The Ford Barn

Nick Bernier · 10-02-2022, 07:00 PM

Hi All,
Getting all the little things worked out on my '40. The passenger door fits perfectly and latches solid. The driver's door sticks out at the top rear 3/8". The bottom rear is perfectly aligned with the rear quarter. As you can see from the pictures, the gap between the door and rear quarter is very consistent. If there was a way to pull the top of the rear quarter panel out 3/8", that would solve the problem. But I don't know if that's even possible.

Any thoughts on how to correct this?

Thanks in advance,
Nick

deuce_roadster · 10-02-2022, 07:09 PM

Yeah, I do all those adjustments before I paint. I would first measure the distance between the posts at a landmark on each post. Then check that with someone with a convertible. Maybe Kube has this measurement from the open cars he has restored. Before pulling the top of that pillar out I would want to know for sure, it was in too far.
Has there been bodywork or welding on that side of the car, specifically that post?
Good luck on that.

Nick Bernier · 10-02-2022, 07:15 PM

I have no history on this car. I can tell you that the striker plate on the driver's side is bent in slightly, as if the door had been slammed rather hard multiple times. In being bent in slightly, that makes the "hook" part move ever so slightly forward which means it doesn't mesh well with the latch in the door (if that makes sense).
Thanks,
Nick

Ken/Alabama · 10-02-2022, 10:11 PM

Just measured mine. 54 1/2” inside the tops of the post.

Nick Bernier · 10-02-2022, 10:31 PM

Wow. Mine is only 53 3/4" !! The door is only off by 3/8" Not sure how tight the tolerances were back when these cars were made. But a 3/4" difference between mine and Ken's is quite a bit. Not sure what to make of it. Still open for suggestions.
Thanks Ken,
Nick

petehoovie · 10-02-2022, 10:55 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Wow. Mine is only 53 3/4" !! The door is only off by 3/8" Not sure how tight the tolerances were back when these cars were made. But a 3/4" difference between mine and Ken's is quite a bit. Not sure what to make of it. Still open for suggestions.
Thanks Ken,
Nick

Kube · 10-03-2022, 07:59 AM

I have experienced the widths between the B pillars vary quite a bit. While the original poster's width seems a bit excessive, well, what "bothers" me more, is the fact that the left door fits properly.
That scares me. For the owner's sake, I pray the right door was fit properly to the body prior to paint.
How does the door fit at the A pillar?
I would suggest removing all rubber bumpers, including the weatherstrip and the male latch. Then, with nothing that may cause interference, attempt to close the door to the body.

Does it (the door) now fit better?

Nick Bernier · 10-03-2022, 08:18 AM

Kube, it's the right, passenger door, that fits properly. The driver's door also fits well at the A pillar. The door itself is very rigid and there is no slop in the two hinges. There is no weather stripping on either door. Just the rubber bumper on the lower B pillars and the rubber bumpers above and below the latch. I can post additional pics if that would help. I have the bumpers on order.

Also, just received your book: Ford for 40. A great work!!
Nick

Nick Bernier · 10-03-2022, 08:28 AM

One more question: is there a backing plate behind the male latch or is the B pillar tapped for the screws. Don't want to lose a backing plate if it's going to fall when I take the latch out. I also have a new one of those coming too.
Nick

Karl Wescott · 10-03-2022, 09:14 AM

To me, this looks like a body to frame shimming issue, not ruling out underlying frame or body problems.
My experience (with roadsters, in general) is that you have 8 CRITICAL body to frame bolt and shim locations. Front and rear on each side of the cowl, B post and rear on quarter. Each shim affects three axis, front to back, side to side, and front to opposite rear. The corollary to this is that ONE problem is usually at least 3 shims from a solution.
Kube has posted some excellent notes on aligning a convertible before... search them out on this forum. A convertible critical issue is that rubber pads are not used as on the closed cars. They are simply to flexible and will not hold the body in the rigid alignment it needs. Ford used steel pads with a thin rubberized fabric pad. Also consider reviewing our body and fender installation guide, a lot of basic, generic, and critical information http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatal..._Technical.pdf. There will be no easy fix on this car.

glennpm · 10-03-2022, 11:25 AM

I measured 54 1/4" on my forty.

Glenn

Nick Bernier · 10-03-2022, 01:36 PM

Thanks Karl. Not happy to hear that there won't be an easy fix, but not surprised.
Glenn, thanks for the additional data point. Mine is still quite a bit narrower than the other two. I can live with the mis-alignment, but it would certainly bug me every time I see it. Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Nick

Ken/Alabama · 10-03-2022, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

Thanks Karl. Not happy to hear that there won't be an easy fix, but not surprised.
Glenn, thanks for the additional data point. Mine is still quite a bit narrower than the other two. I can live with the mis-alignment, but it would certainly bug me every time I see it. Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Nick

It’s been a very long time since I built my 40 Convertible but I’m just thinking out loud here. If you pull a tape measure from the top center of the driveshaft tunnel up to the top of the right door post then go from that same point to the left door post are they the same ? Or go from the bottom of the left post to the top of the right post then do the same for the other side . It would at least tell you if the left post is leaning inward. Also if you loosened the mounting bolts at the floor of the left post and removed the screws from the horizontal wood seat brace could you pull the post over by hand ? Been a while but I remember having to work with it on mine.

glennpm · 10-03-2022, 02:56 PM

“Go from the bottom of the left post to the top of the right post then do the same for the other side .“

I think that would be a good check. It would be a large dimension so a help in comparing the two. You also have great reference points this way.
I had to change the body to frame shim plate, I think reducing it. Took a while with PB Blaster and pry bars. I like to use roofing bars a lot.

As Kube said, remove everything that could be affecting the door position.

Glenn

Nick Bernier · 10-03-2022, 03:10 PM

From the passenger B pillar base to the top of the driver B pillar is 59 3/4". From the base of the driver pillar to the top of the passenger pillar is 60 1/4". This would indicate that the driver B pillar is tilted inwards about the right amount to cause the door mis-alignment. I have several of the early ford books, but none have an exploded view of what Ken is referring to. I'd like to get an idea of what's involved before I start ripping things apart. Is there any documentation that shows this?

Thanks guys,
Nick

Ken/Alabama · 10-03-2022, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Bernier

From the passenger B pillar base to the top of the driver B pillar is 59 3/4". From the base of the driver pillar to the top of the passenger pillar is 60 1/4". This would indicate that the driver B pillar is tilted inwards about the right amount to cause the door mis-alignment. I have several of the early ford books, but none have an exploded view of what Ken is referring to. I'd like to get an idea of what's involved before I start ripping things apart. Is there any documentation that shows this?

Thanks guys,
Nick

At the bottom of the post where it meets the floor there is a large heavy bracket that the post is attached to. It has bolts though it that goes through the frame. There is also a hardwood board that runs from side to side that gets covered with carpet that the front edge of the seat sits on. Here a picture of mine when I got it that shows this.

Alan O'Connell · 10-03-2022, 07:09 PM

When I worked for Pierce Ford in Lowell, MA in 1966, a new Mustang convertible had a driver's side door out of alignment as yours is. The service manager put a block of wood between the bottom of the door and rocker panel. He pushed hard on the top of the door a few times and was able to twist the door into alignment. Just saying.

Ken/Alabama · 10-03-2022, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O'Connell

When I worked for Pierce Ford in Lowell, MA in 1966, a new Mustang convertible had a driver's side door out of alignment as yours is. The service manager put a block of wood between the bottom of the door and rocker panel. He pushed hard on the top of the door a few times and was able to twist the door into alignment. Just saying.

That can help but I’d be concerned about trying to tweak it that much. I’m thinking that the post needs to be pulled out. Got to keep in mind that the top iron on that side also holds the seal for the door glass .

Alan O'Connell · 10-03-2022, 08:34 PM

That's true, Ken, several things have to be looked at including the B pillar alignment. I know on 35 and 36 convertibles there aren't many ways to adjust the doors. Add or remove shims from the bolts that hold the A and B pillars to the frame. I think in this case maybe move the post a bit twist the door a bit and check for the correct alignment with the top and door glass. If the frame is straight I think, with some patience, this is a fairly easy fix.

Nick Bernier · 10-03-2022, 08:42 PM

Thanks everyone. I'm starting to feel a little better about this. Are you thinking adding a shim to the brackets to move the top of the driver B pillar out might do the trick? I'll pull the back seat out tomorrow to see what that exposes. Or maybe it's all visible from below? I need to put it on jack stands tomorrow anyway to change the drag link.

Might sleep better tonight!!
Thanks,
Nick

10-02-2022, 07:09 PM	#2
deuce_roadster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Shelton, WA Posts: 3,800	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment Yeah, I do all those adjustments before I paint. I would first measure the distance between the posts at a landmark on each post. Then check that with someone with a convertible. Maybe Kube has this measurement from the open cars he has restored. Before pulling the top of that pillar out I would want to know for sure, it was in too far. Has there been bodywork or welding on that side of the car, specifically that post? Good luck on that.

10-02-2022, 07:15 PM	#3
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment I have no history on this car. I can tell you that the striker plate on the driver's side is bent in slightly, as if the door had been slammed rather hard multiple times. In being bent in slightly, that makes the "hook" part move ever so slightly forward which means it doesn't mesh well with the latch in the door (if that makes sense). Thanks, Nick

10-03-2022, 07:59 AM	#7
Kube Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9,007	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment I have experienced the widths between the B pillars vary quite a bit. While the original poster's width seems a bit excessive, well, what "bothers" me more, is the fact that the left door fits properly. That scares me. For the owner's sake, I pray the right door was fit properly to the body prior to paint. How does the door fit at the A pillar? I would suggest removing all rubber bumpers, including the weatherstrip and the male latch. Then, with nothing that may cause interference, attempt to close the door to the body. Does it (the door) now fit better? __________________ "I can explain it for you. However, I can't understand it for you".

10-03-2022, 08:18 AM	#8
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment Kube, it's the right, passenger door, that fits properly. The driver's door also fits well at the A pillar. The door itself is very rigid and there is no slop in the two hinges. There is no weather stripping on either door. Just the rubber bumper on the lower B pillars and the rubber bumpers above and below the latch. I can post additional pics if that would help. I have the bumpers on order. Also, just received your book: Ford for 40. A great work!! Nick

10-03-2022, 08:28 AM	#9
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment One more question: is there a backing plate behind the male latch or is the B pillar tapped for the screws. Don't want to lose a backing plate if it's going to fall when I take the latch out. I also have a new one of those coming too. Nick

10-03-2022, 09:14 AM	#10
Karl Wescott Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,289	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment To me, this looks like a body to frame shimming issue, not ruling out underlying frame or body problems. My experience (with roadsters, in general) is that you have 8 CRITICAL body to frame bolt and shim locations. Front and rear on each side of the cowl, B post and rear on quarter. Each shim affects three axis, front to back, side to side, and front to opposite rear. The corollary to this is that ONE problem is usually at least 3 shims from a solution. Kube has posted some excellent notes on aligning a convertible before... search them out on this forum. A convertible critical issue is that rubber pads are not used as on the closed cars. They are simply to flexible and will not hold the body in the rigid alignment it needs. Ford used steel pads with a thin rubberized fabric pad. Also consider reviewing our body and fender installation guide, a lot of basic, generic, and critical information http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatal..._Technical.pdf. There will be no easy fix on this car.

10-03-2022, 11:25 AM	#11
glennpm Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Wiscasset, Maine Posts: 1,981	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment I measured 54 1/4" on my forty. Glenn

10-03-2022, 01:36 PM	#12
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment Thanks Karl. Not happy to hear that there won't be an easy fix, but not surprised. Glenn, thanks for the additional data point. Mine is still quite a bit narrower than the other two. I can live with the mis-alignment, but it would certainly bug me every time I see it. Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Nick

10-03-2022, 02:56 PM	#14
glennpm Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Wiscasset, Maine Posts: 1,981	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment “Go from the bottom of the left post to the top of the right post then do the same for the other side .“ I think that would be a good check. It would be a large dimension so a help in comparing the two. You also have great reference points this way. I had to change the body to frame shim plate, I think reducing it. Took a while with PB Blaster and pry bars. I like to use roofing bars a lot. As Kube said, remove everything that could be affecting the door position. Glenn Last edited by glennpm; 10-03-2022 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Hard to do on cell phone

10-03-2022, 03:10 PM	#15
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment From the passenger B pillar base to the top of the driver B pillar is 59 3/4". From the base of the driver pillar to the top of the passenger pillar is 60 1/4". This would indicate that the driver B pillar is tilted inwards about the right amount to cause the door mis-alignment. I have several of the early ford books, but none have an exploded view of what Ken is referring to. I'd like to get an idea of what's involved before I start ripping things apart. Is there any documentation that shows this? Thanks guys, Nick

10-03-2022, 07:09 PM	#17
Alan O'Connell Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Peabody, MA Posts: 471	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment When I worked for Pierce Ford in Lowell, MA in 1966, a new Mustang convertible had a driver's side door out of alignment as yours is. The service manager put a block of wood between the bottom of the door and rocker panel. He pushed hard on the top of the door a few times and was able to twist the door into alignment. Just saying.

10-03-2022, 08:34 PM	#19
Alan O'Connell Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Peabody, MA Posts: 471	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment That's true, Ken, several things have to be looked at including the B pillar alignment. I know on 35 and 36 convertibles there aren't many ways to adjust the doors. Add or remove shims from the bolts that hold the A and B pillars to the frame. I think in this case maybe move the post a bit twist the door a bit and check for the correct alignment with the top and door glass. If the frame is straight I think, with some patience, this is a fairly easy fix.

10-03-2022, 08:42 PM	#20
Nick Bernier Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Frisco, TX Posts: 84	Re: 1940 Deluxe Convertible Door Alignment Thanks everyone. I'm starting to feel a little better about this. Are you thinking adding a shim to the brackets to move the top of the driver B pillar out might do the trick? I'll pull the back seat out tomorrow to see what that exposes. Or maybe it's all visible from below? I need to put it on jack stands tomorrow anyway to change the drag link. Might sleep better tonight!! Thanks, Nick