Model A starter motor

[Tony Hillyard]

Good Morning Everyone,

May I again pick your brains? I have just bought a 1928 Standard Roadster. I'm delighted with her although I have a lot of work to do. The dealer I bought her from used a 12 volt battery and coil to mover her about his yard.

I got her home to France started her once, OK. After that the starter refuses to work. I thought, no problem I will check her over as I have done with starters and dynamos many times before. I skimmed the armature, cleaned out the segments by the book, replaced the two earth brushes that had worn at an angle (the other brushes were extremely good). Checked for short circuits with my meter, all OK. Checked the field coils with my meter, OK, checked the armature for earth, no problem there. But she still won't work.

I am completely baffled. Iv'e had problems in the past rebuilding Dynostarts but I alway managed to get them working. But this little devil has me stumped!

Any ideas please?

[DJ S]

Is only the starter the only electrical component not working or is the entire electrical system not working? Could be things as simple as the starter switch not making contact with the large copper contact on the starter or bad ground.

[Kurt in NJ]

does it draw power when you make the connection?

Were ther any small blobs od solder on the fields across from the commutator?----I have seen the armature winding to commutator connections go open due to age and overheating ( I usually resolder these connections during a rebuild, it takes a large soldering iron, I use a 600watt iron for this)

Have you put power directly to the post without having the switch there

if you put power to the starter and carefully turn the shaft does it try any to turn?

The mica between the commutator segments is not undercut on american starters because it has hard copper brushes, some european starters have soft carbon/copper starter brushes---they get undercut (Bosch,Marelli,ParisRhone etc)

Are the ground brushes in the uninsulated brush holders, the field ones in the insulated holders--

Too much paint?----if the ends of the field housing are painted , and the end plates painted where they make contact to the field housing it may not ground to the end plate, the end plate may not ground to the flywheel housing ----in the quest for pretty and rust preventing we tend to overpaint, originally the assembly was painted after completed----too much paint causes many problems with the ground path on restored cars

I use Ford starter bendixes in my Citroen Traction starters

[firechief5215]

I had the same problem. For some reason I could loosen up the starter switch screws a tiny bit and it worked fine never did figure it out but I'm not a electrical person either

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Maybe the starter gear is locked in the flywheel gear if nothing happens when you press the starter post, if that is the case I would put the shift in third gear and rock the car back and forth. If that doesn't free things up take the starter out and connect it to a battery and see if it runs as a motor.

[Tony Hillyard]

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Thank you all so far for your suggestions. I had removed the starter from the car and she is on my work bench.

I have removed the starter switch to enable me to get a good contact with the copper connector on the motor. I used a fresh 6v battery and jump leads direct to the starter (+ earth). And I tried turning the shaft while the power was connected. I have checked that the brushes are in the right brush holders. There is almost no paint on the motor.

There were no small blobs of solder on the commutator.

So I don't know what to try next!

[jimvette59]

Did you put the armature on a Growler to see if it has any open winding's ?

[Tony Hillyard]

I don't have access to a growler I'm afraid.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Remove the starter switch, connect a volt meter to the jumper cables, then read the voltage as you touch the cables to the starter. Does the voltage change, and what is the voltage?

Many jumper cables are too light to carry enough current to spin the starter.

[Synchro909]

I suggest you check he voltage while the starter is connected to see if the battery is OK or Kaput.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Synchro,
Chief would say, "NO-WINNA-KAPUT"---What he really meant was, We'll tear the dang thing COMPLETELY apart & find out WHY it failed??? THEN, throw it in the JUNK! Usually, he would challenge me to put it back together & LAFF!
Bill Sucker

[Tony Hillyard]

Thanks again for your suggestions folks. I will try them out.

In desperation, I think I will take the starter motor off my 1928 Tudor Sedan, strip it down, and side by side compare the readings with the problem motor from my "New 1928 roadster". That way I have a datum point to work from. I will let you know how I get on.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know of a very inexpensive growler that might be for sale, or even better unwanted? I'm not going to be beaten by this little devil!

Thanks again for all your kind advice.

[Tom Wesenberg]

There must be a shop around France that still has a growler to test your armature.
Is France 110 volts, like the U.S., or are they 220 volts like Germany?

[Tony Hillyard]

France is 220 volts like the UK and most of Europe. As for a workshop that still has a growler, I don't know. France is very much a country of "you must have the latest equipment", everything else goes in the bin. It's a social death wish if it is thought you use old fashioned equipment. Now a days, sadly, everything is disposable. It seems in Europe it's only us Brits that hang on to anything old. We consider that part of our culture, guarding our history.

In the past I have obtained electrical equipment from the US, so I have a 110/220 convertor in my workshop.

[katy]

I bought my used growler from a local automotive electrical shop. It was an extra one that they didn't use anymore. Ask around at your local automotive electrical shops for an old one. One never knows.
I have heard of making a growler from an old transformer. Shouldn't be too hard if you have some electrical knowledge, or know someone that does. You don't want to end up like this.

[30aadoodlebug]

Wouldn't the 12 volt electrical components on a 6 volt system fry it after a few uses? You did say he used both a 12 volt battery and coil...

[Kurt in NJ]

the Lejay manual has both testing and plans for a growler made out of old generator parts--
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3093121/LeJay-Manual

[supergnat]

Congratulations on your latest purchase. Please share photos when you have a chance. Have you tried your 28 Tudor starter in the roadster to be sure that the engine isn't too tight? Or you could try to start it with the crank.
Supergnat

[Tony Hillyard]

Your absolutely right, I was worried that the starter might been fried by 12 volts. It's why I put the 6 volt Tudor Sedan starter on the roadster and refitted the 6 volt coil and battery to move the roadster into the garage. She started fine.

As soon as I get a minute I will post some pictures of my "new roadster".

[wensum]

From my experience and what I've read, running the Model A Starter motor on 12 volts should not affect it unless it is used continuously to try to start a motor.
My 12 volt set-up has given no problems and the starter spins the high compression motor enthusiastically
Keith

[Tony Hillyard]

Good Morning all,

I've cracked it! I've found the problem. While using 12 volts on my Roadster 6 volts starter didn't actually burn it out it showed up any weakness which stopped it working. In this case it must have been worn earth brushes plus the commutator was in need of skimming. Plus it was seriously dirty in there.

The commutator was skimmed, the segments cleaned out, new earth brushes fitted, interior cleaned out but when assembled she would not work.

With the starter in pieces again I carried out all the tests I could find with the exception of a growler, I would still like to get hold of one of those for the future. Every test showed everything was fine. I took the starter off my 1928 Tudor Sedan, stripped that down and did a direct comparison. With exactly the same test results on both motors.

Now I know what the problem was I don't know whether to feel relieved or stupid.

Apart from the meter tests mentioned above, part of the problem I find with starters and dynamos is you can't easily see what is going on inside as they are so heavy and awkward. I happen to have a hole in my work bench for a turntable to enable me to turn a piece of work while I am welding it.

With the starter partly assembled I put the shaft of the motor through the hole in the bench. So the starter was fixed and vertical. This enabled me, with the help of a pocket torch, to look down through the starter. When I gently inserted the two long bolts that hold the motor together it looked like one of the long bolts was very very close to one of the solid uninsulated electrical connections at the bottom, between the the field coils.

And so it was, as the starter motor was finally assembled and tightened each time this long bolt just touched the uninsulated connection causing a direct short circuit.

So like most problems, once you who the solution it's obvious!!!

Thanks to everyone for all their hep and advice.

[Tony Hillyard]

"New Roadster" supergnat, as requested. She is 1928 Standard Roadster.[IMG]/Users/hillyardeu/Pictures/Roadster front.jpg[/IMG]/Users/hillyardeu/Pictures/Roadster rear (1).jpg

[30aadoodlebug]

Thats great news Tony! Never, ever, feel stupid with anything in this hobby. As many of the experts have posted before, "everytime a newbie does something stupid we all learn from it." Glad to hear both your cars a running again.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Starter switch screws can also touch and short the field windings if they are too long. Same thing with generator cutout mounting and terminal screws.

[Brentwood Bob]

It's called experience.

[Big hammer]

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Thanks for the update! Great news you fixed it! This helps us all learn on things some us don't work on all the time. Sorry you had to learn the hard way, but it's fixed !!!!!!