The Ford Barn

Tony Hillyard · 01-11-2018, 05:23 AM

Good morning everyone,

Both my Model A's are early 1928. A Tudor and a Standard Roadster. Both have multi-disc clutches.

The Roadster transmission makes a noise like a banshee in 1st and 2nd gears. Enough to require a visit to the dentist! Top gear is beautifully quiet. So decided to rebuild the transmission with all new parts from Snyder's. As the transmission has a multi-disc clutch the main drive gear is different. It has a screw thread on the front to lock the multi-disc set up in place. I am told that these main drive gears have not been remade so they are not available new.

I have checked the main drive gear on my transmission and the teeth look very worn. I'm not sure if this would contribute to the terrible noise, but it can't help.

Has anyone got a respectable (usable) main drive gear for a multi-disc clutch that they would sell me? Perhaps someone has up-dated their transmission and fitted a single plate clutch...... in consequence they have some multi-plate clutch parts available.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

Synchro909 · 01-11-2018, 05:54 AM

Maybe this guy can help.
www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236960

Tony Hillyard · 01-11-2018, 06:06 AM

That's very kind Synchro, but that is me!

All the best

Tony

1crosscut · 01-11-2018, 08:32 AM

Have you pulled the roller bearings out of the transmission yet? Bad ones can make 1st and 2nd quite noisy.

Tony Hillyard · 01-11-2018, 09:23 AM

Hello Dave,

Last year I took the transmission apart and just changed all the bearings for new ones. Hoping that might solve the terrible noise problem (always the optimist!) Needless to say the terrible whine is still very much still there. Hence all the new parts at great expense!!!

Tony Hillyard · 01-11-2018, 10:07 AM

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This is what I am up against folks. Serious wear!!!!

Fullraceflathead · 01-11-2018, 11:37 AM

That will make a lot of noise worn like that.

ursus · 01-11-2018, 12:22 PM

If the input teeth are that bad, what do the corresponding cluster gear teeth look like? You may need to replace that as well.

juke joint johnny · 01-11-2018, 01:37 PM

Try Bert's , Tony , Always very helpful

Synchro909 · 01-11-2018, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Hillyard

That's very kind Synchro, but that is me!

All the best

Tony

I talk to myself all the time. May be you could do the same. You might be able to help you.

SeaSlugs · 01-11-2018, 06:32 PM

Did you also replace the cluster shaft? Yea not the best gear teeth ive ever seen. If the cluster gear teeth are upset that can cause some funky problems as well. Are you using the proper lube? That thick stuff should cushion between the teeth.

I DO know for a fact if your input or output shaft bearings have a bad ball it can make a clunking chipped tooth type of noise...

Tom Wesenberg · 01-12-2018, 01:47 AM

My first check would be the roller bearing and race surfaces between the input and output shafts. That bearing is out of play in third gear, so no noise, but a small defect can make the tranny sound like a broke down threshing machine in first and second gear. That was the case with my tranny when I bought the car. Your input drive gear does show some wear, but with the right gear lube I don't see it making a lot of noise.

My second check would be the bearings inside the cluster gear, as well as the wear surfaces for them.

Tony Hillyard · 01-12-2018, 02:58 AM

Synchro,

I also talk to myself all the time. It's the only sensible conversation I get!!!!

SeaSlugs,

I only replaced all the bearings last time. So this time it will be replace everything. It is impossible to buy 600w oil round here. US vendors will not ship it outside North America. I contacted Castrol Oil in the UK. They say their D 140 is the modern equivalent. I bought this and tried that, same terrible noise. I tried the D 140 plus some Lucas oil additive, still the same.

So nothing for it but to replace everything with new. That's where I am at the moment. Hence, as they are not available new, my quest for the best main drive gear I can find.

Tom,

I take your point about bearings, but as I replaced them all I hoped they would be OK, so I am assuming it is a gear face problem. Now having had another good look at the main drive gear (per my picture) I am clutching at straws, to continue at you thrashing machine theme. So I bought new interior complete, another new set of bearings, new gears, new shafts, it's just a good replacement main drive gear that I lack.

Thanks to everyone for all their suggestions. I will get their in the end!!!

Tony

updraught · 01-12-2018, 05:06 AM

What condition is the multi disc clutch in?

Tony Hillyard · 01-12-2018, 06:36 AM

up draught,

The multi-disc seems in excellent condition. I have done quite a few miles/Kilometers in both my early 1928 Model A'a. They both have multi-disc clutches. They are a joy to drive. That is one of the reasons I want to retain them.

john charlton · 01-12-2018, 06:44 AM

I know you know this but just in case the multi disc clutch pack is a bomb, without special tools the spring pressure upon release would definately spoil your day and maybe your teeth as well . I think the noise is not only from the input shaft which actually is not that worn the spline noses are good enough I have seen far worse and no craters in the gears I do have a good input shaft which right now I cant locate but you can have it for free if I find it (I really do need to have a clearout!!!)I am in England so postage to France would not be much as we are still in the EU !!!

John in Sunny morning Suffolk County England .

Tony Hillyard · 01-12-2018, 07:41 AM

Good afternoon John,

That is really very kind of you. I will keep my fingers crossed that you find that shaft.

I did read about the requirement for a press to dismantle the multi-disc unit. Having broken more than enough teeth motorcycle racing in my youth, I don't need that experience again!

The price of the postage to France would be a pleasure. I might even include a bottle of Calvados!

Regards

Tony

juke joint johnny · 01-12-2018, 09:16 AM

Tony

O'Neils vintage Ford in the UK sells 600 W oil and Morris oil co. sells Steam oil
which is very similar I have used that with good results.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-12-2018, 10:23 AM

I used about a foot of threaded rod to release and compress my multidisc clutch. It was an easy job.
Remember that one tooth on one disc has a small chisel mark, and that disc is located closest to the tranny.
The teeth are a hair wider and that disc moves the least and keeps the rotational freeplay to a minimum.

Tony Hillyard · 01-12-2018, 11:30 AM

Thanks for that juke joint johnny, I will make a note of that for the future.

Thanks also to Tom for the info on disassembling the multi-disc clutch pack. I might just try that for the hell of it.

When I decided to rebuild the transmission in my 1928 Roadster I would normally have taken the engine and transmission out as one unit - from the front.

As an avid reader of Fordbarn I noticed several members discuss taking the trans out via the rear axle. They said it was easier. So this time I thought I would try it, just for the fun. The rear axle and trans came out sweetly. So I decided to make a video for youtube, so it might be helpful to other Ford A owners in the future.

When I have finished the transmission rebuild and re-installed it along with the rear axle, I will post the youtube video link on the "Barn".

Thanks again all.

Tony

01-11-2018, 05:23 AM	#1
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Transmission parts Good morning everyone, Both my Model A's are early 1928. A Tudor and a Standard Roadster. Both have multi-disc clutches. The Roadster transmission makes a noise like a banshee in 1st and 2nd gears. Enough to require a visit to the dentist! Top gear is beautifully quiet. So decided to rebuild the transmission with all new parts from Snyder's. As the transmission has a multi-disc clutch the main drive gear is different. It has a screw thread on the front to lock the multi-disc set up in place. I am told that these main drive gears have not been remade so they are not available new. I have checked the main drive gear on my transmission and the teeth look very worn. I'm not sure if this would contribute to the terrible noise, but it can't help. Has anyone got a respectable (usable) main drive gear for a multi-disc clutch that they would sell me? Perhaps someone has up-dated their transmission and fitted a single plate clutch...... in consequence they have some multi-plate clutch parts available. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

01-11-2018, 05:54 AM	#2
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Transmission parts Maybe this guy can help. www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236960 __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

01-11-2018, 06:06 AM	#3
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts That's very kind Synchro, but that is me! All the best Tony

01-11-2018, 08:32 AM	#4
1crosscut Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,909	Re: Transmission parts Have you pulled the roller bearings out of the transmission yet? Bad ones can make 1st and 2nd quite noisy. __________________ Dave / Lincoln Nebraska

01-11-2018, 09:23 AM	#5
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts Hello Dave, Last year I took the transmission apart and just changed all the bearings for new ones. Hoping that might solve the terrible noise problem (always the optimist!) Needless to say the terrible whine is still very much still there. Hence all the new parts at great expense!!!

01-11-2018, 11:37 AM	#7
Fullraceflathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Chillicothe, Missouri Posts: 1,176	Re: Transmission parts That will make a lot of noise worn like that. __________________ "If I asked people what they wanted they would have said faster horses." -Henry Ford "Primitive technology is not a design flaw" 1928 Ford Model A Roadster Pickup 1930 Gordon Smith Air Compressor 1941 Willy's Pickup 1960 Thunderbird-For Sale 1964 Buick Riviera 2x4 425 1965 Pontiac GTO, 455 Super Duty 2004 Dodge Ram SRT-10, V-10 Viper 1977 Charger Jet Boat,460 Ford,Jacuzzi Jet Front Engine Nostalgia Dragster,Supercharged 296 "Fullrace Flathead" Ford Engine Build up on DVD ask

01-11-2018, 12:22 PM	#8
ursus Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,375	Re: Transmission parts If the input teeth are that bad, what do the corresponding cluster gear teeth look like? You may need to replace that as well.

01-11-2018, 01:37 PM	#9
juke joint johnny Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London England Posts: 908	Re: Transmission parts Try Bert's , Tony , Always very helpful

01-11-2018, 06:32 PM	#11
SeaSlugs Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central, IL Posts: 3,968	Re: Transmission parts Did you also replace the cluster shaft? Yea not the best gear teeth ive ever seen. If the cluster gear teeth are upset that can cause some funky problems as well. Are you using the proper lube? That thick stuff should cushion between the teeth. I DO know for a fact if your input or output shaft bearings have a bad ball it can make a clunking chipped tooth type of noise... __________________ 1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!

01-12-2018, 01:47 AM	#12
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Transmission parts My first check would be the roller bearing and race surfaces between the input and output shafts. That bearing is out of play in third gear, so no noise, but a small defect can make the tranny sound like a broke down threshing machine in first and second gear. That was the case with my tranny when I bought the car. Your input drive gear does show some wear, but with the right gear lube I don't see it making a lot of noise. My second check would be the bearings inside the cluster gear, as well as the wear surfaces for them.

01-12-2018, 02:58 AM	#13
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts Synchro, I also talk to myself all the time. It's the only sensible conversation I get!!!! SeaSlugs, I only replaced all the bearings last time. So this time it will be replace everything. It is impossible to buy 600w oil round here. US vendors will not ship it outside North America. I contacted Castrol Oil in the UK. They say their D 140 is the modern equivalent. I bought this and tried that, same terrible noise. I tried the D 140 plus some Lucas oil additive, still the same. So nothing for it but to replace everything with new. That's where I am at the moment. Hence, as they are not available new, my quest for the best main drive gear I can find. Tom, I take your point about bearings, but as I replaced them all I hoped they would be OK, so I am assuming it is a gear face problem. Now having had another good look at the main drive gear (per my picture) I am clutching at straws, to continue at you thrashing machine theme. So I bought new interior complete, another new set of bearings, new gears, new shafts, it's just a good replacement main drive gear that I lack. Thanks to everyone for all their suggestions. I will get their in the end!!! Tony

01-12-2018, 05:06 AM	#14
updraught Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 1,971	Re: Transmission parts What condition is the multi disc clutch in?

01-12-2018, 06:36 AM	#15
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts up draught, The multi-disc seems in excellent condition. I have done quite a few miles/Kilometers in both my early 1928 Model A'a. They both have multi-disc clutches. They are a joy to drive. That is one of the reasons I want to retain them.

01-12-2018, 06:44 AM	#16
john charlton Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,304	Re: Transmission parts I know you know this but just in case the multi disc clutch pack is a bomb, without special tools the spring pressure upon release would definately spoil your day and maybe your teeth as well . I think the noise is not only from the input shaft which actually is not that worn the spline noses are good enough I have seen far worse and no craters in the gears I do have a good input shaft which right now I cant locate but you can have it for free if I find it (I really do need to have a clearout!!!)I am in England so postage to France would not be much as we are still in the EU !!! John in Sunny morning Suffolk County England .

01-12-2018, 07:41 AM	#17
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts Good afternoon John, That is really very kind of you. I will keep my fingers crossed that you find that shaft. I did read about the requirement for a press to dismantle the multi-disc unit. Having broken more than enough teeth motorcycle racing in my youth, I don't need that experience again! The price of the postage to France would be a pleasure. I might even include a bottle of Calvados! Regards Tony

01-12-2018, 09:16 AM	#18
juke joint johnny Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London England Posts: 908	Re: Transmission parts Tony O'Neils vintage Ford in the UK sells 600 W oil and Morris oil co. sells Steam oil which is very similar I have used that with good results.

01-12-2018, 10:23 AM	#19
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Transmission parts I used about a foot of threaded rod to release and compress my multidisc clutch. It was an easy job. Remember that one tooth on one disc has a small chisel mark, and that disc is located closest to the tranny. The teeth are a hair wider and that disc moves the least and keeps the rotational freeplay to a minimum.

01-12-2018, 11:30 AM	#20
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Transmission parts Thanks for that juke joint johnny, I will make a note of that for the future. Thanks also to Tom for the info on disassembling the multi-disc clutch pack. I might just try that for the hell of it. When I decided to rebuild the transmission in my 1928 Roadster I would normally have taken the engine and transmission out as one unit - from the front. As an avid reader of Fordbarn I noticed several members discuss taking the trans out via the rear axle. They said it was easier. So this time I thought I would try it, just for the fun. The rear axle and trans came out sweetly. So I decided to make a video for youtube, so it might be helpful to other Ford A owners in the future. When I have finished the transmission rebuild and re-installed it along with the rear axle, I will post the youtube video link on the "Barn". Thanks again all. Tony