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Old 09-04-2020, 12:05 AM   #161
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
I am sure he is not disclosing that so the third party will be left alone to do their work.
I guess I wasn’t very clear in the wording of my question. I wasn’t asking for the name of the 3rd party, but where geographically.
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:38 AM   #162
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, can you tell us what type of valve guide the third party used? Are they pressed in or the type that are held in by the valve spring single piece or original 2 piece used with original type valves with mushroom ends?
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Old 09-06-2020, 02:09 AM   #163
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I guess I wasn’t very clear in the wording of my question. I wasn’t asking for the name of the 3rd party, but where geographically. Carl

Geographically, the new engine parts were manufactured in mainland China and transported to Hong Kong. From Hong Kong, the parts were air transported to a port of entry in the USA to pass customs, and from there, they were air transported to an airport near the 3rd party. After arrival at the airport near the 3rd party, the parts were transported by truck to the 3rd party. FedEx took care of all transportation. The parts are in the United States for 3rd party evaluation and we will get to see them on the afternoon of Sept. 8.





Terry, can you tell us what type of valve guide the third party used? Are they pressed in or the type that are held in by the valve spring single piece or original 2 piece used with original type valves with mushroom ends? dennisklisenen


The interfaces on the new cylinder block are identical to original, so any of the original or aftermarket valve guides that don't require cylinder block modifications will work.

The 3rd party made the choice to use the "Modern Valve Kit" from Antique Engine Rebuilding in Skokie, IL. This kit uses press in guides.

The 3rd party has built over 300 engines using these valve guides.

I'm happy that the tolerances on the new cylinder block were compatible for a press fit of the new aftermarket valve guides, and that the valve seats were concentric with the valve guides.

We are only supplying the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods.

Our validation plan allows the 3rd party builder to choose the other parts that he has experience with to complete an engine and deliver a quality product.
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Old 09-07-2020, 04:05 AM   #164
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So glad this block is coming along...

It's late, and I don't feel like looking through all nine pages, so if someone gets iffy for my asking this question if it's been asked already, forgive me-

Is the new block still using three mains for the camshaft, or did they go to a five-main?

Just curious.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:31 PM   #165
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It has 5 journals for the cam and either a 3 or 5 bearing journal cam will work in it.
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:04 PM   #166
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Any updates on this great project?
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:37 AM   #167
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello to All,

27 September 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this email without seeing the full article on the "new" Model A engine, it is available at http://www.modelaengine.com. This website also has all of the previous updates, pictures, and videos.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the email list for updates, please email model.a.engine@hotmail.com. We will add your email address to our mailing list and do our best to address any questions you may have.


New Engine

The term "new engine" is loosely used. The only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to the original Model A engine, and they have been documented from the original Ford drawings.

Since our last update on 15 July 2020, we have been working with the factory to complete and ship the prototype components for evaluation and testing.


Design Verification

The new engine parts and the optional flywheel arrived in the US and were received by the 3rd-party evaluator during the first week of September. John, Terry, and I met there the following week to begin the verification process. Leonard had intended to join us but had an important family obligation.

Over the next ten days, we conducted a detailed inspection of the new parts, evaluated their fitment, and completed a working engine assembly with the new parts combined with stock Model A components. Following assembly, the new motor was run for approximately 15 hours under varying conditions to observe its performance.

As mentioned previously, due to the impacts of COVID, this was our first opportunity to inspect the parts physically. We worked with the evaluator who is experienced with building Model A engines to confirm the new parts' specification, compatibility with existing stock components, complete the engine build, and test run it for several days on both a stand and installed in a Model A. We finished the test run by performing a hill climb of over five miles that included over 1,700 feet of elevation gain.

The evaluator's participation and input were critical, both from the standpoint of ensuring the engine was assembled correctly, but as important, providing an independent assessment and feedback of the internal modifications required to support a 5-main block. They have asked to remain anonymous, but we want to acknowledge their invaluable input and generous support and accommodation during the testing process.

Following is more detail on the testing process and the results. Also included at the end of this update is a link to some of the pictures and video clips that we recorded to provide additional context to the testing process we went through.


Parts and Fitment Inspection

Days 1 and 2 were dedicated to inspecting and measuring the new parts to ensure their design integrity. The focus of developing this engine has always been to integrate the understood advantages of a 5-main design without compromising the exterior appearance of the original design.

Accordingly, our evaluation included carefully assessing the fitment of the modified crankshaft and connecting rods in the modified block, as well as their complete compatibility with the inventory of stock components that includes heads, camshaft, pumps, pans, and supporting housing covers.

In particular, the modified oil galleys were checked to confirm all passages were clear, fully plumbed, and capable of supporting three- and five-bearing camshaft implementations and an external oil filter in the event an owner wants that as an option.

Plastigage was used to confirm proper clearances for all main and connecting rods caps when torqued to spec. Pictures are included of those results.

Valves were seated and connecting rods checked for balance along with other the many other details you would normally associate with a proper engine build.


The Build Process

After inspecting the engine and confirming the fitment of the individual components, we began the build process which required approximately two days. The crank, cam and oil pump were installed first, followed by valves, pistons, seals and the flywheel.

During the assembly, several minor clearance conflicts were identified. However, we were able to readily modify them without negatively impacting the test process or biasing the end results.

For example, there was a slight clearance issue with the cam and the rear of # 4 cam bearing housing. Through grinding, casting material was removed to provide the necessary clearance and documented for the factory. Prior to moving into full production, the tooling will be adjusted to eliminate that issue. A "before and after" picture is included that shows the area of conflict before and after the profile was reduced.

Similarly, several hex bolts that are used to attach the connecting rod caps were lightly contacting one of the sidewalls of the oil pan when rotating. For the purposes of testing, we switched bolts with lower profile heads and further refined them slightly through grinding the shoulders down. Moving into production, the permanent fix will spec these low-profile bolts and deepen the counterbore in the connecting rod cap to effectively countersink the bolt heads further into the cap and eliminate any potential of contact with the oil pan.

Finally, we had a minor issue with balancing the connecting rods. Due to the fact we were evaluating prototype parts at this stage, we logically authorized only a limited number of connecting rods, primarily to confirm fitment. However, this also impacted our ability to group rods of similar weights which is the normal practice when larger quantity of rods are batched produced.

We installed them with no noticeable effect, but with the goal of full disclosure, we wanted to mention it. John also brought it to the attention of the factory and they assured us that when we proceed to full production and manufacturing rods in greater quantities, this issue will self-correct as a result of the ability to more closely group rods of nearly equivalent weights.

Also, given this issue, it is worth mentioning the potentially beneficial impact of the new crankshaft design. As most are aware, the counterweights on the new crankshaft incorporate significantly more mass than the stock design. The shaft diameter and supporting main bearing sizes were also increased by 33%. The goal of these modifications was to both deliver torque and power more smoothly, but also reduce the stress impacts recognized with the original 3-main design and the maintenance requirements extending from them.

The build process was finished by installing the stock engine covers and pans. A 6:1 compression head was used for testing and a stock oil pump. Toward the end of day four, we transferred the engine to a test stand and started it for the first time. Over the next two hours we ran the engine at moderate speeds to confirm the absence of unexpected noises or anything else that would have sensibly caused us to stop the testing process for further investigation. Basic operating conditions like oil and water circulation and temperatures, and timing, were within normal standards of stock Model A engines.

Initially we had installed a stock oil pump and ran 10w-40 oil but following the warmup of the engine observed minimal oil pressure readings on the pump and return gauges. The next day we installed a modified stock pump (increased inlet port and galley), 20w-50 oil and inspected the used oil for any noticeable signs of wear, which we found none. The oil and pump change raised the oil pressure which was recorded regularly while the engine was being run on the test stand.


Run Testing

Following the pump and oil change, the engine was run on the test stand for six hours at 3,100 RPM, roughly the equivalent of 70 to 75 miles per hour in Model A. Temperatures and oil pressures were recorded regularly during this period. Oil pressure at the pump was approximately 8 psi and 5 psi on return. Oil temperature in the sump reached 275 degrees and averaged 263 degrees. Water temperature at the # 4 cylinder reached a high of just over 200 degrees, but on average was approximately 190 degrees while running the engine at this speed.

A link to a brief video of the engine running at 3,100 rpm is included. Please note that the sensitivity of the microphone was reduced in the early part of the recording which might leave the impression that the engine operation was very quiet. Later in the video the external mic was changed, and the actual volume recorded. As could be expected, running at 3,100 RPM’s is quite loud, evidenced by the fact we were all wearing hearing protection.

We would also note that other than running the engine for two hour prior to this phase of testing, there had been no other “break-in” period. Overall, we were pleased with the engine’s operation at this speed and feel confident of its capacity to sustain higher temperatures and stresses associated with running at this speed.

The following day we ran the engine for four hours, but more moderately at 2,100 RPM’s to approximate normal driving conditions. The engine ran smoothly during the entire period. Oil temperatures averaged 180 degrees, the water temperature at cylinder 4 averaged 168 degrees, and oil pressure at the pump and return averaged 4 psi.

Later that day the engine was transferred from the test stand and installed into a vehicle to further evaluate its operation in real-world conditions. Installation was completed late in the day, but we had the opportunity to take it for a brief drive. Impressions were promising. Power delivery was smooth and torque was noticeably available at the lower range of RPM’s.


Hill / Stress Testing

During the final day of testing, the engine was run up a five-mile course with an average grade of about 6.5 percent. Total elevation gain was approximately 1,700 feet. We recorded the climb using both drone and dashcams. A link to the video footage is included.

Other than stopping briefly during the ascent to allow for the drone operator to move to his next line of sight, the engine was run continually and as fast as safely possible given the narrower road and switchback conditions. We did not record average speeds, but regularly observed speeds in excess of 35 miles per hour while climbing with no notable strain on the engine.

Overall, we were satisfied with all aspects of the run testing and feel very confident of the engine’s design integrity and long-term performance.


Next Steps

During the evaluation process we were actively communicating the adjustments needed in the tooling process to the factory to address the fitment issues we identified during the build process. We are already receiving revised drawings and will confirm with them that all of the needed modifications are properly implemented. We expect to complete this work by the end of October, at which time we will authorize production.

The factory is estimating it will take them 90 days to deliver blocks to the US once production is authorized. As a result, we expect to be in a position to deliver blocks to customers around the end of January or early February 2021.

Depending on the distribution of demand, we will warehouse the blocks regionally to minimize the delivery time to end customers and any incremental delivery costs.

During the first 60 days, the block kit, including crankshaft and connecting rods, small parts (cam bearings, thrust washers, oil galley plugs etc.) and a “Builder’s Guide” will be offered to buyers directly at a discounted cost of $3,500. Following the initial offering period cost will be $3,900 and the availability through parts distributors and engine builders.

For those that are interested, we will be following up shortly with pre-order details and delivery details.

In the interim, please contact us with any questions you have.


Bill Percival


Link to picture, video & test data files:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/at89mx8bt...j-WMblVVa?dl=0

Last edited by wrpercival; 09-27-2020 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:05 PM   #168
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Wow! Great work guys! This is awesome news, and thank you for the very detailed reviews, pictures and videos! Even the suspenseful music during the hillclimb portion!

I will be showing this to my customers that are anticipating the arrival of this engine just as I am.

Thank you again!
Theo
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:25 PM   #169
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very nice.

A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -

1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?

2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?

3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.

Thank You
George
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:47 PM   #170
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

CONGRADULATIONS to Terry and all who are involved in this project.

It appears that this was a well thought out project and will allow our hobby to continue with a great new source for quality new improved engine components at an affordable price.

Thanks for all the hard work and also, the video of the test run up the mountain was great.

Chris W.
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:35 AM   #171
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

A great job! Congrats to all involved! What a great way to celebrate your birthday Terry! Fully oil pressurized and no leaks, how about that. A stout bottom end to handle any modifications. Nice hill climb too!
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:23 AM   #172
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Smile Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRutter View Post
Very nice.

A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -

1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?

2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?

3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.

Thank You
George
Good questions. And great to see the progress that has been made during these unpresented times. This project is challenging enough without all this additional issues related to the pandemic...........

I see several types of oil pumps laying on the assembly table, but appears to be stock looking pump (externally) on the one mounted to the motor. According to Terry's posting it says stock pump was used in initial test, so appears oil would be able to pass into valve chamber past the two slots in the upper end of the oil pump. second test had modified pump according to the post with enlarged oil inlet and reduced pump shaft? diameter, and maybe still had the two open slots to allow full passage of oil into valve chamber?

In saying that, I see the opening on the return pipe from the valve chamber has one opening rather then the normal three openings and the single hole is reduced in size from the original. So if they had dipper tray installed it appear maybe expectation for less oil returning from valve chamber and majority of the oil returning through the main and rod bearings directly into the pan and centrifugal force throwing oil onto the piston bores and camshaft lobes?

I would have imagined after the testing they have disassembled and re-inspected major and minor wear surfaces to determine any unusual wear points.

I like the provision for dowel pins on all the main bearing mounting of the caps.

Are the bearing caps steel or Cast iron?

I see that front and centre mains are using bolts and nuts per original design. and appears #2 #4 and rear main bearings are using studs, so minor deviation on the rear main.

I would be curious to know how well the new rear main seal performed during the testing?

This initial flywheel appears to be cast iron, is this correct? and clutch mounting is for 9" clutch? Did the initial flywheel come in close to the anticipated 22 pound weight?

Looking forward to being able to place my order in the near future...
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:35 AM   #173
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very nice.
A few questions - and my apologies if I missed this in the messages -
1. I was surprised that the oil pressure was not higher.. like in the 30psi range. Was the low pressure expected and is there any reason why it isn't higher ?
2. Is the oil pan baffle / dipper tray still part of the pan assembly, or eliminated in the new build?
3. Without the connecting rod dippers creating an oil torrent, how do the cylinder walls get adequate lubrication.
Thank You George





Good questions. And great to see the progress that has been made during these unpresented times. This project is challenging enough without all this additional issues related to the pandemic...........

I see several types of oil pumps laying on the assembly table, but appears to be stock looking pump (externally) on the one mounted to the motor. According to Terry's posting it says stock pump was used in initial test, so appears oil would be able to pass into valve chamber past the two slots in the upper end of the oil pump. second test had modified pump according to the post with enlarged oil inlet and reduced pump shaft? diameter, and maybe still had the two open slots to allow full passage of oil into valve chamber?

In saying that, I see the opening on the return pipe from the valve chamber has one opening rather then the normal three openings and the single hole is reduced in size from the original. So if they had dipper tray installed it appear maybe expectation for less oil returning from valve chamber and majority of the oil returning through the main and rod bearings directly into the pan and centrifugal force throwing oil onto the piston bores and camshaft lobes?

I would have imagined after the testing they have disassembled and re-inspected major and minor wear surfaces to determine any unusual wear points.

I like the provision for dowel pins on all the main bearing mounting of the caps.

Are the bearing caps steel or Cast iron?

I see that front and centre mains are using bolts and nuts per original design. and appears #2 #4 and rear main bearings are using studs, so minor deviation on the rear main.

I would be curious to know how well the new rear main seal performed during the testing?

This initial flywheel appears to be cast iron, is this correct? and clutch mounting is for 9" clutch? Did the initial flywheel come in close to the anticipated 22 pound weight?

Looking forward to being able to place my order in the near future.. 4bangerbob




I was also disappointed with the low oil pressure. We had 3 people verifying tolerances, measuring clearances, and assembling the engine simultaneously. The third party assembly and evaluation time allocation was very short and there were only so many things that we could try.

There was no oil pressure with a stock pump, so we changed to a modified stock oil pump and got minimal oil pressure. We had a Stipe pump on hand, but didn't use it because the outlet would need modification by an outside machine shop for use in a stock appearing engine.

On a stock engine with a drilled crankshaft and modified for oil pressure, there are 7 (3 crankshaft and 4 connecting) bearings that leak oil on both sides for a total of 14 leakage paths. The new engine with 14 pressurized bearings has 28 leakage paths, and the factory in China said that the replaceable cam bearings were slightly oversize.

Based on the above, I made the decision to proceed with minimal oil pressure and all testing was completed.

Yesterday during engine teardown, I discovered a missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew that should have plugged a blind oil passage to the main oil galley. This missing setscrew was not in the oil pan, so it was never installed. The attached picture shows a 5/16 inch drill sticking out of the hole where pressure was lost.

The side return pipe is for decoration only and the dipper tray was in place to minimize oil slosh that would starve the oil pump.

All main caps are malleable iron.

Main bearings 1 and 3 use long studs with castellated nuts to appear original. All other main caps are secured with coarse studs in the cylinder block and fine threads for the nuts.

The rear seal is an off the shelf item made by National and similar to the seal in a rear hub. The seal did not leak.

The flywheel used was a prototype and machined from steel. Weight was 30 pounds without ring gear. 9 inch clutch is correct and production flywheels will be grey cast iron. The 22 pound flywheel had a bell made from 356 aluminum and is expensive to manufacture. The flywheel is not a part of the new engine but will be available separately.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:47 AM   #174
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Here is a picture of the oil passage that had the missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug.
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File Type: jpg Missing Setscrew.jpg (42.9 KB, 149 views)
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:29 PM   #175
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Have you seen the oil pumps made by Turlock Machine? All Small Block Chevy gears in a custom made body that bolts into a Model A. Lots of flow.
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Old 09-29-2020, 01:10 PM   #176
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Wow, I'm impressed that the pump even made the pressure that it did with an open 3/8" port back to tank. I look forward to seeing the oil pressure numbers with that passage blocked off.
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Old 09-29-2020, 01:21 PM   #177
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Here is a picture of the oil passage that had the missing 3/8-16 UNC setscrew plug.
Terry thanks for the information. With missing a 3/8" plug I am surprised as well that you were able to get the pressure that you did.

Another question if I can. If oil return tube from valve chamber is cosmetic, is there a regulated port for oil to come into the valve chamber to lubricate the lifters from above, or are you solely relying on oil being splashed onto the cam and lifters off the crankshaft?
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Old 09-29-2020, 02:06 PM   #178
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I also was surprised to see the low oil pressure.

The 3/8ths plug missing explains why.

We had just the opposite problem.

We built a full pressure, drilled B block in 1976 with oil system mods to oil galley on side cover following Dan Iandola's Rod and Custom article.

Stock B Oil pump was opened up following Dan's directions. Shaft was turned also because we used a Model A shaft.

On first fire up the 3/8 inch thick aluminum side cover blew the gasket and oil dumped out on ground.

After adding a number of 10 32 cap screws between each cover bolt it held the gasket at idle.

Oil pressure was 100+ PSI with engine at above idle. I do not remember the RPM.

The camshaft moved in/out also!

After welding a pressure bypass valve cut from a V8 oil pump to the side of Model A oil pump we got it down to 30 or 35 lbs.

Last edited by Benson; 10-01-2020 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 09-29-2020, 07:31 PM   #179
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

I was also wondering about the oil pressure.

I bet you were glad to find the open oil passage. A modified A Pump should be perfectly capable of providing good oil pressure. I am sure you will need a pressure relief valve of some sort to keep from over pressuring the system when the engine is cold.

Chris W.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:08 PM   #180
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,

I was in Heaven when I found the cause of low oil pressure to be a forgotten setscrew that opened the main oil galley to an 8 mm (5/16 inch) hole.

I have a pressurized Model B engine that I built in 1976, so I have an idea of what oil pressure should be.

We are trying to keep costs to a minimum for buyers and that is why a modified Model A oil pump was the second pump tried.

Modifications to the stock Model A oil pump used includes doubling the area of all oil passages and the addition of a 40 PSI relief valve on the side of the oil pump at a location above the dipper tray.

A picture of the modified pump is shown in post 174. The brass cylindrical object is the relief valve available from McMaster Carr.

Terry Burtz
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