The Ford Barn

47topless · 12-19-2023, 06:16 AM

I am new to Model A Fords. I recently purchased a 1931 Victoria and the valve that controls the fuel flow is installed on the outside of the firewall, inside the engine compartment. Is this the normal location for this? Should it not be installed inside the cabin? The current location requires me to open and close the hood each time that I start or stop the engine. Seems terribly bothersome.
Would moving the valve to the inside of the firewall be ok? Or would that move release the pitchforks and torches mob?
Thank you,
Phil

Big hammer · 12-19-2023, 07:44 AM

Yes, no, yes, fix the leaking carburetor and leave the gas valve on, no, you have ! Enjoy your new learning experience !

Joe K · 12-19-2023, 07:57 AM

You can install a SECOND valve inline upstream of the outside valve. You could have it "quarter turn" like those pre-1931 cars have (and a small drip makes the inside of the car smell like a refinery.)

There are those that claim a mild refinery smell is a "Model A" smell. "Brings to memory trips with Dad."

There are those that replace a worn inside valve with a more modern "compression shutoff" valve rather than the quarter turn to get past this original design defect.

But if you're going to that effort, make it a solenoid type valve that when you turn on the ignition, it turns on the fuel. These have been sold and used to prevent the car from dripping since it is a "pressurized" fuel system by gravity. And is probably best installed in the engine compartment. It is one solution to an endemic Model A problem that despite the farmer fix wiring, is easily done and easily reversed. (Don't sacrifice a "seamed" gas line to effect this - use a modern seamless tube.)

The best - and most difficult to achieve solution is the original "bubble tight" shutoff that is required to make the original system work properly. Even in the day MANY replacement float valves were offered as solution - the best survivor option being probably a neoprene pointed shutoff needle - which are available today.

Joe K

nkaminar · 12-19-2023, 08:38 AM

The quarter turn ball valves are reliable and can be installed inside the car in the fuel line from the bottom of the tank to the firewall. Use the proper fittings and check for leaks. You don't want any leaks.

A solenoid valve that turns on with the ignition is handy but adds another device that can fail. If you install the solenoid valve, carry the parts to remove it in case it fails.

I found, quite accidentally, that the fuel pump I use for my Weber carburetor will shut off the fuel. I carry the parts to replace the pump in case it fails. I just don't trust electronic devices. I have had many fail on my boat in the past.

Big hammer · 12-19-2023, 09:41 AM

A little education about the late 31 gas tank, it’s not like the 28,29,30,31 A’s. The outlet is a cast fitting attached to the bottom of the tank and sticks through the firewall. Putting a gas valve before the original valve isn’t ( 99.7%) possible, someone would totally redesign the tank and prove me wrong. The OP’s options is to add an electric valve, 50$ valve plus extras or make the carburetor drip proof and just shut of the ignition and leave the car. You can make the carburetor drip less, I have , I haven’t messed the my carburetor for 3-4 years.
In the service bulletins show the late gas tank and the cast fitting ! Class over

Joe K · 12-19-2023, 09:50 AM

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Thanks BH for the update. I kind of had an inkling of what you describe but it's certainly not my car.

The electric gas valve has a lot to recommend - but also kind of "undoes" the simplicity of the vehicle. One can imagine "why can't my car get fuel" as the next question/issue.

Funny. I had a John Deere 110 lawn tractor which has EXACTLY the same Model A/gravity/carburetor arrangement WITH the viton tipped needle - which NEVER leaked in nearly 50 years of use.

But would "stick" in place when it sat over the winter and got affected a bit by the alcohol in the gas. A sharp rap with a hammer (to dislodge the needle) and I was off to another mowing season.

So perhaps best to say every system has its weak point.

Joe K

Bigsnapper43 · 12-19-2023, 10:25 PM

If this is a teardrop fire wall unit as described there is no place to re plum a valve in side the cabin.

gdmn852 · 12-19-2023, 10:40 PM

Hello, I have a late 31 roadster , a electric shut off was on the car when I bought it and seems to work well, also installed is a master shut off for the battery, disconnecting all power when open.

47topless · 12-19-2023, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsnapper43

If this is a teardrop fire wall unit as described there is no place to re plum a valve in side the cabin.

That is disappointing. From this thread, I have learned how much I do not know about these cool cars. I watched a Utube video on how to start a Model A and the first step they made was to reach down, inside the cabin, and turn on the fuel valve.
Oh well.
Thank you all for your responses. Now back to my learning curve. It looks like I need to fix any carburetor leaks that exist and then just leave the fuel shut off valve open.
Phil

Bob Bidonde · 12-20-2023, 09:13 AM

In mid 1931, the gas shutoff valve was relocated to the engine side of the firewall. Prior to mid 1931, the valve was inside of the car on the bottom of the gas tank. Some municipalities considered the interior location to be a safety hazard, and they shied away from buying Fords. Ford reacted by relocating the valve.
If your Victoria has a Murray Body Number on its firewall that you can post here, I can ballpark the cars assembly date. By the way, have you joined the International Victoria Association?

nkaminar · 12-20-2023, 09:25 AM

Phil, You should fix any leaks but for safety also install a solenoid valve as others have suggested. Even if the float valve is perfect, a little piece of dirt or rust can cause a leak.

I always learn something when visiting the Forum. Thank you all for explaining that there is not an inside line from the tank to the valve on these later cars.

Bigsnapper43 · 12-20-2023, 08:23 PM

I have a 31 with teardrop fire wall. I still raise the hood and shut off the fuel every time I stop.

Y-Blockhead · 12-21-2023, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsnapper43

I have a 31 with teardrop fire wall. I still raise the hood and shut off the fuel every time I stop.

Good practice, especially if you park in your garage.

47topless · 12-21-2023, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

In mid 1931, the gas shutoff valve was relocated to the engine side of the firewall. Prior to mid 1931, the valve was inside of the car on the bottom of the gas tank. Some municipalities considered the interior location to be a safety hazard, and they shied away from buying Fords. Ford reacted by relocating the valve.
If your Victoria has a Murray Body Number on its firewall that you can post here, I can ballpark the cars assembly date. By the way, have you joined the International Victoria Association?

Here is the body tag.
Thank you
phil

PS. I do have a distributor tune up kit, ready to install, that includes the proper spark plug wires etc.

nkaminar · 12-21-2023, 02:09 PM

Phil, Unless you have an automatic spark advance, you will want to hook up the spark advance lever. There is a rod that goes from the arm at the bottom of the steering column to the distributor. The modern insulated wire on the 4th plug was probably on the 3rd plug because the metal spark plug strap sometimes will short out on the rod.

Some people have reported problems with the paper element filters in the gas line. If you do not have a problem with it, carry spares in case it gets clogged.

Since this car is new to you, retorque the head nuts. The sequence does not matter very much but start at 45 ft-lbs and then final torque at 55 ft-lbs.

Sunny the Model A · 12-24-2023, 07:12 PM

I prefer the indented firewall over the standard fuel tanks because of the increased safety factor. I actually plan on any 30-31 car I acquire in the future to swap in the indented firewall and fuel tank in, so there is no fear of fuel getting into the interior. just my two cents.

The Master Cylinder · 12-25-2023, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Phil, Unless you have an automatic spark advance, you will want to hook up the spark advance lever. There is a rod that goes from the arm at the bottom of the steering column to the distributor.

The spark rod appears to be installed to me??

Keith True · 12-25-2023, 11:14 AM

I have an indented firewall coupe,and I don't want to own another one.Since I first drove my A in 1973 I have reached under the tank and shut the fuel off when I get out.I have to open the hood now to do that.It will be fine 30 times in a row,then a small speck of dirt gets in the needle and lets the carb drip.I don't know what kind of safety issue there would be with the shutoff inside,if I develop a seep I would rather have it inside where I could smell it right off instead of having it drip on the exhaust pipe.I have been looking for a 30-31 pickup cab,and passed on a pretty good 31 steeltop because of the indented firewall.

12-19-2023, 06:16 AM	#1
47topless Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 281	fuel shutoff valve location I am new to Model A Fords. I recently purchased a 1931 Victoria and the valve that controls the fuel flow is installed on the outside of the firewall, inside the engine compartment. Is this the normal location for this? Should it not be installed inside the cabin? The current location requires me to open and close the hood each time that I start or stop the engine. Seems terribly bothersome. Would moving the valve to the inside of the firewall be ok? Or would that move release the pitchforks and torches mob? Thank you, Phil

12-19-2023, 07:44 AM	#2
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,131	Re: fuel shutoff valve location Yes, no, yes, fix the leaking carburetor and leave the gas valve on, no, you have ! Enjoy your new learning experience ! __________________ Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap get a bigger hammer tap done

12-19-2023, 07:57 AM	#3
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: fuel shutoff valve location You can install a SECOND valve inline upstream of the outside valve. You could have it "quarter turn" like those pre-1931 cars have (and a small drip makes the inside of the car smell like a refinery.) There are those that claim a mild refinery smell is a "Model A" smell. "Brings to memory trips with Dad." There are those that replace a worn inside valve with a more modern "compression shutoff" valve rather than the quarter turn to get past this original design defect. But if you're going to that effort, make it a solenoid type valve that when you turn on the ignition, it turns on the fuel. These have been sold and used to prevent the car from dripping since it is a "pressurized" fuel system by gravity. And is probably best installed in the engine compartment. It is one solution to an endemic Model A problem that despite the farmer fix wiring, is easily done and easily reversed. (Don't sacrifice a "seamed" gas line to effect this - use a modern seamless tube.) The best - and most difficult to achieve solution is the original "bubble tight" shutoff that is required to make the original system work properly. Even in the day MANY replacement float valves were offered as solution - the best survivor option being probably a neoprene pointed shutoff needle - which are available today. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

12-19-2023, 08:38 AM	#4
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,901	Re: fuel shutoff valve location The quarter turn ball valves are reliable and can be installed inside the car in the fuel line from the bottom of the tank to the firewall. Use the proper fittings and check for leaks. You don't want any leaks. A solenoid valve that turns on with the ignition is handy but adds another device that can fail. If you install the solenoid valve, carry the parts to remove it in case it fails. I found, quite accidentally, that the fuel pump I use for my Weber carburetor will shut off the fuel. I carry the parts to replace the pump in case it fails. I just don't trust electronic devices. I have had many fail on my boat in the past. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-19-2023, 09:41 AM	#5
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,131	Re: fuel shutoff valve location A little education about the late 31 gas tank, it’s not like the 28,29,30,31 A’s. The outlet is a cast fitting attached to the bottom of the tank and sticks through the firewall. Putting a gas valve before the original valve isn’t ( 99.7%) possible, someone would totally redesign the tank and prove me wrong. The OP’s options is to add an electric valve, 50$ valve plus extras or make the carburetor drip proof and just shut of the ignition and leave the car. You can make the carburetor drip less, I have , I haven’t messed the my carburetor for 3-4 years. In the service bulletins show the late gas tank and the cast fitting ! Class over __________________ Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap get a bigger hammer tap done

12-19-2023, 09:50 AM	#6
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: fuel shutoff valve location Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Thanks BH for the update. I kind of had an inkling of what you describe but it's certainly not my car. The electric gas valve has a lot to recommend - but also kind of "undoes" the simplicity of the vehicle. One can imagine "why can't my car get fuel" as the next question/issue. Funny. I had a John Deere 110 lawn tractor which has EXACTLY the same Model A/gravity/carburetor arrangement WITH the viton tipped needle - which NEVER leaked in nearly 50 years of use. But would "stick" in place when it sat over the winter and got affected a bit by the alcohol in the gas. A sharp rap with a hammer (to dislodge the needle) and I was off to another mowing season. So perhaps best to say every system has its weak point. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

12-19-2023, 10:25 PM	#7
Bigsnapper43 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 84	Re: fuel shutoff valve location If this is a teardrop fire wall unit as described there is no place to re plum a valve in side the cabin.

12-19-2023, 10:40 PM	#8
gdmn852 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Erie Pa Posts: 689	Re: fuel shutoff valve location Hello, I have a late 31 roadster , a electric shut off was on the car when I bought it and seems to work well, also installed is a master shut off for the battery, disconnecting all power when open.

12-20-2023, 09:25 AM	#11
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,901	Re: fuel shutoff valve location Phil, You should fix any leaks but for safety also install a solenoid valve as others have suggested. Even if the float valve is perfect, a little piece of dirt or rust can cause a leak. I always learn something when visiting the Forum. Thank you all for explaining that there is not an inside line from the tank to the valve on these later cars. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-20-2023, 08:23 PM	#12
Bigsnapper43 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 84	Re: fuel shutoff valve location I have a 31 with teardrop fire wall. I still raise the hood and shut off the fuel every time I stop.

12-21-2023, 02:09 PM	#15
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,901	Re: fuel shutoff valve location Phil, Unless you have an automatic spark advance, you will want to hook up the spark advance lever. There is a rod that goes from the arm at the bottom of the steering column to the distributor. The modern insulated wire on the 4th plug was probably on the 3rd plug because the metal spark plug strap sometimes will short out on the rod. Some people have reported problems with the paper element filters in the gas line. If you do not have a problem with it, carry spares in case it gets clogged. Since this car is new to you, retorque the head nuts. The sequence does not matter very much but start at 45 ft-lbs and then final torque at 55 ft-lbs. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 12-21-2023 at 02:19 PM.

12-24-2023, 07:12 PM	#16
Sunny the Model A Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Charleston SC Posts: 169	Re: fuel shutoff valve location I prefer the indented firewall over the standard fuel tanks because of the increased safety factor. I actually plan on any 30-31 car I acquire in the future to swap in the indented firewall and fuel tank in, so there is no fear of fuel getting into the interior. just my two cents. __________________ "Quality means doing it right when no one is looking" Henry Ford

12-25-2023, 11:14 AM	#18
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,990	Re: fuel shutoff valve location I have an indented firewall coupe,and I don't want to own another one.Since I first drove my A in 1973 I have reached under the tank and shut the fuel off when I get out.I have to open the hood now to do that.It will be fine 30 times in a row,then a small speck of dirt gets in the needle and lets the carb drip.I don't know what kind of safety issue there would be with the shutoff inside,if I develop a seep I would rather have it inside where I could smell it right off instead of having it drip on the exhaust pipe.I have been looking for a 30-31 pickup cab,and passed on a pretty good 31 steeltop because of the indented firewall.