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Old 12-02-2021, 04:13 AM   #1
Werner
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Default Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Hi MMO fans.


I have been using the Ampco vacuum dispenser for MMO for 2 years. It works very accurately when properly adjusted.

However, it bothers me that he adds MMO when the gas is reduced, so when the engine power is low.

After a long search, I have now found the device Marvel Inverse Oiler, which doses in reverse, namely when the engine turns under load.

Does anyone have the Marvel Oiler and can recommend good or bad about it?

Thanks in advance!


https://www.ebay.de/itm/174583588062
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Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:32 AM   #2
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Default Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

I've an Ampco that works OK, but as a practical matter I don't think it makes any appreciable difference whether under load or not. The idea is to remove gum and varnish accumulations from valves and piston ring grooves in neglected or mistuned engines. Adding Marvel's directly to the fuel tank accomplishes this. This also has a benefit in that it seems to help protect alloy carb castings and rubber fuel system components. Modern gasoline tends to be corrosive or problematic in vintage fuel systems.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Hi,

I got one. Unfortunately, I can't find a post that describes the vacuum function / scheme, how the Marvel Inverter works.
Does anyone know a functional description and sectional drawing or exploded view?

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Old 12-03-2021, 08:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Would not putting the MMO in the gasoline do the same thing: add more under load? Or, as someone suggested, using two cycle oil in the gasoline?
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Old 12-03-2021, 10:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Yes, that's a good practical solution, of course.
But with such an ingenious dosing machine, it's very much nicer!
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Old 12-03-2021, 01:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

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I take the liberty to quote a post from 12.10.2017 from MikeK:


There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in operation between the Original patented Marvel INVERSE oilers and the Ampco and other simple knockoffs that feed oil DIRECTLY proportional to engine vacuum. People often confuse the two as similar in function.

An inverse oiler (Only Marvel oilers) feed less oil when the manifold vacuum is high (cruising, idling) and more when the vacuum is less (accelerating, going uphill, etc.)

Ampco and the other wannabies are simple suction devices. At high engine load (low vacc) they feed nothing. At high vacc idle and cruising they feed the maximum.

I have several Marvel oilers (I collect them) and would only run an inverse oiler, never a direct proportional one like the Ampco's. If you are using it on an industrial engine with constant speed and load you may want the Ampco, but those, unlike the Marvel inverse oliers, must be mounted lower than the engine vacc connection.

Marvels were required original equipment with Judson supercharger kits in the 70's
or no warranty on the rotor and housing. They were also popular on gasoline engine trucks. Ampcos were often added to industrial stationary engines.


The Original Inverse Oiler Patent.

Notice it was issued to Paxton, not "Marvel"


Now, this just begs the question: Why bother, just mix the stuff in your gas. That all comes down to droplet size and what happens to the stuff. In either case some of it will be burned as vaporized fuel and some deposited on valve stems and cylinder walls. Atomizing it through a carb will create extremely small droplets as the fuel vaporizes and leaves the MMO behind. When mixed in the gas you will get more burn and less product delivery to metal surfaces than with the coarser spattering that a direct droplet feed will provide.


40 years ago I built and ran quite a few SBC race engines, both strip and circle for myself and others. They all had the metal can (unbreakable) MMO inverse feeders. Never seized an exhaust stem or ripped up a cylinder. More than I could say for the competition. Since it was mostly low vac. & W.O.T. the inverse oiler worked best. An Ampco would not. However, for lots of idling and easy high-vac street driving with little or no W.O.T. the Ampco (which I do NOT collect) would probably deliver a better feed rate profile. So I guess you could say I like the overall concept of both of them.

Yes, the directions for the Marvel oilers, both initial setup and rebuilding, are online if you search.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Have any of you looked at old movies of race cars in the early part of the last century. You will find a cloud of exhaust following each car. The reason is that the would run a large amount of oil in the gasoline. The lubrication of the early engines was crude and not adequate for racing. So thus the cloud of exhaust.

Two cycle engines run quite well on 40 to 1 gasoline to oil. The two cycle oil is designed to burn clean but also lubricate the bearings in the crankcase and piston and rings. The two cycle oil does not leave ash or carbon in the combustion chamber. I am not saying that you should run MMO as two cycle oil in your chain saw, but that maybe two cycle oil might be a good choice for added lubrication in the engine. I think MMO has solvent properties, so it might be the better choice.
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A is for apple, green as the sky.
Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die.
Forget the brakes, they really don't work.
The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk.
My car grows red hair, and flies through the air.
Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Modern two-stroke oil is a light engine oil with a small amount of additives, which - depending on the quality (!) - leaves more or less residues. (Type "low smoke", "low ash".) It contains solubilizers for put it into the tank or none for "Autolube" dosing. However, the cleaning effect is only slight.

MMO is a high-temperature-resistant synthetic ester oil that contains a lot of very strong detergents and dispersants. MMO can aid lubrication and has very strong ash and soot solubility.
MMO is unsuitable for engine lubrication alone.


btw:
The fairy tale is often told that ATF gear oils are just as good like MMO. (Probably because they are the same red color.? That is completely wrong, ATF is unsuitable for engine combustion!
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:47 AM   #9
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Werner, this is a very interesting thread and I have learned a lot. Thank you.

So maybe a combination of MMO and two cycle oil?
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A is for apple, green as the sky.
Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die.
Forget the brakes, they really don't work.
The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk.
My car grows red hair, and flies through the air.
Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.
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Old 12-04-2021, 12:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

Werner, Email sent with full patent text.
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Last edited by MikeK; 12-04-2021 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 12-04-2021, 02:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: Marvel vs Ampco Oiler

nKaminar:
no, do not mix with two-stroke oil. MMO pure is right!

Mike:Thanks Mike for the interesting file. I will struggle to translate and understand that.
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