Any help for a new guy?

[Garcia]

I'm a new owner of a 31 roadster, and I'm in trouble. Despite doing everything Les Andrews told me to do, my engine runs about like Jack Benny's Maxwell. Is there anybody in the Spokane area who might be able to help me out? Although it's great fun to sit behind the wheel, I'd also like to maybe drive it around the block once or twice.

[The Master Cylinder]

Not trying to be a smart A$$ but how did it run before you "tuned it up"? We need something/somewhere to start. What exactly did Mr. Andrews tell you to do? What is the condition of the engine, etc?

Oh, and welcome to the Barn.

[Rob Doe]

You'll get plenty of help. Just start typing out a description.

[old31]

Please explain more in detail by what you mean "my engine runs about like Jack Benny's Maxwell". Then we can begin to help you out.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

Not trying to be a smart A$$ but how did it run before you "tuned it up"? We need something/somewhere to start. What exactly did Mr. Andrews tell you to do? What is the condition of the engine, etc?

Oh, and welcome to the Barn.

Thanks for the welcome. It ran fine around the block a couple times before I bought it, but the auto transport trailer was too big for my neighborhood (he said), so I had to pick the car up at 10 pm at a truck stop eight miles away. Along the way home, it kept stalling and backfiring. A guy who seemed to be knowledgeable about cars in general monkeyed around under the hood, and followed me for the whole trip. We managed to get it almost all the way home, except it died for good at the end of my alley and we had to push it the rest of the way.

Since then, it has been somewhat on and off. I drove it around the neighborhood once with no problem, then tried again a couple days later. That time, the engine just died and I was lucky to meet up with a guy with a pickup and a tow strap.

I figured the best thing would be to set the points (it has modern points) and timing and adjust the two adjustments on the carburetor according to Andrews, and since then some days it will start and some days it won't. It's the kind of thing that can't really be described in a forum post, which is why I was hoping somebody locally might be willing to help.

Tomorrow, I intend to work through the roadside troubleshooting steps from the Andrews troubleshooting book and maybe find something glaringly wrong and easily fixed.

If there's anything I can specifically address that might make things clearer, please let me know.

[stevests]

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Sounds like it could be a fuel supply issue.

[redmodelt]

Did you turn the fuel shut off valve on? Following Les info, where did you have the GAV set?

[daveymc29]

Any vehicle new to me will get all of the fluids changed before I try to drive it. Then I will usually put a charger on the battery and slowly charge it up while I take a compression test. Depending on the results I may take the head off or put some Marvels Mystery oil in each cylinder and hand crank it over to get a feel for how it feels to me while listening for any strange sounds such as something loose. Then I bring the timing up on compression until the timing pin slides into the hole in the timing gear, check that with a flashlight and a mirror to be sure the hole is centered, timing advance lever up all the way. At this point I make three marks, one on the front pully and two on nearby bolt heads, using white paint, so I can glance at the front of the timing case as I crank to fint top dead center from now on. Check point gap and undue the fuel line to check how quickly the fuel flows to fill about a cup or so vessel. Make whatever adjustments I think are necessary then try to start the car. (While the plugs were out for the compression check I will clean and gap them before replacing or reinstalling the old. If it starts and runs I feel I now have a starting point and will work from there before I take a ride very far from the garage. These days I have also taken to pulling the fuel valve and installing one of the pencil filters the then go up into the tank when I reinstall the shut off.

[marty in Ohio]

Garcia, I have modern points in my '30 town sedan too. Your problem sounds much like the trouble I had a couple years back. Mine was solved with a new condenser. Get the good one from NAPA. The number was FA-82. Just a thought.
Marty

[nkaminar]

The condenser is a good place to start. You can check it with an ohm meter but it is often easier just to replace it.

Other new Model A owners on the forum have found the carburetor full of crap. Assuming you have a Zenith, they are easy to open up. Take some carburetor cleaner to it without taking it further apart and blow out all the jets and passages with compressed air.

Check the timing and the point gap (0.020 inch) but it is likely that they are OK.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by old31

Please explain more in detail by what you mean "my engine runs about like Jack Benny's Maxwell". Then we can begin to help you out.

Sorry, but I thought Jack Benny's Maxwell was world famous. Here's a link to a YouTube audio with Mel Blanc as the Maxwell.
https://youtu.be/17N2g2Ryqi8

[jayvee34]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Sorry, but I thought Jack Benny's Maxwell was world famous. Here's a link to a YouTube audio with Mel Blanc as the Maxwell.
https://youtu.be/17N2g2Ryqi8

I "well" remember Jack Benny's Maxwell

[700rpm]

How old is the gas in it?

[1930artdeco]

Here is another thought, albeit a long shot. After verifying the above check to see if you have a wireless distributor. Sometimes the contact arm wears a grove in the lower plate of the dist. Or if it is a stock dist. Check the wire from the lower plate to the top plate as it might be grounding out. Even, the armored cable that goes into the dist. Could be screwed in to far and grounding out-it only needs about 2 turns or so. Again these are long shots.

Mike

[old31]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Sorry, but I thought Jack Benny's Maxwell was world famous. Here's a link to a YouTube audio with Mel Blanc as the Maxwell.
https://youtu.be/17N2g2Ryqi8

Yes, I am very familiar with Jack and his Maxwell. I just needed you to explain to us in detail what exactly is going on so that we could help you.

[Garcia]

Thanks for all the comments. This weekend, I checked and re-checked the point gap and timing, and even got my wife, who has a finer touch, to verify the point gap. I used the test light, and it came on at the second notch of the spark advance. The coil wire sends a blue-white spark more than a quarter inch to a head nut. There are four new Autolite 3076 plugs gapped at .035, but they are now black with carbon. (If it matters, I have a B or Police head.) I got the engine going fairly smoothly but I still have problems starting and running. On starting, I get a few chugga-chuggas before it finally catches, and while running I get muffler backfires that could wake the dead.

Among those offering suggestions, stevests, redmodelt, and 700rpm all were concerned about the gasoline. There wasn’t much gas in it when I got it, and I neglected to fill it before my eight mile trip from the truck stop to my house. Since then, I’ve added about five gallons of non-ethanol gas, figuring regular gas might work but wanting to remove the ethanol as a variable until I get the rest sorted out. There was a paper/plastic filter installed, which I replaced, again to remove a variable. The gas is flowing freely, and when I start the engine, I have the spark fully retarded, the throttle down to where it’s horizontal, and the GAV open one quarter turn.

On the advice of marty in Ohio and nkaminar, I’ll either be checking the condenser or just going to NAPA for a new one. Also, I checked the carb and it’s not clogged. Although 1930artdeco said it might be a long shot, I’m going to check the lower distributor plate and armored cable.

Also, daveymc29 suggested putting a charger on the battery and taking a compression test. I installed a new Optima battery, so that’s good, and I have to get a compression tester. He also had a great idea about finding the timing dimple. I followed his example, but besides the white marks, I also scored the pin when it was in the dimple so I could see that was in.

I’m probably not mentioning the prime symptom that would take care of everything, but I’ll keep trying.

[Harpkatt]

Does it pop back through the carb at all in addition to the exhaust backfire?

[Anteek29]

There are 12 Model A Clubs in WA. Perhaps one is close to you for assistance? I sent you a PM on how to contact them.

Alan

[nkaminar]

A simple way to check the compression is to turn the engine over with the hand crank. It should pull with the same resistance on all cylinders. A really good engine will not leak compression on a slow pull. Sometimes you can hear a hiss from the crankcase if the rings are worn or from the intake if an intake valve is leaking, or from the exhaust manifold with the exhaust pipe removed if an exhaust valve is leaking.

[GeneBob]

Backfire out the exhaust and black plugs sounds like it is too rich and fouling the plugs. Of course, as some suggested, if the spark is not always as strong as your test showed, you could get the same results. When in doubt, replace the condenser.
When it won't start, pull a plug to see if it is wet. Do you smell raw gas under the hood or out the exhaust pipe?

[Lanny]

Also, when checking compression with a tester, make sure the plate
in the carb is held open, so it can suck air into each cylinder in order
to get an accurate compression reading.



.

[ETAModel]

Welcome to the Barn. Remember We were all ONCE the new guy. After lusting for a model A for 20 years I finally have the chance to work on and drive one, even though it isn't mine, (long story).

I don't recall if you checked to see if fuel is getting from tank to carb? The 30 Fordor sat for 18 months with real gas and MMO in the tank, but the carb got gummed up. I drained the tank, cleaned the carb with cheap carb cleaner, charged the battery and she sprung to life.

I had a similar situation on my '56 Farmall. Finding a good condenser was a chore, and NAPA sent me a 12V coil, but swapping them both out fixed my problems.

I know there's times you want to pull out your hair, but when you get it right its a blast making the drag...(do they still do that ?)

[jg61hawk]

Intermittent no spark can be one big symptom especially after warming up. Another member posted here to mount one spare condenser on the firewall and use a jumper wire to the passenger side of the coil as soon as you stall to bypass your condenser. Easy check if the condenser is bad.
Put the following in search: Jackson III 2nd Condenser

[Fred K OR]

Originally Posted by GeneBob

Backfire out the exhaust and black plugs sounds like it is too rich and fouling the plugs. Of course, as some suggested, if the spark is not always as strong as your test showed, you could get the same results. When in doubt, replace the condenser.
When it won't start, pull a plug to see if it is wet. Do you smell raw gas under the hood or out the exhaust pipe?

I would replace the condenser like mentioned and maybe the coil.

[Garcia]

A breakthrough!

My compliments to marty in Ohio, nkaminar, GeneBob, Lanny, ETAModel, jg61hawk, and Fred K OR for suggesting a new condenser. I really appreciate all the comments, but these guys hit the nail on the thumb. I stopped by NAPA today and bought what they call an alternator condenser, part ECH FA82 of the Echlin ignition line for my Nu-Rex distributor plate. After I installed it, the car started right up. I drove it down the alley and back without problems.

I don’t mind saying that I was about to take out an ad in Hemmings and just wash my hands of this problem. I got this car expecting to drive around, do minor maintenance, and keep things shiny and clean. Instead, I have had six weeks worth of pain and frustration. I really hope this takes care of the major problems for a while. I can get back on the horse, but it's going to take a while before I have sufficient confidence to do more than drive around the block.

Again, thanks for all the help.

[jg61hawk]

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But on the other hand....6 weeks without posting here, in 3 days you were good to go after posting.(we hope). Relax and enjoy it, carry some parts and post here. I too went slow at first gaining confidence but eventually drove 500 miles round trip to Gettysburg and loved it. It's not a plane, you can pull over!

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE FOLLOW UP THAT'S IMPORTANT HERE, folks put in a lot time and effort it's good to hear what works and doesn't work. Especially when I'm right!!!

[GeneBob]

Thanks for the follow up, it is great to hear when the suggestions help someone. That is what the fellowship of Model A's is about.
BTW, something for you to do a quick check on. Check your fan blade. You can search on the forum to see if your blade should be replaced. Better to replace it if it is suspect because a broken fan blade will ruin your day.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Garcia

A breakthrough!

My compliments to marty in Ohio, nkaminar, GeneBob, Lanny, ETAModel, jg61hawk, and Fred K OR for suggesting a new condenser. I really appreciate all the comments, but these guys hit the nail on the thumb. I stopped by NAPA today and bought what they call an alternator condenser, part ECH FA82 of the Echlin ignition line for my Nu-Rex distributor plate. After I installed it, the car started right up. I drove it down the alley and back without problems.

I don’t mind saying that I was about to take out an ad in Hemmings and just wash my hands of this problem. I got this car expecting to drive around, do minor maintenance, and keep things shiny and clean. Instead, I have had six weeks worth of pain and frustration. I really hope this takes care of the major problems for a while. I can get back on the horse, but it's going to take a while before I have sufficient confidence to do more than drive around the block.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Did you buy an extra condenser to carry as a spare?


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[mhsprecher]

Which Les Andrews book were you referring to the red book or the blue book? Both are essential. The blue book as more troubleshooting and diagnostics.

They do get frustrating sometimes, but they are pretty simple to figure out. It also helps to post here, as you have done, and to have a fellow Model A person with you when working on the car to provide another perspective.

[nkaminar]

Warning: Technical Discussion

It has been many decades since I took my electrical theory class in collage but here is what I remember. The coil and the condenser work together to form a tuned LC circuit. LC stands for inductance and capacitance. It is like a spring and a weight or the pendulum in a clock. The coil charges up then discharges into the condenser which then discharges back into the coil. This creates multiple sparks in the spark plug that happen in a fraction of a second. It looks like one spark to our eyes. Without the condenser you may get a weak spark but not enough to run the engine.

Class dismissed.

[Garcia]

I spoke (typed) too soon.

With my new condenser, I put the wife in the car and headed down the road. I got about 500 yards away from the house and the engine sputtered out. It turns out that with gas actually being used by the engine, lots was coming from the tank, and lots of long-ignored sediment was coming with it, plugging the fuel filter. We pushed it about 300 yards and then I walked home for tools and supplies to fix it. It turns out I didn't have what I needed, so we pushed it the rest of the way home.

The pushing was no fun, but the sediment in the clear plastic fuel filter made it obvious what the problem was, so I didn't feel as bad as I had with the previous problems. I have learned, though, to keep a toolbox with some spare parts in the floor space of the rumble seat for problems like this. Probably both Andrews books, too.

As jg61hawk pointed out, six weeks of stumbling around on my own wasn't as good as three days on the forum. Thanks, guys.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Is there anybody in the Spokane area who might be able to help me out?

Check out Antique Auto Ranch, 2225 N Dollar Road, Spokane Valley. They're a great bunch.

[Doug Linden]

There are a lot of
model a members in your area. I would contact the local club and see if you could get some local help to make a house call. The Inland Empire A's is the local club and if you visit the MAFCA website you can get the contact information.
https://www.mafca.com/chapters/WA.html