Hydraulic Brake Conversion

[Jim Brierley]

Originally Posted by 8EL

All backing plates need to be rotated if installing the wheel cylinder on top. Otherwise the cylinder will fall directly in line with the spring mounting strut. Les Andrew's book called for it to be rotated 16 degrees which was not enough as can be seen in the pictures sent. The flare nut would not even clear the strut to start it in in the cylinder. If this conversion was being done without rotating the backing plate, then they were swapped side to side allowing plenty of room, but they would then be on the bottom with the bleeder on the bottom. Which I was trying to get away from....

I always have used steel line and double flared connections on brake lines.

All??? Not true, it's just a little tight, I've done it, you probably have not?

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

All??? Not true, it's just a little tight, I've done it, you probably have not?

What have you done? Are you saying that on the Ford Model A that you mounted a 39-48 backing plate with the large wheel cylinder piston to the front of the car, on the top (12 O'clock position) of the axle in the holes provided for on the stock backing plate?

That would put the port about .500" away from the spring mounting strut.....a little tight?

[rotorwrench]

I was referring to the way the spring was mounted. Model A & T were spring over axle. Later Bs and early V8 Fords all had spring behind the axle for passenger cars and light commercials. This is in reference to rear axles only.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

All??? Not true, it's just a little tight, I've done it, you probably have not?

Snug, no problem...

J

[Jim Brierley]

Originally Posted by 8EL

What have you done? Are you saying that on the Ford Model A that you mounted a 39-48 backing plate with the large wheel cylinder piston to the front of the car, on the top (12 O'clock position) of the axle in the holes provided for on the stock backing plate?

That would put the port about .500" away from the spring mounting strut.....a little tight?

Yes! As stated, I have done this several times. To my knowledge Dennis Cling was the first to rotate the backers, prior to hat all conversions were made without rotating. Cling's conversions didn't arrive on the scene until late last Century.

[updraught]

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The Peterson Brake Systems 1962 book says to cut a notch one inch wide and half an inch high just below the wheel cylinder for clearance and "everything is kosher".
"If they are going to be retained (shock links), file a depression in the top of the spring hanger to the back side of the shock mount for the brake line to snuggle into".

[Robbie Horn]

I put front & rear hydraulic brakes off a 40 Ford car on mine. I turned the rear backing plates a 1/4 turn forward & ran the line through the rear radius rod. The large piston faces the front. I also fabbed me a battery box with the master cylinder mounted on it. I just copied the ones you can buy. Stops very good. All the parts drums, shoes, wheel & mater cylinder, hoses, springs & hardware is all new.

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Yes! As stated, I have done this several times. To my knowledge Dennis Cling was the first to rotate the backers, prior to hat all conversions were made without rotating. Cling's conversions didn't arrive on the scene until late last Century.

Ok Jim, to do this you would have had to cut a relief in the backing plate to clear the spring mounting strut. The photo attached shows the clearance of the cylinder port at 16 degrees ahead. If it were rotated to stock position it would be just peeking past the back of the shock ball. I guess you could start the line in the cylinder and then mount it. Then you would have to somehow route it away from the spring shackles, but it would be on the back side of the differential housing.

No cutting on the backing plate is required if it is rotated forward, and the issue with the spring is largely eliminated. You would however have to machine the new mounting holes, and preferably weld up and grind flush the old ones. I turned mine about 35 degrees forward and will mount the distribution block and lines on the differential as was customary on domestic vehicles for years. One fellow rotated his a full 90 degrees ahead, and ran the line through the radius rods.

Pieces on the way today, I will post what I came up with when finished.

I thank all of you for your suggestions, especially with the awareness made of NiCopp (nickel copper) brake line type. Did some checking into this, and see that it is in fact DOT approved for this application. Will have to give it a try....

[katy]

Originally Posted by Robbie Horn

I put front & rear hydraulic brakes off a 40 Ford car on mine. I turned the rear backing plates a 1/4 turn forward & ran the line through the rear radius rod. The large piston faces the front.

"The large piston faces the front". How does that work? Your photo shows the cylinder as being vertical.

[Jim Brierley]

Originally Posted by 8EL

Ok Jim, to do this you would have had to cut a relief in the backing plate to clear the spring mounting strut. The photo attached shows the clearance of the cylinder port at 16 degrees ahead. If it were rotated to stock position it would be just peeking past the back of the shock ball. I guess you could start the line in the cylinder and then mount it. Then you would have to somehow route it away from the spring shackles, but it would be on the back side of the differential housing.

No cutting on the backing plate is required if it is rotated forward, and the issue with the spring is largely eliminated. You would however have to machine the new mounting holes, and preferably weld up and grind flush the old ones. I turned mine about 35 degrees forward and will mount the distribution block and lines on the differential as was customary on domestic vehicles for years. One fellow rotated his a full 90 degrees ahead, and ran the line through the radius rods.

Pieces on the way today, I will post what I came up with when finished.

I thank all of you for your suggestions, especially with the awareness made of NiCopp (nickel copper) brake line type. Did some checking into this, and see that it is in fact DOT approved for this application. Will have to give it a try....

Cutting the backer is much easier than plugging the holes and drilling new one, plus mounting straight up leaves the bleeder at the very top. Either way works, I was merely pointing out that rotating them isn't absolutely necessary. To each his own!

[8EL]

Right Jim,to each his own, do you have any of these cars that you fit in such a manner still around? I would like to see how you routed these lines....

[8EL]

Originally Posted by katy

"The large piston faces the front". How does that work? Your photo shows the cylinder as being vertical.

The larger piston needs to face the longer shoe, which on Ford/Lockheed brakes is positioned toward the front. Undoubtedly the engineers who designed this style brake were considering the applied force of the wheel cylinder, as evidenced by the two different sized pistons. Turning it 90 degrees would put the long shoe facing down, not sure what if any negative braking affect this would have.

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Robbie Horn

I put front & rear hydraulic brakes off a 40 Ford car on mine. I turned the rear backing plates a 1/4 turn forward & ran the line through the rear radius rod. The large piston faces the front. I also fabbed me a battery box with the master cylinder mounted on it. I just copied the ones you can buy. Stops very good. All the parts drums, shoes, wheel & mater cylinder, hoses, springs & hardware is all new.

Hi, could you send a photo of the radius rod as it meets the backing plate looking from the bottom up? I am interested in the clearance between the two.....

[Robbie Horn]

Here ya go. My brakes work really good. I really wanted to go back with mechanical brakes. The pic on my avatar is my car when I got it. It was driven past being wore out. I got all the history about who & where it was bought new. It stayed in the same family for a long time. They wore it out & patched it up to keep it going as long as they could. After I got it I started looking for parts & bought 2 chassis that others bought just for the bodies. One of the chassis had these hydraulic brakes which were a lot cheaper & easier at the time to use to get my car running & drivable. I still have the original chassis & over time plan to fully rebuild/restore it with the mechanical brakes & put the body back on it. In the mean time I'm going to drive it & have fun.

[updraught]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/354948588422
A good read for 12 bucks.

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Robbie Horn

Here ya go. My brakes work really good. I really wanted to go back with mechanical brakes. The pic on my avatar is my car when I got it. It was driven past being wore out. I got all the history about who & where it was bought new. It stayed in the same family for a long time. They wore it out & patched it up to keep it going as long as they could. After I got it I started looking for parts & bought 2 chassis that others bought just for the bodies. One of the chassis had these hydraulic brakes which were a lot cheaper & easier at the time to use to get my car running & drivable. I still have the original chassis & over time plan to fully rebuild/restore it with the mechanical brakes & put the body back on it. In the mean time I'm going to drive it & have fun.

THANK YOU! I was concerned with the clearance between the backing plate and the radius rod. Your picture shows this clearance....Thanks again.

How did you look up the history on your car? Being the age that they are their liniage could be quite extensive....

[Russf58]

Originally Posted by 8EL

Yes, if you move it to the opposite side, you will have to locate it on the bottom to maintain the larger wheel cylinder piston towards the front of the car. That is what whomever first installed these type brakes on my car did.

I don't have any experience with this particular application but in regards to the wheel cylinder orientation, I suspect that the important consideration is the relationship of the larger piston to the direction of rotation of the brake drum rather than the actual front of the vehicle. Therefore, swapping sides would not be an option but rotation of the backing plate and wheel cylinder to any location on the proper side would be acceptable.

[tinkirk]

Comman sense
It’s not rocket science
Unless you’re going to use the oem shock mounts
Cut them off and run the backing plates straight up as they were designed
End off issues
Just saying


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robbie Horn]

Originally Posted by 8EL

THANK YOU! I was concerned with the clearance between the backing plate and the radius rod. Your picture shows this clearance....Thanks again.

How did you look up the history on your car? Being the age that they are their liniage could be quite extensive....

The way I found the history on my car was the person that bought it from the family that bought it new. He personally knew the family. When the car was bought new the owners lived in Mart Texas. The car had been sold to 4 different people before I bought it. The person that bought it from the family knows me & he also knows the guy I bought it from. When he found out that I had it he told me the history about it. When I got it it had a 1954 Texas Inspection sticker on the windshield. That was the last time it was driven. by 1954 it was wore smooth out. The family that bought it new lived in the country & would use it to haul vegetables to town to sell. They would put the vegetables in metal 5 gallon buckets in the rumble seat. There was bucket dents all around the rumble seat area.lol Also the rear floor was rusted out because they would pour water on the vegetables to keep them fresh after they loaded them into the car. Somewhere I have a copy of the original title but can't find it right now. I looked.lol Was going to post a pic of it. The car was in pretty bad shape when I got it. I live in Axtell Texas which it about 10 miles from Mart Texas where the family lived that bought it new. The 2nd owner lives in Mart Texas where the car spent all it's life. The 3rd owner lives in Hillsboro texas which is about 30 miles from me, The 4 th owner lives in Robinson Texas which is about 20 miles from me. I have just driven it around Axtell & into Waco. As far as I know the car has never been out of this area unless the original owners took it on a trip.

[Robbie Horn]

Here is a current pic of it. We really enjoy riding around in it.