compressed air nozzle will cool it from a dark cherry color without getting it wet. Heating it too much and quenching too fast would be more stressful for the steel.

The best solution is a new wheel but some wheels don't need much work and will be plenty strong for a light weight and slow model A.
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Has anyone used the adjustable spoke wheels form Coker? https://www.cokertire.com/ford-model...-%20Med-%20All
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Old 08-31-2020, 06:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
What're "Dyna-Beads", tell me please?
They are ceramic beads you install in your tubes to balance your tires. I installed 4oz in all my tires and seem to work good.

As stated above they will not cure run out. That is why I put my 'best' wheels on the front.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Werner, It seems you are asking about two different things at the same time. runout of the wheel is one thing, balance is another.
I don't worry too much about a little runout. Once I have straightened any bent spokes (which I do cold), I've never had to do more. For balancing the wheel, I made a stand with a free wheeling front hub mounted on it. When a wheel is put on it, the heavy spot goes to the bottom. I use stick on weights to balance it till I can put the wheel at any orientation on the stand and it will not turn. Before I made the stand, I lifted one front wheel off the ground, backed off the brake so it turned freely and used that. I've been to 70 mph (non standard car) with wheel done like that with no problem.

FWIW, For the first few wheels I balanced this way, I used my own weights. I took a piece of angle iron about half a metre long and welded a plate on each end so they acted as a stand as well to hold the angle iron so that it formed a Vee like trough. I melted the lead out of an old battery, pre heated the iron channel and poured the molten lead into it. Once it was cool, I measured its length and weighed it. I went through the same process as above to balance the wheel but I used old balance weights taped to the top spoke. Once I had things good enough, I added up the weights I had used and it is a simple calculation for work out where to cut the stick of lead. I then wrapped the lead around the same spoke as I had he other weights on and painted it the same colour as the wheel. Stick on weights are less hassle and simpler to use.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
What're "Dyna-Beads", tell me please?
Hi from Orangeville IL. Werner if you can open this link it may help to better understand "Dyna-Beads"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=dyna+b...ANNTA1&PC=U531
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Old 08-31-2020, 10:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Werner I installed a Warford overdrive in my AA truck this past winter. With the increase in speed I had some balance issues I never had before because I couldn't go fast enough for an out of balance wheel to be a problem. I added Dynabeads to each wheel and it made a big difference. Very happy with them.
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Old 08-31-2020, 10:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
What're "Dyna-Beads", tell me please?
Copied this from the Snyders Model A Parts catalog, thought it may be helpful
Attached Files
File Type: pdf WHEEL BALANCING BEADS.pdf (267.9 KB, 43 views)
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Old 09-01-2020, 03:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Guten Abend and many thanks to everyone for the many answers and tips!

Right, two problems are written in one post, that's not perfect. Let me try.

Curved spoked wheel: Centering the wheels is apparently not easy. Shortening the spokes is easy. Stretching with a glowtorch is tricky. I will first try cold bending the spokes.

Cure the imbalance with magic pearls: It reads like a fairy tale that is too beautiful. I can't understand how this is supposed to work physically. But I don't want to doubt those writers who have had success here either, that would be impolite. Therefore I'll try to understand this super-pearl secret.
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Old 09-01-2020, 06:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post

Cure the imbalance with magic pearls: It reads like a fairy tale that is too beautiful. I can't understand how this is supposed to work physically. But I don't want to doubt those writers who have had success here either, that would be impolite. Therefore I'll try to understand this super-pearl secret.
I understand your scepticism on the beads. I can't see how they work either but I have to accept that they do. If they didn't work, there would not be so many manufacturers of balancing beads and we wouldn't be hearing so many accounts of how well they work.
I don't know exactly how this computer works either but I know it does so I use it.
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Old 09-02-2020, 05:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Thanks Synchro [? Name]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I understand your scepticism on the beads. I can't see how they work either but I have to accept that they do. If they didn't work, there would not be so many manufacturers of balancing beads and we wouldn't be hearing so many accounts of how well they work.
I don't know exactly how this computer works either but I know it does so I use it.
Yes, you are right! That's why I'll now try the miracle pearls myself. I will report on it when I have driven enough.
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Old 09-02-2020, 05:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Tighten the 21" rims straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveymc29 View Post
Talked to an engineer friend about shrinking spokes to straighten wheels. He's not much of a fan of putting uneven heat on wheels. He assured me that it will work, but feels it is not the best solution. He rather straighten them cold and is concerned that heating and quenching will make the metal brittle, which was also my concern. His thought was more along the line of heating the entire wheel and let it cool slowly, like in powder coating and use the best wheels on the front. Any other thoughts along those lines?
Respectfully, your friend needs to study up on metallurgy first. To begin with, the wheel components were made from a low carbon steel so that it could be welded during assembly. The higher the carbon content, the easier to embrittle with heat. Secondly, when straightening spokes or wheel rims, the intent is not to make the spoke 'cherry red'. Instead, it is to heat the spoke enough where steam is generated when water is added to cool it. That is all it takes to shrink a spoke. And thirdly, with metal you only do three things, ...you stretch it, you shrink it, and you bend it. Originally each spoke was put into tension as the spoke weld cooled. The only way the tension is lost is if the contact points are broken, -or if the spoke is stretched (due to trauma). If it is stretched, it will never return to tension unless the metal is shrunk the same amount it was stretched. All cold bending does is rearrange the metal shape. Cold straightened rims will lose their shape if there is not an adequate method of holding the rim into the correct position. The only way to hold that position is to have tension pulling from multiple directions.
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