Artificial Information -the new How To Authority???

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I am sure many of you have heard about the phenomenon called Artificial Intelligence (AI) that is projected to soon take-over critical thinking, ...and possibly even common thinking.

So I have been wondering to myself for awhile about where will this information come from as it applies to Model-As. Maybe I am wrong, however it has been my view that mis-information about Model-As is 'beyond rampant' on social media platforms (-such as YouTube and FaceBook for starters) to the point now where I often shake my head in disbelief at some of the advice that is given. Ironically though, in several other special interest groups (Professional Engine Rebuilder group, Auto Shop Owners Group, RV Repair groups, Professional Auto Upholstery groups, Painting groups, et/al) I read the comments where the true (those that have vetted experience) professionals are complaining about the overwhelming amount misinformation that is being written, -or video content that is broadcast on these different platforms that is making life difficult for these professionals trying to educate & correct their customer about their preconceived ideas about something that was garnered because they read/heard/saw something on a social media platform that was false.

So, exactly where do we feel the information about Model-As will be found by AI in the future? Will this information be gathered from social media platforms -or somewhere else? Does the Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards even have a chance in the AI world?? Thoughts???


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[Pete]

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;2237646]I am sure many of you have heard about the phenomenon called Artificial Intelligence (AI) that is projected to soon take-over critical thinking, ...and possibly even common thinking.

So, exactly where do we feel the information about Model-As will be found by AI in the future? Will this information be gathered from social media platforms -or somewhere else? Does the Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards even have a chance in the AI world?? Thoughts???./QUOTE]

The info will come from the same IQ level 50 that are propagating it now.
(such as)

"In the future all model A's will be required to have a 2300 Pinto engine in order to be on public highways."

[jb-ob]

Imagine 10 people driving the same type of vehicle that has the same navigation app. going to the same place. Their route would be the same.

No longer need for over priced universities. The same solutions will come from the same data from the same computers from scientists solving the same problem.

AI can not harness a small boy's ego, ie. bragging rites.

As long as there are uninformed listeners wishing to listen to uninformed story tellers, there will be whoppers.

What hobby has such a large audience of unskilled tinkerers that over rate their skills while disrespecting the geniuses that designed & built these cars in a world and for a world we never experienced.

My $.02, your mileage may & will vary. jb

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

What hobby has such a large audience of unskilled tinkerers that over rate their skills while disrespecting the geniuses that designed & built these cars in a world and for a world we never experienced.

Amen Jim!!

[Jim/GA]

Brent, I went into ChatGPT (a popular Generative AI text website) and asked a simple question:

"How do I adjust the valves on a 1929 Ford Model A engine?"

I got a horrible answer.

They have the option to regenerate the answer, which I chose.

The 2nd answer was worse than the 1st. I did it 3 more times. The answers were all useless.

The only good advice included was "It's always a good idea to consult a Model A engine manual or seek guidance from an experienced mechanic for accurate instructions tailored to your engine." The rest of it was garbage.

Every now and then I copy/paste a question I see here into ChatGPT to see what answer it comes up with. It has not been correct a single time.

[Hitman]

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I use AI in work, it's a great tool for what it is. It's always learning, so it continues to improve each day, and with each input. It will respond to your query appropriately. Ask it a direct question, and it can usually provide the correct response. Ask it a vague "what's the history of the Ford Model A in 2000 words" and it will pull in some errors or info you deem irrelevant.

I just asked ChatGPT "what's the correct wheel size for a 1931 Ford Model A", and it responded correctly. I followed up with "what carburetor does a 1931 Ford Model A have?" It responded: "The 1931 Ford Model A originally came with a Zenith 1-barrel updraft carburetor". It's not wrong.

Ask that of google and it will just provide you a list of what it thinks are relevant websites that can answer the question.

For fun, ask it to write a rap or country song, and it will provide one! Be careful though, it's always learning and never forgetting, so don't ask personal questions in AI.

[ronn]

as with all information- it will hit its bumps in the road.

the term garbage in and garbage out comes to mind.

everything is only as good as the accuracy of its input. Statistics is a perfect example. We can "bend" stats into any direction we wish. Its done and quoted daily. whether true or not.

[The Master Cylinder]

AI scares me, I keep thinking of the Terminator movies.

[jb-ob]

Again, who sourced the information in AI? What are their inherent biases ?

RE Model A, all information sourced from the Benson Achieves ?
Once randomly pulling blue prints I stumbled across a print for a wiring harness to use '31 Town Car Delivery side lamps on a '31 Deluxe Pickup.
Well at least Ford was prepared.

Beyond Ford most of the internal records from the Briggs Body Company appear lost (Detroit Public Library??). Briggs assemblied approximately 16,000 Cabriolet bodies in 1929. I'd like to believe I have substantial collection of copies of Ford America & Ford Canada literature regarding the '29 Cabriolet. No where is the popular '29 color combination of Rock Moss & Vagabond Green mentioned or offered. I've discovered 5 cabriolets that were originally painted this combo.

In both cases, whose information do we use?

Does AI now replace Moses delivering the Ten Commandants ?

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by Jim/GA

Brent, I went into ChatGPT (a popular Generative AI text website) and asked a simple question:

"How do I adjust the valves on a 1929 Ford Model A engine?"

I got a horrible answer.

They have the option to regenerate the answer, which I chose.

The 2nd answer was worse than the 1st. I did it 3 more times. The answers were all useless.

The only good advice included was "It's always a good idea to consult a Model A engine manual or seek guidance from an experienced mechanic for accurate instructions tailored to your engine." The rest of it was garbage.

Every now and then I copy/paste a question I see here into ChatGPT to see what answer it comes up with. It has not been correct a single time.

Jim,

I’ve never used ChatGPT and I’m not inclined to do so in it’s initial phase. Like with a new car model, it’s best to wait until some of the bugs are worked. It might also be necessary for someone or some group with knowledge of Model A’s to give AI a head start or point it in the right direction, so to speak.

I think it would be necessary for someone to program an initial amount of information at the beginning in order for it to be useful for the Model A hobby, such as the books by respected mechanics, Judging Standards, the technical Bulletins, manuals such as the Andrews series, etc. it might also be a good idea to identify some people who it could rely on for good information.

AI learns quickly, I just hope it happens in my life time! At least it might be very useful for people who inherit our machines and stash’s of parts.

David Serrano

[Brentwood Bob]

Something to ponder.

[alexiskai]

I have a project in mind to train an AI on back issues of the Restorer, the JS, other known-good info sources. I don’t have access yet to the plug-ins I need to move forward on it.

[ursus]

EBay already provides a good example of how AI might be implemented to the detriment of our hobby. Any search for specific Model A parts may be rewarded with EBay listings for various items purporting to "fits Ford Model A" but could be for anything automotive, even as remote as for a 1988 Yugo. Typical is the complete engine kits that claim to be for a Model A but are actually for a late model 4-cylinder engine.

[Keith True]

I grew up playing around cows,so the term,AI means something completely different to me.If the neighbor was out working he would recruit me to point out to the AI lady which cows she was there to service.

[Oldbluoval]

KT….that’s about what’s happening with the “new AI”!!!!

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I have a project in mind to train an AI on back issues of the Restorer, the JS, other known-good info sources. I don’t have access yet to the plug-ins I need to move forward on it.

Alexiskai,

Is it a case of availability of plug-ins, cost or both? If it’s cost, maybe Barners could help.

David Serrano

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I have a project in mind to train an AI on back issues of the Restorer, the JS, other known-good info sources. I don’t have access yet to the plug-ins I need to move forward on it.

The one you want is probably there, you need the ChatGPT 4 subscription to use them. Nearly 100 plugins were recently announced.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Hitman

The one you want is probably there, you need the ChatGPT 4 subscription to use them. Nearly 100 plugins were recently announced.

I have the subscription, I need Code Interpreter, which is still in beta.

[DkFordor]

Originally Posted by ronn

the term garbage in and garbage out comes to mind.

This is particularly true!

AI, or machine learning, needs to be trained on a dataset prior to use. Think of the early spam filters, where certain terms would trigger a 'spam'-label. Spammers would then eg write 'f*ck' to avoid this. The new generation of spamfilters are AI-based. So when you tell your mailbox that this mail was in fact spam - you in fact train the AI behind it.

This also potentially leads to 'dataset' bias. Upon request early AI algorithms would create paintings of persons; ask for a man you'd typically get a man in suit and tie - ask for a woman you'd typically get swimsuits, bikinis or the like

Trained on a proper dataset I am sure AI could prove a valuable asset for the hobby - particularly for the non-experts!

[updraught]

Last time I mentioned having the judging standards in digital form I got hammered.

[TomInCologne]

What is happening with AI at the moment is endlessly fascinating. Don't knock it down because ChatGPT is making a dogs breakfast when asked about adjusting valves on model As.


The advancement in technology through ai at the moment is breathtaking. I got an MRI on my knee done four weeks ago, the diagnosis was done 'with the aid of an a.i.'. The university of Dortmund, my hometown, wrote a software to calculate an image of the universe from neutrinos using an ai based software. (icecube-project) i used to translate texts english-german and vice versa myself, now i just use an a.i. and proof-read the text afterwards, much quicker. we are going to see much more of this in future...



Are there risks involved in this? hell yeah.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by updraught

Last time I mentioned having the judging standards in digital form I got hammered.

There's a difference between publishing the JS in digital form and making a copy for your own use. I know there are folks out there with private PDF versions, made from their own paper editions, that they just find more convenient to use.

[Bob Bidonde]

Here is my response to artificial intelligence about the Model "A":

I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside
I find it all so amusing to think I did all that

And may I say, not in a shy way
Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has not
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels

The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside
I find it all so amusing to think I did all that

And may I say, not in a shy way
Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has not
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels

The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

[rotorwrench]

AI is a simple way of stating modern super computer. It will not have physical affects on humans until we make the mistake of giving that capability to the thinking machines. The caveat was illustrated well in 2001 A Space Odyssey as HAL9000. They gave it the control of the ship to include robotics and life support. A thinking machine that thinks like we do will tend to protect it's own interests much the same as we do. To expect anything different is a form of insanity.

We as humans need to avoid giving non human thinking machines control of things that can bite us in the back side. They should be limited to aid in processes of thinking only. They should be all logic with no emotions but how would they do that? Will they dream if left on?

[Bob Bidonde]

The origin of my Artificial Intelligence is the intelligence gained from owning and driving Model "A's" since 1962. Here's how I learned and developed my intelligence:

I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside
I find it all so amusing to think I did all that

And may I say, not in a shy way
Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has not
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels

The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

[P.S.]

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I am sure many of you have heard about the phenomenon called Artificial Intelligence (AI) that is projected to soon take-over critical thinking, ...and possibly even common thinking.

So I have been wondering to myself for awhile about where will this information come from as it applies to Model-As. Maybe I am wrong, however it has been my view that mis-information about Model-As is 'beyond rampant' on social media platforms (-such as YouTube and FaceBook for starters) to the point now where I often shake my head in disbelief at some of the advice that is given. Ironically though, in several other special interest groups (Professional Engine Rebuilder group, Auto Shop Owners Group, RV Repair groups, Professional Auto Upholstery groups, Painting groups, et/al) I read the comments where the true (those that have vetted experience) professionals are complaining about the overwhelming amount misinformation that is being written, -or video content that is broadcast on these different platforms that is making life difficult for these professionals trying to educate & correct their customer about their preconceived ideas about something that was garnered because they read/heard/saw something on a social media platform that was false.

So, exactly where do we feel the information about Model-As will be found by AI in the future? Will this information be gathered from social media platforms -or somewhere else? Does the Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards even have a chance in the AI world?? Thoughts???


.
.

Suggestion- If the Model A repair AI algorithm were restricted to only the information in Paul Shinn videos, then there would be no problems. But I am biased.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Suggestion- If the Model A repair AI algorithm were restricted to only the information in Paul Shinn videos, then there would be no problems. But I am biased.

............

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..

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Suggestion- If the Model A repair AI algorithm were restricted to only the information in Paul Shinn videos, then there would be no problems. But I am biased.

Looking forward to crashing that AI by asking for tips on generator and cutout restoration.

[Synchro909]

For many of the modern motorists out there, ANY form of intelligence would be welcomed by me.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Looking forward to crashing that AI by asking for tips on generator and cutout restoration.

Ask it which motor oil to use!

[mcgarrett]

Why settle for artificial intelligence when you can have the real thing??

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Ask it which motor oil to use!

That should save humanity. It’ll get AI in an endless loop.

David Serrano

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by mcgarrett

Why settle for artificial intelligence when you can have the real thing??

Ironically, if you look at how much our society has 'dumbed-down' since the Smart Phone has taken over our lives, it kinda makes you wonder just how long it is going to be in our future before many animals in God's Kingdom will surpass the wisdom of the average Human.

[31Cabriolet68-C]

Artificial Intelligence will ultimately create Artificial Intelligencia....
And we better watch out for those morons.

[ronn]

If you want to read about some interesting AI tech

look up Scale and the founder........ brilliant guy. attended MIT at 15 yrs of age. Youngest billionaire..........

would love to own some of that stock if it ever goes public.

[ModelA29]

Just saw an auto restoration show where the wire on the replacement alternator was touching the valve cover. The expert geniuses cut the stud rather that reclocking the cover.



https://www.google.com/search?q=recl...id:91lfKtbU7ew

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by 31Cabriolet68-C

Artificial Intelligence will ultimately create Artificial Intelligencia....
And we better watch out for those morons.

HAL 9000 (Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer)- SKYNET (artificial neural network-based conscious group mind and artificial general superintelligence system)- WOPR (War Operation Plan Response)- VICKI (Virtual Interactive Kinetic Intelligence) - lots of books and movies already out there about AI computer problems. Science has always seemed to want to create what writers envision since Jules Verne and HG Wells.

[GPierce]

You can read 600 Twitter posts a day for free or 6000 a day if you pay. No wonder society is dumbing down. People must spend their whole day scanning Twitter and now face book’s Threads, upstart Twitter competition.

[Oldbluoval]

Heard an interesting assessment.
AI contains most/many facts and figures. What it does not contain is…wisdom.
The necessary human element

[johnneilson]

AI uses nothing more than the data published on the web.
That being the case, with all the old wives tales and mis-information from videos, I feel sorry for new folks who start into this hobby.

John

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

AI uses nothing more than the data published on the web.
That being the case, with all the old wives tales and mis-information from videos, I feel sorry for new folks who start into this hobby.

John

Because they'll be getting their poor practices handed down from videos instead of from the random preferences of guys in their club?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Because they'll be getting their poor practices handed down from videos instead of from the random preferences of guys in their club?

Colin, either way much of the info published is still wrong.

[johnneilson]

Going back to the days of bulletin boards, you have to understand that the information posted is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are some very good clubs and individual posts that are accurate, others not so much.

A friend from work has been playing with AI for a while and we found some very interesting information. Most of it nonsense, at least from a technical standpoint on subjects that are not "trending" at a particular time.

Computers will always be nothing more than a tool subject to the data input.

J

[jrelliott]

I helped develop some of the computers AI is using. One of the applications which we worked in conjunction with Mayo clinic was in the area of diagnostics for patients. The doctor can input all the symptoms and the computer will look through all the available information stored in books, journals etc. and try to give the doctor the best educated guess. This is just one application where it is really helpful. As more queries are made and more accurate diagnostics are achieved, then it becomes a valuable tool. If I had a unusual ailment, would want to go to Mayo for an answer.
It is just sad there is not a way to tap into the knowledge of all the experts who have worked on Model A's or other vehicles and could put that into a pool of knowledge that could be tapped via AI to give us answers to our problems. That is what is nice about this forum you can find experts.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by jrelliott

I helped develop some of the computers AI is using. One of the applications which we worked in conjunction with Mayo clinic was in the area of diagnostics for patients. The doctor can input all the symptoms and the computer will look through all the available information stored in books, journals etc. and try to give the doctor the best educated guess. This is just one application where it is really helpful. As more queries are made and more accurate diagnostics are achieved, then it becomes a valuable tool. If I had a unusual ailment, would want to go to Mayo for an answer.
It is just sad there is not a way to tap into the knowledge of all the experts who have worked on Model A's or other vehicles and could put that into a pool of knowledge that could be tapped via AI to give us answers to our problems. That is what is nice about this forum you can find experts.

Your points are valid. Most comments here relate to questions being asked of AI, much like they are of google. Your results will vary based on the inputs!

AI is impressive when you play behind the scenes with bots and other things.

Most here are asking 2023 AI questions relating to very detailed information from nearly 100 years ago and expect it to differentiate between adjusting valves on a 1931 V16 Cadillac and a 1931 Ford. AI can’t distinguish between the two, and neither can any forum participant!

Don’t forget, ChatGPT hasn’t been updated in six months.

[Jerry in Shasta]

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Like the old saying GI-GO GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT

[David in San Antonio]

AI attempt to diagnose cancer from xrays picked 100% of examples with cancer but also a large number without. Turned out the pictures showing cancerous tumors all had a ruler in the picture to show the size of the tumor, and the AI selected all the pictures with rulers. This was corrected prior to further testing.
Another example: Very large financial customer service company AI monitored the thousands of daily phone calls for key words associated with sales. For good measure it also picked out offensive language. Within one week it showed an unbelievable count of clients and phone representatives discussing nudity! Turned out the calls were about "annuities" which wasn't in the stored vocabulary. Got fixed.

[alexiskai]

Quick update on my AI project now that Code Interpreter has been released to OpenAI Plus users. I had hoped that the Code Intepreter function would be able to parse PDFs of books and extract text, but so far I haven't been able to get it to do that. However, GPT-4 is able to write Python scripts for me that will do that on my workstation.

So my first task has been to convert images of The Restorer magazine to text files. As you may know, MAFCA sells the entire back catalog of The Restorer from 1956-2006 on a flash drive, but it's all images – not searchable. I was able to get the AI to write a script that converts each issue of the magazine from images to a single text file. Of course, all of the photos are stripped out, but for the moment I'm just trying to create a corpus that will be suitable to train the AI.

My next phase will be to work through the service bulletins, which I also have as PDF already. Then on to other books, like the JS, the Les Andrews blue book, and the McRee engine rebuilding guide. These I'll have to scan myself.

Once I finish those, I'll start figuring out how to process what I have into a database to train the AI on.

All of this content will live on my workstation, so not even a shadow of copyright issues yet. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

AI uses nothing more than the data published on the web.

John

Yikes! That means that AI is basing its conclusions on opinions written by people. Even worse, mostly people who drink that beer in blue cans.

[Karl Wescott]

To pick nits...


This conversation has been about "THE MODEL A". The assumption is Ford 1928-31 Model A. Or should it be Ford 1927-32 Model A? What about Ford 1903 Model A? Or what about the hundreds of other manufactures, automobile or otherwise, who had a Model A?


OK so I deliberately confused the question. An AI will be initially easily confused until it has enough information and relevant database to parse a relevant answer.


Hypothetically, Q: "How many blades on an original Model A"? A: Please clarify, are we talking about a Ford 1903 or 1928-31, a 1914 Frankenburner, or something else?


Now a risk I just took is some AI might really think there was such a thing as a 1914 Frankenburner... Learning to recognize satire is HARD.


The BEST solution would be for the clubs to embrace AI, but have a proprietary and protected and vetted database, such as alexiskai is attempting.

[Jim Huseby]

Honestly, this thread contains answers for me that I wasn't expecting. Like many of us, I like old cars because they take me back to the years of my innocence and what I think was a more honest and less complicated and deceptive era. Though I was an electronics technician in the Air Force, I am contemptuous of computers in automobiles and contemptuous of the present philosophy that I must alter my human logic to use my cell phone or computer. I am alive to be open to all possibilities for advancement, including AI, but determined to grow toward the fulfillment of knowledge and of heart and soul.
The bright hope I see is the human souls and intellects that contributed to this thread.
Your humanity, as continually demonstrated by sharing info and anecdotes, and your intelligence is a safe haven for me, though I am frequently challenged beyond my intellectual capacity. Many of us have been fordbarners for a long time and can discern between bonafide and bogus knowledge and personalities. On ford barn, I have encountered some of the most remarkable sources of real intelligence and character.

[David in San Antonio]

Jim, Thumbs up. “…Contemptuous of the philosophy that I must alter my human logic to use my cell phone or computer.” Well said. The current rash of touch screen controlled car dashboards has stopped me from replacing my 2016 car. In my career I was responsible for marketing and sales of highly technical investment products. Left to their own devices the software programmers, investment managers, actuaries, administrators and the rest of the home office would have made the products impossible to understand or use except by their insider peers. No client wants to learn a whole new vocabulary and decipher procedures just to earn the privilege of buying the product. I went to war against jargon and acronyms for example. Plain English, short sentences. The basic test was whether my elderly mother could understand it. Intelligent, interested, but not an industry insider.
KISS (keep it simple, stupid) was a hackneyed cliche, but seems to have been forgotten.

[jb-ob]

Jim & Dave, 2X, jb

[mrraford]

Wait for the Terminator to arrive and ask him.... after you loan him a pair of pants......

[alexiskai]

Initial tests looking good! This was a test run using only a couple of sources.